Which Flames team is real?

[Ace Rimmer]

Given that they both play in this plain of existence, BOTH are real.

*queue dramatic music*

Schrödinger's Hockey Team?

 

[Flames Fanatic]

This team struggles immensely when there is any pressure on them to win. While it's become apparent that this core has sub-par centre depth, the make-up of this team should've been sufficient to win more than 1 game. It starts with our leaders and none of them except for Mike Smith delivered. Tkachuk, Backlund, Gio, Monahan, Neal - some of them were kept completely silent and some of them were hurting the team more often than not.

It's become a meme on this board that we'd be unstoppable with even average goaltending and here we are, having wasted the best playoff goalie we've had since '07 Kipper. There's something to be said about teams maturing after playoff disappointments but I think our core is too fragile to recover on their own without a big move in the summer

Dunno if I fully agree with the bolded. There were plenty of games this season where there was pressure. First Tampa game, last game against San Jose, etc. where they showed up. Sharks sure as hell didn't show up to a must win game against us, and have a way bigger history of choking in the playoffs, but they are off to the Conference Finals.

 

[Nanuuk]

One of the Flames biggest issues this season was that they seemed to believe that they could turn it on with a flick of a switch. They could 'dog' it and turn things around in the 3rd period with an offensive blitz. Come play-off time that is a bit harder to do. I think with a couple of player changes to change the chemistry somewhat, they'll be contending next year.

 

[Nanuuk]

And the other major item that bothered me a bit, and may have hampered the team down the stretch, was Peters playing the top line 22+minutes a night. The top line had never done that before and I think they were just tired by the end of the year. Peters did that to compensate for other 'flaws' in the line-up which was no doubt why Treliving tried to make some deadline deals. That didn't work out, but the flaws remain. At least until draft day..

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I think all the Flames should have mesh inserted into their abdomen this off-season.

 

[djpatm]

I think it's more that the top line simply vanished after their hot streak ( which is now looking some what flukey) but the team was able to get by the easy part of their schedule with their depth players stepping up.

The depth players cooled off, or weren't enough to get past a team that was playing well, that led to them struggling to maintain possession or momentum which exposed the D and the team collapsed.

That's why I made this thread. This team is only a contender if the top line can replicate it's play during that 3 month stretch. If that was just a hot streak then we're probably a bubble team and still need to make serious changes to get over the hump.

 

[Nanuuk]

Well you could say that about any team's top line. The Flames had balance this season and that's what good teams do. If the top line of any other team stops producing do their other lines pick up the slack? Flames need a bit more size and production from Mr. Neal and they'll be fine.

 

[Bounces R Way]

How any one could watch that series against the Avalanche and believe that is a true reflection of this team's abilities is absolutely beyond me. I don't have an answer as to why it happened (as I am sure the players and coaching staff don't either) but the entire team got away from what made them so successful. That was a completely different team from what we saw for 95% of the season. When Mark Giordano looks completely useless out there, you know something is significantly wrong. That was one of the most disappointing and headscratching displays I have ever seen.

I still can't believe it honestly. It's not even the fact that we lost. It's how we looked doing so.

This guy nailed it. The Flames in the playoffs were not the team I watched all year. Even post all star break when they lost some games they weren't all that bad. Those 5 games against the Avalanche would all be IMO in the worst 10 games the team played all season. The Flames all season were much more often than not the team that dictated the pace of the game, did not see that against the Avalanche whatsoever, they let the Avs decide what kind of game it was going to be. It's inexplicable really to see such an about face in terms of quality of play.

I get the questions about the "mental makeup" of some of the team's core players, I think those are fair concerns to have. I don't really buy em though. My hypothesis would be that the team faced very little adversity in the regular season, straight rolled over most of their opponents usually in convincing fashion. Probably the biggest roadblocks were Smith's play to start the season, the Backlund + Hamonic injuries, and the top line + Tkachuk's slump post all star break. 3 relatively minor adversities that didn't actually require all that much digging deep or whatever to deal with. Same with Tampa, rolled all season with little to no things to fight through. Then you see teams like Columbus, Carolina, St Louis, and Colorado who had to scratch and claw their way into the playoffs overcoming all sorts of things to get there. Even Boston had a ton of injuries they had to deal with. These teams had already reached that kind of playoff level intensity well before April. Motivation isn't a switch you can just flip on or off, you got to be able to build on it gradually and ramp up. I feel the Flames as a group failed to do that, and were ousted in the first round because of it. Hopefully that sting leads them to learn a lesson and be more mentally and emotionally prepared for the second season next year. I can't lay the blame at Johnny or Sean or Peters or Treliving or whichever group of individuals feet, that was a full team loss through and through.

 

[super6646]

Well you could say that about any team's top line. The Flames had balance this season and that's what good teams do. If the top line of any other team stops producing do their other lines pick up the slack? Flames need a bit more size and production from Mr. Neal and they'll be fine.

I wouldn’t bank on it, especially if jankowski is back. We overpaid for a role player who’s good at one thing, and he’s lost the ability to do that since he’s been here. In hindsight, keeping our 2018 pick and getting ror would’ve been a much better move and actually filled a need. Tre got desperate thanks to Glen Gulutzan ruining our offense, so I can’t blame him, but damn.

 

[Tofveve]

The Flames during Nov - Jan: 28-14.
Rest of the Season and Playoffs? 25-24.

Which team is the real Flames?

The second one.

But I'm willing to give it one more year to see if we can mature into the first one for a full year. Even if it's just 8/10 of the first one.

Yeah this year blew. What a kick in the knackers.

 

[Nanuuk]

I wouldn’t bank on it, especially if jankowski is back. We overpaid for a role player who’s good at one thing, and he’s lost the ability to do that since he’s been here. In hindsight, keeping our 2018 pick and getting ror would’ve been a much better move and actually filled a need. Tre got desperate thanks to Glen Gulutzan ruining our offense, so I can’t blame him, but damn.

I can see being down on Jankowski and I can see upgrading the 3C with a more experienced player or even a youngster that may have passed him on the depth chart. I also see that Jankowski was a sophomore that increased his point production from his rookie year, won 51.9% of his face-offs, is still only 24, and is 6'4" and 212 lbs. His Corsi is about 47%, but then again most of his starts were in the D Zone. So not bad for a kid.

If anything Jankowski needs to learn to become more aggressive on the puck. Use his size to better effect.

 

[Corpus X]

Every time I see this thread I think of this.

 

[SKRusty]

Watched for pages now how people are analyzing the bottom 6. Put quit simply the bottom 6 were not where the Flames underachieved. The top 6 is another matter though and they should critiqued after such a pitiful performance. The stars on the Flames did not perform... Johnny absent, Monahan absent, Lindholm Absent, Chucky absent... Backlund, Frolik and so on. Our top 6 lost in every measure against Colorado's top 6.

None of these players should be given a pass and everybody here is going to have their scapegoat.

Personally I think Calgary needs to bring in Point or Duchene as Backlund is not a proper #2 and neither is Lindholm. In order to make this happen I am not adverse to trading Johnny to make the Flames deeper down the middle. Crap all you want but to this point nothing in Johnny's game has shown me he will be able to overcome the physicality of the playoffs... You all are going to have your choice but realistically the only opinion that matters is BT and the management of the team.

As for critiquing the D or the bottom 6 you are all off base as these are the strengths of the team.

One area that not many are mentioning is how badly Peters was out-coached and what could be done about that moving forward. To me this is likely one of the largest failings of the team in the post-season and it will be interesting how Peters and Tre handle those issues.

 

[super6646]

Watched for pages now how people are analyzing the bottom 6. Put quit simply the bottom 6 were not where the Flames underachieved. The top 6 is another matter though and they should critiqued after such a pitiful performance. The stars on the Flames did not perform... Johnny absent, Monahan absent, Lindholm Absent, Chucky absent... Backlund, Frolik and so on. Our top 6 lost in every measure against Colorado's top 6.

None of these players should be given a pass and everybody here is going to have their scapegoat.

Personally I think Calgary needs to bring in Point or Duchene as Backlund is not a proper #2 and neither is Lindholm. In order to make this happen I am not adverse to trading Johnny to make the Flames deeper down the middle. Crap all you want but to this point nothing in Johnny's game has shown me he will be able to overcome the physicality of the playoffs... You all are going to have your choice but realistically the only opinion that matters is BT and the management of the team.

As for critiquing the D or the bottom 6 you are all off base as these are the strengths of the team.

One area that not many are mentioning is how badly Peters was out-coached and what could be done about that moving forward. To me this is likely one of the largest failings of the team in the post-season and it will be interesting how Peters and Tre handle those issues.

Your not getting point for gaudreau. And any centre you do get will just offset the loss of offense on the wing, so your not really gaining anything. Moving Lindy down the middle to create another scoring line makes sense, but it means you need another winger for the top 6. Too bad all the money is tied up in Neal and Brouwer's buyout... and same for the kings randsom we gave for Hamonic (ROR could've been had for less ffs).

As for our defense... well it definitely wasn't great, but Hamonic and Hanifin were possession nightmares and killed momentum everytime they had the puck. A combined 36CF% at all strengths is just gross.

Just as an FWI, backlund had 43 pts at ES this year. That's definitely 2nd line numbers, but I agree that overall, we need an upgrade:

Gaudreau-Monahan-Zucker?
Tkachuk-Lindholm-Dube/Neal
Bennett-Backlund-Dube/Neal
Mangiapane-Ryan-Hathaway

Giordano-Brodie
Hanifin-Hamonic
Valimaki-Andersson

 

[Nanuuk]

In the final analysis the Flames were too soft on the puck. Too many skilled players under 200 lbs. that were body checked and seemingly pushed off the puck too often (Gaudreau, Lindholm, Frolik, Mangiapane, Ryan, Brodie). The only under 200 lb forward that played with any grit was Bennett.

Guys around 200-205 weren't that tough on the puck either (Monahan, Backlund). Guys like Tkachuk and Gio were hard pressed as they're still a bit undersized. Hamonic just looked beat up.

Guys with some size were powder puffs (Neal, Jankowski, Hanifin). The only guys with size that had snarl was Hathaway and Smitty.

I realize the Flames have been built for skill and speed. And maybe the results would have been different if they played their game.

The Av's have a lot of smaller speedy players, but a lot of big and gritty. But the Flames couldn't handle:

6'4" 215 lb. Rantanen
6'0" 205 lb. Mckinnon
6'1" 215 lb. Landeskog
6'1" 221 lb. Wilson
6'3"210 lb. Soderberg
6'1" 202 lb. Brassard
6'1" 219 lb. Cole
6'4"225 lb. Johnson

All of the bigger guys made it easier I think for their smaller players.

A few Flames need to bulk up for next year - Monahan, Bennett, Jankowski come to mind. Flames may want to acquire a winger with size and speed too.

 

[Shawnofthedeadz]

As people have noted, I am a fan of splitting up Gaudreau and Monahan at times like they should have done.

I think the inexperience of Bill Peters played a large factor too. He essentially played the team differently in the playoffs than the regular season. I feel his shuffling of the lines kept the Flames dominate all season long as it was hard for teams to prepare against different combinations. In the playoffs, he refused almost to the end to make any adjustment. After all, BT focused on versatility in the off-season in part for this reason. Bill seems like a smart enough guy so I can see him fixing this going forward and being much better prepared.

Next playoffs, however, if Johnny stays invisible for another series I think he has lost my confidence that he could ever bring a team to a Stanley Cup. Personally (and while I might still be mad from the way the season ended), I thought his attitude was piss poor the entire playoffs and after being eliminated refusing to take any personal responsibility. Even Ovechkin took responsibility for the Capitals loss when I wouldn't necessarily blame either... but maybe that's why Johnny doesn't have any captaincy on this team. He needs to be a million times better than any of the series he has played.

 

[Iggys Dome]

The Flames team from Jan-Apr is the real team mixed a little bit with the Nov-Dec hot streak. I think we’re probably in the WC-2nd in the Pacific range next season. Honestly I just want us to be a playoff team next year (which I think we can definitely do).

 

[Yung Rotini]

2nd/3rd/WC and winning rounds in the playoffs >>>>>>>>>> winning conference and flopping in the playoffs

 

[Body Checker]

I think we are a 6-10 place regular season team (I think we played over our heads a bit to finish #2) and as a playoff team we are what we saw this year - first or second round and that's about it with this roster. Dube/Valimaki and a key trade for a forward (i.e Brodie out; forward in) could move us up however.

 

[Fig]

I think the premise of this question is a little off... It's a little too targeted at something and either misses other facets or forgets to separate certain facets from one another.

1. If you look at it in a vacuum, the Flames team that ended this season is on track to be similar to the Flames teams that came before it since 2015. There are significant similarities in trends for the regular season vs playoff performances of years past. Worth concerning about in terms of our core? I dunno.

2. Yes, the Flames collapsed this post season, but the hell was going on this season? All the top division teams were knocked out. There has to be some consideration for the league wide toppling of these top teams. If that's the case, then it's worth considering that this season can be both considered a similar result to years past as well as an anomaly for this season. But there's something weird going on. I think it's worth noting that I think we are entering some new era of hockey. I think gaps will get smaller and smaller and parity will become more and more real in the next few seasons. We saw it with Vegas cup run two seasons ago and the wild card domination this past playoffs. Worth disregarding? Not sure.

3. For the comment about depth, the weirdest part is that the depth played reasonably well IMO. The collapses happened more with our top 4 and top 6 and the Avs had the ability to do whatever they wanted. This might be a coaching issue. However, I have no doubt our post season rookie coach will learn from this and get better as he challenges the post season more often. Based on point 2, I think a lot of facets will suddenly get more and more important such as coaching, analysis etc. I think you can look to upgrade the depth still... but IMO it's the least of Treliving's concern.

4. The resting of players thing I think has merit. Peters mentioned it in some interviews as well. It could possibly explain #2.

 

[flamesforcup]

2nd/3rd/WC and winning rounds in the playoffs >>>>>>>>>> winning conference and flopping in the playoffs

Exactly. The playoff performance after that regular season actually makes it sting even more. I couldnt care less about the regular season the way some people here are on about it. It was a failure of a year. Even if you asked before the season would you take a first round loss to the freakin Avs in 5 games most people would say no.

 

[SKRusty]

Exactly. The playoff performance after that regular season actually makes it sting even more. I couldnt care less about the regular season the way some people here are on about it. It was a failure of a year. Even if you asked before the season would you take a first round loss to the freakin Avs in 5 games most people would say no.

I will take a 16th place club that makes it to the 3rd round minimum every time over any more division, conference or presidents trophy titles. I will take the team leader's putting up 65-70 points in the regular season if we are winning cups. I will take 45 2-1 wins all season long as long as we go deep into the playoffs.

The next time I see a Flames team in the playoffs I want to see a complete compete level battling for everything. I am tired of the regular season Prima Donnas fading into the background when the post-season starts.

This teams futility makes me wish for a team of character like the 2004 Flames. There was more pleasure derived from 2004 than the last 5 years in Calgary combined. At least there was real hope for the better part of 7 years after that run. Right now all there is a the resounding thud of crushed expectations.

 

[super6646]

I will take a 16th place club that makes it to the 3rd round minimum every time over any more division, conference or presidents trophy titles. I will take the team leader's putting up 65-70 points in the regular season if we are winning cups. I will take 45 2-1 wins all season long as long as we go deep into the playoffs.

The next time I see a Flames team in the playoffs I want to see a complete compete level battling for everything. I am tired of the regular season Prima Donnas fading into the background when the post-season starts.

This teams futility makes me wish for a team of character like the 2004 Flames. There was more pleasure derived from 2004 than the last 5 years in Calgary combined. At least there was real hope for the better part of 7 years after that run. Right now all there is a the resounding thud of crushed expectations.

What can the team do exactly? Its not like most of the team wasn't trying out there. Hamonic busted his ass but sucked chunks, it happens. Giordano had all the heart in the world but looked average. The only player that could be argued as coasting and uninspired is Monahan (and yes, his game 5 response when Gaudreau was being harassed was very telling in my eyes as to how pathetic his second half in general was), otherwise, these guys gave it there all. There will come a day when we make it deep, but the fanbase has to understand that heads cannot roll every time these guys fail.

 

[SKRusty]

What can the team do exactly? Its not like most of the team wasn't trying out there. Hamonic busted his ass but sucked chunks, it happens. Giordano had all the heart in the world but looked average. The only player that could be argued as coasting and uninspired is Monahan (and yes, his game 5 response when Gaudreau was being harassed was very telling in my eyes as to how pathetic his second half in general was), otherwise, these guys gave it there all. There will come a day when we make it deep, but the fanbase has to understand that heads cannot roll every time these guys fail.

You have obviously been watching a different team. NONE of the top 6 forwards or the top 4 d-men rose to the occasion and to add to that Gaudreau, Backlund, Frolik, Chucky and Brodie have been noticeably absent in the last 3 series. The only player that has brought it for each of those series is the much maligned Sam Bennett.

If a person is going to sit here and judge players on how games are played (Neal, Smith, Brodie, and at times Sam during the regular season.) then the same must be applied when the stars of the team fail to provide any traction in the post season.

For my part I want players that are not looking to the ref at every slash, hook, hit, or instance of interference and rather fights through the perceived injustices to make a difference despite things not always being "fair". The toxicity of certain players attitudes on the ice, bench and dressing room in the playoffs has to be examined and addressed. When your stars are leading this way one has to wonder if the Flames will ever find success.

 

[flamesforcup]

What can the team do exactly? Its not like most of the team wasn't trying out there. Hamonic busted his ass but sucked chunks, it happens. Giordano had all the heart in the world but looked average. The only player that could be argued as coasting and uninspired is Monahan (and yes, his game 5 response when Gaudreau was being harassed was very telling in my eyes as to how pathetic his second half in general was), otherwise, these guys gave it there all. There will come a day when we make it deep, but the fanbase has to understand that heads cannot roll every time these guys fail.

Personally i think if we just stay the same and upgrade Monahan alone we can win. Yes thats how big of an impact i think Monahan had on the series. I saw Gaudreau try at least but when ur surrounded 4 v 1 with your centre no where in sight its hard to get going. If we go into next year with Monahan as our #1c again im just gonna assume another quick first round exit.