Where Would Matthews Rank on His Team's Depth Chart if Spezza, Tavares, Thornton Were at Their Peaks

[Sidney the Kidney]

League wide placement isn't a perfect indicator but everybody that seasons plays under the same circumstances. If you want to compare them individually and take Mackinnon then sure, I think they played in similar circumstances on their respective teams. If you want to argue Mackinnon ahead because there's a big enough difference in production then sure, there's a case there, not going to fault the argument there when there's a 20-30 point difference despite scoring era.

Not the same for Matthews vs Tavares, Matthews plays on a significantly better team and was only on pace to outscore Tavares by 7 points. Tavares outscored his next highest teammate by 35 points. Scoring has opened up significantly, every player will look better when there's more power plays and smaller goalie equipment. Not seeing an argument for a guy who finished on pace for 94 points in 2020 in 9th place over a 2nd place finish in 2015 with 87 points.

Disagreement about that season of Tavares' aside, I also think you have to look at the question of the poll. Peak seasons, plural. Even IF I granted you that one season where he finished second for the Art Ross as being better than Matthews, I think the production Matthews has put up the past 3 seasons running is better than any three consecutive stretch Tavares had in his peak. And just like Tavares missing out on the Art Ross by 1 point in 2015, Matthews missed out on the Rocket this past year by 1 goal.

Plus, Matthews' defensive performance last year was better than any defense Tavares played during his peak years. Tavares was a one-dimensional offensive player, bad defensive player for much of his time with the Islanders. He started to improve later on, but his offense took a hit in the process. And even now I'd say Tavares is "average" at best defensively, whereas I think Matthews has shown to be above average.

 

[RussianRacket]

3 behind Thornton and Tavares

 

[Garthinater]

Disagreement about that season of Tavares' aside, I also think you have to look at the question of the poll. Peak seasons, plural. Even IF I granted you that one season where he finished second for the Art Ross as being better than Matthews, I think the production Matthews has put up the past 3 seasons running is better than any three consecutive stretch Tavares had in his peak. And just like Tavares missing out on the Art Ross by 1 point in 2015, Matthews missed out on the Rocket this past year by 1 goal.

Plus, Matthews' defensive performance last year was better than any defense Tavares played during his peak years. Tavares was a one-dimensional offensive player, bad defensive player for much of his time with the Islanders. He started to improve later on, but his offense took a hit in the process. And even now I'd say Tavares is "average" at best defensively, whereas I think Matthews has shown to be above average.

From the OP:

"If all four were at their best currently, where would Matthews slot in on the C depth chart?"

It doesn't say anything about "peak seasons".

Matthews, so far, has not reached jt or spezza.

 

[Sky04]

Disagreement about that season of Tavares' aside, I also think you have to look at the question of the poll. Peak seasons, plural. Even IF I granted you that one season where he finished second for the Art Ross as being better than Matthews, I think the production Matthews has put up the past 3 seasons running is better than any three consecutive stretch Tavares had in his peak. And just like Tavares missing out on the Art Ross by 1 point in 2015, Matthews missed out on the Rocket this past year by 1 goal.

Plus, Matthews' defensive performance last year was better than any defense Tavares played during his peak years. Tavares was a one-dimensional offensive player, bad defensive player for much of his time with the Islanders. He started to improve later on, but his offense took a hit in the process. And even now I'd say Tavares is "average" at best defensively, whereas I think Matthews has shown to be above average.

Peak seasons make it even easier for Tavares. Tavrares had 47 in 48, 66 in 59 then 86 in 82, which are all top-20 scoring seasons and a top-2 all in lower scoring years than Matthews with less support, Matthews in the last 3 years has only broken into the top-20 in points/PPG ONCE.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

Definitely ahead of Tavares. Tavares is still in his prime right now and we can see every night that Matthews is significantly better. I'd go with #2 behind Thorton obviously.

 

[joe dirte]

Definitely ahead of Tavares. Tavares is still in his prime right now and we can see every night that Matthews is significantly better. I'd go with #2 behind Thorton obviously.

Tavares was a Hart finalist.

 

[joe dirte]

I think most people agree Thornton is 1, spezza is 4, it's just a matter of the middle order.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

Tavares was a Hart finalist.

Good for him. Jamie Benn won the Art Ross, I doubt many consider him a better player than Matthews despite having had a better career high season in terms of accolades. It's really not that simple, Matthews is better at ice hockey. Quality of competition obviously plays a role. I saw JT hit career highs with the Leafs, I can tell you Matthews is clearly the better player IMO from what I've seen.

 

[joe dirte]

Good for him. Jamie Benn won the Art Ross, I doubt many consider him a better player than Matthews despite having had a better career high season in terms of accolades. It's really not that simple, Matthews is better at ice hockey. Quality of competition obviously plays a role. I saw JT hit career highs with the Leafs, I can tell you Matthews is clearly the better player IMO from what I've seen.

i think you pretty heavily underestimate what it took to drag around that abortion of an Islanders roster, and score 38 goals, 86 points, pretty much singlehandedly, first on his team in points by 35 points. Matthews is a great player, and may get to that level one day, but I highly doubt you have anywhere close to that, if you drop him onto that roster, and have him playing with the likes of Anders Lee and Kyle Okposo, instead of Marner/Nylander.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

i think you pretty heavily underestimate what it took to drag around that abortion of an Islanders roster, and score 38 goals, 86 points, pretty much singlehandedly, first on his team in points by 35 points. Matthews is a great player, and may get to that level one day, but I highly doubt you have anywhere close to that, if you drop him onto that roster, and have him playing with the likes of Anders Lee and Kyle Okposo, instead of Marner/Nylander.

This is an arguable position but the bolded is outrageous.I watched Phil Kessel drag deadbeats around to the tune of 37 goals and 80 points. Trust me Phil Kessel was not better than Auston Matthews.

Anyway I'm not going to spend too much time on this total hypothetical but I think hfboards fixation with linemates has been disproven time and again. Why didn't Tavres's production skyrocket with the Leafs? Tavares has played more with Marner than Matthews has.

The most compelling argument for Tavares would actually be the scoring rate of the era, but even that has been mostly buoyed by powerplay points of which Tavares collected them at a higher rate than Matthews.

Matthews is a career point per game player, who's paced 40 goals every season of his career except this year where he paced for 50. If you want to say in a vacuum Tavares had a better single season than Matthews has...I guess that's fine but I don't think that makes him the better player.

Edit: Also Matthews his 40 goals for the first time in his rookie season before scoring went up and spent his fair share of time with Conor Brown and a then-impotent Zach Hyman(who he played virtually every minute with) he would have been thrilled to have Anders Lee on his line(who I guess is some kind of slug now?).

 

[joe dirte]

This is an arguable position but the bolded is outrageous.I watched Phil Kessel drag deadbeats around to the tune of 37 goals and 80 points. Trust me Phil Kessel was not better than Auston Matthews.

Anyway I'm not going to spend too much time on this total hypothetical but I think hfboards fixation with linemates has been disproven time and again. Why didn't Tavres's production skyrocket with the Leafs? Tavares has played more with Marner than Matthews has.

The most compelling argument for Tavares would actually be the scoring rate of the era, but even that has been mostly buoyed by powerplay points of which Tavares collected them at a higher rate than Matthews.

Matthews is a career point per game player, who's paced 40 goals every season of his career except this year where he paced for 50. If you want to say in a vacuum Tavares had a better single season than Matthews has...I guess that's fine but I don't think that makes him the better player.

At almost 30 years of age he hit new highs in both goals and points.

I half agree with you that linemates don't make the difference some people pretend they do, but it still makes a difference when you're playing with Okposo and Anders Lee, and getting fed from the back end by Nick Leddy, instead of what he does now. Especially, as you point out, on the PP. It may not be what you look at first, but when the difference in production isn't huge, you still have to factor it in.

Matthews will get there, but I don't think he's gotten to the point that you can say he's accomplished what Tavares did in those days in NYI.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

At almost 30 years of age he hit new highs in both goals and points.

I half agree with you that linemates don't make the difference some people pretend they do, but it still makes a difference when you're playing with Okposo and Anders Lee, and getting fed from the back end by Nick Leddy, instead of what he does now. Especially, as you point out, on the PP. It may not be what you look at first, but when the difference in production isn't huge, you still have to factor it in.

Matthews will get there, but I don't think he's gotten to the point that you can say he's accomplished what Tavares did in those days in NYI.

Yes but as I mentioned league scoring went up as well and it's not like Tavares hit way higher totals, it was very marginal from a points perspective(2), his goal production went way up granted but he obviously took on more of a shooting center's role playing with Marner. Linemate's are worth considering certainly but they tend not to make a significant difference in elite player's production.

But anyway I guess we're maybe just approaching this with a different criteria, as I said I would concede Tavares had the best season in relation to his peers but I don't necessarily think that makes him the best player, even if we're just talking peaks. But yes I see why some would want Matthews to have a Hart nominee season before ranking him ahead.

 

[joe dirte]

Yes but as I mentioned league scoring went up as well and it's not like Tavares hit way higher totals, it was very marginal from a points perspective(2), his goal production went way up granted but he obviously took on more of a shooting center's role playing with Marner. Linemate's are worth considering certainly but they tend not to make a significant difference in elite player's production.

But anyway I guess we're maybe just approaching this with a different criteria, as I said I would concede Tavares had the best season in relation to his peers but I don't necessarily think that makes him the best player, even if we're just talking peaks. But yes I see why some would want Matthews to have a Hart nominee season before ranking him ahead.

Yeah, his point totals went up 2 from the year before, but more like 10 to 15 from his typical totals in recent years. And, funny enough, the year before, that you're saying he only went up by 2, was the first time he had a decent point scoring forward on the team, in years..... And again, career high goal totals.

Regardless, yes, he unquestionably had the best season in relation to his peers, and when you factor in the rest, I'd say the best season overall.

I suspect in a year or two the whole thing becomes moot anyway, given Matthews is still young and improving. i suspect you see a 50 goal, 100 point season, with strong 2 way play, soon enough.

 

[authentic]

We haven't even seen Matthews prime yet. Thornton was great but that would be a razor close call imo. Gun to my head Thornton as we know how dominant he was but Matthews goalscoring is other worldly. Plus he's ahead of Jumbo defensively at the same juncture in their careers. Tavares 3rd then Spezza (great player , respect).

Also ahead of him in playoff play.

 

[Sky04]

Also ahead of him in playoff play.

Thornton was able to get out of the first round in year 2. Matthews still trying 4 years in on stacked teams still trying.

 

[TheKrebsCycle]

Thornton was able to get out of the first round in year 2. Matthews still trying 4 years in on stacked teams still trying.

Stacked offensively *

 

[authentic]

Thornton was able to get out of the first round in year 2. Matthews still trying 4 years in on stacked teams still trying.

His team was you mean. Thornton has never been over a point per game in a single playoff run in his 17 year playoff career. Matthews has atleast already done that.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Disagreement about that season of Tavares' aside, I also think you have to look at the question of the poll. Peak seasons, plural. Even IF I granted you that one season where he finished second for the Art Ross as being better than Matthews, I think the production Matthews has put up the past 3 seasons running is better than any three consecutive stretch Tavares had in his peak. And just like Tavares missing out on the Art Ross by 1 point in 2015, Matthews missed out on the Rocket this past year by 1 goal.

Plus, Matthews' defensive performance last year was better than any defense Tavares played during his peak years. Tavares was a one-dimensional offensive player, bad defensive player for much of his time with the Islanders. He started to improve later on, but his offense took a hit in the process. And even now I'd say Tavares is "average" at best defensively, whereas I think Matthews has shown to be above average.

I would have also mentioned that Matthews only played in 70 games during the 2019-20 season due to the regular season ending early because of Covid-19, which is why he finished 1 goal behind Ovechkin and Pastrnak for the Rocket Richard. If he remained healthy for the Leafs last 12 games he could have possibly won the award himself or we could have seen a three way tie, Matthews sharing it with Ovechkin or Matthews sharing it with Pastrnak. At the very least he was going to score 50+ goals if he played in all 82 games.

When Tavares finished 2nd by 1 point for the Art Ross in the 2014-15 season, at least he was able to play in all 82 games.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Toss up between him and Tavares for #2.

Thornton's peak crushes everybody else. Spezza doesn't belong here.