Where does Ovie now rank all time?

[daver]

I have often in my sparse posts criticized players who have "half" careers. It's not a very popular opinion here, where eyetest by geriatrics who were in their childhood in their heroes haydays is king. You just have to wait it off.

The number of games really shouldn't matter. It should not be that hard to line up a players best seasons against another's. A lack of games or full seasons will be reflected in that comparison. Orr vs. any other defenseman sees him dominate with likely the best 5, 6 or 7 or more best seasons between the two then fall off the map after awhile given his career ended early.

There should be no denying Orr' superior talent level and accomplishments in that scenario. That it could be argued that a player like Lidstrom contributed to his team more by playing twice as long should not, IMO, overcome the significant difference in peak and the quality of prime.

But a player like Lindros, whose peak was arguably higher than Sakic's, simply did not do enough with his superior talent to warrant being ahead of him. Lindros may the best season or two between them but then Sakic would dominate the next ten or so before Lindros dropped of the map.

In a career comparison of Crosby vs. OV, you can look at their almost identical point totals and say it is a wash. If you look at the # of games played, you would see that Crosby was clearly the better per game producer and rate him above OV based on that. Some do this, some don't. I don't think it's reasonable to devalue Crosby's point totals given he played in 14% or so less games. If you want to ignore the difference in PPGs with that line of thinking, that is not indefensible but if Hart and Lindsay voting are any indication, a clearly superior per game performer is recognized.

 

[Midnight Judges]

In a career comparison of Crosby vs. OV, you can look at their almost identical point totals and say it is a wash.

Sure, if you pretend secondary assists are just as important as goals.

But here in real life Ovechkin has 46% more goals than Crosby in the same number of seasons.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I have often in my sparse posts criticized players who have "half" careers. It's not a very popular opinion here, where eyetest by geriatrics who were in their childhood in their heroes haydays is king. You just have to wait it off.

You should have more respect for your elders, sonny.

 

[The Panther]

If you want to ignore the difference in PPGs with that line of thinking, that is not indefensible but if Hart and Lindsay voting are any indication, a clearly superior per game performer is recognized.

I do think Crosby has been the better per-game performer, but it's not "clearly superior". As far as points-per-game goes, their careers currently sit at 1.29 for Cros and 1.12 for Ovi, a difference of 14 scoring points per season. 14 points per season isn't insignificant, but I don't think it proves anything in itself. Of those 14 points per season, how many are attributable to Crosby's winning face-offs on power-plays vs. the fact Ovechkin doesn't take face-offs? How many are attributable to Crosby's P.P. teammate being himself arguably as good as Ovechkin (Malkin), the type of teammate Ovechkin has never had (with apologies to Backstrom, who is good but not at Malkin's level). Who is the bigger physical presence? Etc. I'll give Crosby the edge in the per-game analysis, but it's only by a bit.

In terms of career value, I'd have to rank them about dead-even at this point. Ovechkin has silenced his critics.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Sure, if you pretend secondary assists are just as important as goals.

But here in real life Ovechkin has 46% more goals than Crosby in the same number of seasons.

"Secondary assists" as a negative always cracks me up. It's like a scarlet letter of "sorry, I don't know what I'm doing but I am espousing an opinion despite my best efforts"

In real life, the two players play different positions with different tactics, and they should be measured appropriately...they won't, but they ought to...

 

[daver]

I do think Crosby has been the better per-game performer, but it's not "clearly superior". As far as points-per-game goes, their careers currently sit at 1.29 for Cros and 1.12 for Ovi, a difference of 14 scoring points per season. 14 points per season isn't insignificant, but I don't think it proves anything in itself. Of those 14 points per season, how many are attributable to Crosby's winning face-offs on power-plays vs. the fact Ovechkin doesn't take face-offs? How many are attributable to Crosby's P.P. teammate being himself arguably as good as Ovechkin (Malkin), the type of teammate Ovechkin has never had (with apologies to Backstrom, who is good but not at Malkin's level). Who is the bigger physical presence? Etc. I'll give Crosby the edge in the per-game analysis, but it's only by a bit.

In terms of career value, I'd have to rank them about dead-even at this point. Ovechkin has silenced his critics.

I am happy to let the numbers speak for themselves but since you are not.

Of the two, Crosby has proven more he could produce at ES and on the PP, as goalscorer or as a playmaker, in a less offensive deployment than OV, with any quality of linemate, with or without Malkin playing well and/or in the lineup, while playing a responsible defensive game as required by his position, and playing a very good defensive game.

Both players are the epitome of a franchise center and winger, and I think Crosby has shown he is simply the more versatile offensive player who you can be relied on to produce regardless. This has allowed the Pens to expose weaker matchups with Malkin's line, and during their '16 Cup run, Kessel's line, and create greater depth by not always having to put their best winger (s) on Crosby's line.

Full marks to OV for removing an almost complete lack of defensive effort over the past few years but he never showed he could be a peak offensive performer while playing a solid all around game.

 

[daver]

In terms of career value, I'd have to rank them about dead-even at this point. Ovechkin has silenced his critics.

In terms of Hart and Lindsay recognition, their regular season resumes are about dead-even. Give OV the edge in Harts because Crosby took a slapshot to the jaw. Playoffs is a clear advantage to Crosby. I don't think pointing out OV's lack of Cups and comparable deep playoff runs was a critique, it was what it was. One very solid Cup run doesn't erase the difference in points, the # of Cup runs and playoff PPGs.

 

[daver]

I do think Crosby has been the better per-game performer, but it's not "clearly superior". As far as points-per-game goes, their careers currently sit at 1.29 for Cros and 1.12 for Ovi, a difference of 14 scoring points per season. 14 points per season isn't insignificant, but I don't think it proves anything in itself. Of those 14 points per season, how many are attributable to Crosby's winning face-offs on power-plays vs. the fact Ovechkin doesn't take face-offs? How many are attributable to Crosby's P.P. teammate being himself arguably as good as Ovechkin (Malkin), the type of teammate Ovechkin has never had (with apologies to Backstrom, who is good but not at Malkin's level).

In Crosby's two Art Ross winning seasons and his two other seasons where it is generally accepted he would have won the Art Ross (10/11 and 12/13) Crosby's PPG was 1.47 while Malkin's was 1.08. He had the most ES points in 13/14, and his ESP/game pace in his two partials seasons was many tiers above 2nd, bigger than the gap in PPG over 2nd best. In 06/07, Crosby had 66 PP points while Malkin had 40, so not too much can be attributed to Malkin in that year.

In OV's four best seasons, ones where he won the Hart and/or Lindsay, his PPG was 1.38 while his linemate Backtrom's PPG was 1.04.

So Malkin was not that much more productive than Backstrom, nor was he Crosby's linemate, and Crosby is the runaway leader in career ESP/game of his era.

Pointing to Malkin and the PP is a false flag,IMO.

 

[Sentinel]

1. I don't think pointing out OV's lack of deep playoff runs was a critique.
2. One very solid Cup run doesn't erase the difference in the # of Cup runs.

Congratulations, you managed to contradict yourself in adjacent sentences. So is "Ovy's lack of deep runs" (relative to Crosby) a flaw or not?

 

[psycat]

"Secondary assists" as a negative always cracks me up. It's like a scarlet letter of "sorry, I don't know what I'm doing but I am espousing an opinion despite my best efforts"

In real life, the two players play different positions with different tactics, and they should be measured appropriately...they won't, but they ought to...

Sure, I mean that said Ovechkin might be the greatest of all time in one department, Crosby is nowhere close to that.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Sure, I mean that said Ovechkin might be the greatest of all time in one department, Crosby is nowhere close to that.

Effectively hiliting the gaps that favour Crosby and about 50 other players over Ovechkin in virtually all the other departments.

 

[Midnight Judges]

In OV's four best seasons, ones where he won the Hart and/or Lindsay, his PPG was 1.38 while his linemate Backtrom's PPG was 1.04.

Indeed Ovechkin made Backstrom a much better player. Same goes for everyone else who ever played on Ovechkin's line. In one of those seasons Backstrom had 101 points. Does anyone believe Nick Backstrom is a 100 point player on his own without Ovechkin?

Backstrom had the luxury of getting tons of secondary assists on plays made by Ovechkin. Backstrom leads the NHL in secondary assists since 09-10. He is a very good player, but his stats are inflated by being the guy who passes to the guy who passes to the greatest goal scorer of all time.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Effectively hiliting the gaps that favour Crosby and about 50 other players over Ovechkin in virtually all the other departments.

Not sure what you mean by "departments," as if scoring goals - which is the whole point of the game - constitutes a mere one of many departments. Since 05-06, Ovechkin leads the NHL by huge margins in even strength goals (32% over the second best), power play goals (72%), and overtime goals (38%). If these are all considered 1 department, then you must have hockey broken down into huge categories that are so broad as to be unhelpfully vague.

Ovechkin is far superior to Crosby in terms of physicality (and almost any other player in the history of the game). Crosby fans like to pretend physicality is an insubstantial part of the game but when Ovechkin is on the ice, opposing players need to have awareness in ways where Crosby is a complete non-factor. It creates space, and this additional space is evident in the stats of the players who play with Ovechkin and are elevated by Ovechkin's play. Ovechkin is also an enforcer in this regard. Watch next time someone puts a hit on Nick Backstrom. See how long it takes for Ovechkin to put them on their arse (typically not very long).

At his peak Ovechkin was as good a skater as almost anyone, and light years better than anyone else who weighed 230+ pounds. He's skated circles around Erik Karlsson on numerous occasions. I can provide highlights if you like.

Ovechkin is excellent at passing the puck. He is top eleven in assists over the course of his career despite focusing on goal scoring and being asked to shoot first by every coach he's ever had. You don't get 500 assists in today's NHL by sucking at passing - especially while leading the NHL in goals by a whopping 46% over everyone else.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Not sure what you mean by "departments," as if scoring goals - which is the whole point of the game - constitutes a mere one of many departments. Since 05-06, Ovechkin leads the NHL by huge margins in even strength goals (32% over the second best), power play goals (72%), and overtime goals (38%). If these are all considered 1 department, then you must have hockey broken down into huge categories that are so broad as to be unhelpfully vague.

Ovechkin is far superior to Crosby in terms of physicality (and almost any other player in the history of the game). Crosby fans like to pretend physicality is an insubstantial part of the game but when Ovechkin is on the ice, opposing players need to have awareness in ways where Crosby is a complete non-factor. It creates space, and this additional space is evident in the stats of the players who play with Ovechkin and are elevated by Ovechkin's play. Ovechkin is also an enforcer in this regard. Watch next time someone puts a hit on Nick Backstrom. See how long it takes for Ovechkin to put them on their arse (typically not very long).

At his peak Ovechkin was as good a skater as almost anyone, and light years better than anyone else who weighed 230+ pounds. He's skated circles around Erik Karlsson on numerous occasions. I can provide highlights if you like.

Ovechkin is excellent at passing the puck. He is top eleven in assists over the course of his career despite focusing on goal scoring and being asked to shoot first by every coach he's ever had. You don't get 500 assists in today's NHL by sucking at passing - especially while leading the NHL in goals by a whopping 46% over everyone else.

Google synonyms for departments. Aspects, catagories, facets, etc.Take your pick.

Point of any game or sport is winning. Scoring a goal, requires at most 10 seconds of ice time.Less than 1% of a players total ice time. So a player has to do many other things to contribute to winning. Various defensive and offensive contributions come into play.

Rebound assists are not a sign of passing skills. Ovechkin is actually 12th:

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Including 4 players who started 0ne or two seasons after he did. Still Ovechkin is 265 assists behind Thornton

Closest comparable would be Bobby Hull from 1957-58 thru 1971-72, who is 8th:

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Hull is 78 assists behind the leader Howe.

 

[Michael Farkas]

It reads like a bad infomercial...

My favorite parts:
- Crosby's "insubstantial" physicality, even though his most physical play is used to create space for himself and protect the puck, which, pound-for-pound, he does as well as anyone. Ovechkin is best known for charging defensemen after the puck is gone, pulling him even further out of position than he already normally is defensively. Ovechkin gets a lot of mileage out of hits that don't separate players from the puck often enough. I do respect his physicality and what it can represents, especially to softer d-men...but it gets dressed up quite a bit on the main board (and now is dragging around here, unfortunately).

- "Skated circles around Erik Karlsson" that said, Ovechkin's two- and three-step quickness is insane, especially for a player who isn't really a gym rat (and I'm not saying that with a negative connotation)...he is just gifted in terms of getting off the blocks. And with this size, he can generate a lot of inertia.

- "Top eleven assists" actually elicited a chuckle from me. Ovechkin generates a lot of assists out of just shooting a ton stuff at the net...that's not a bad thing. But his NZ and offensive zone passing are not noteworthy at all for a player of his ilk. He's a shooter. One of the best ever. That's where that lies. In the rarefied air that he's in, his passing is not a plus...not with the company he keeps these days. You can knock secondary assists and all that, that just shows a lack of fundamental knowledge of the game, that's fine...but to try to pimp out "Ovechkin the playmaker" when we've seen all of his games is really a detriment to the overall pro-Ovechkin argument. He's a got great case to be great, don't highlight things that he's not other-worldly at and then package them as other-worldly...

 

[bobholly39]

Sure, I mean that said Ovechkin might be the greatest of all time in one department, Crosby is nowhere close to that.

Definitely agree with that. But it should have no bearing on overall ranking though - not sure if you were implying it should.

Crosby's great because he's pretty damn great at everything. He's not the best at any 1 thing (in fact he may not be top 5 in any actual category) - but he's near the top in a majority of categories, enough to make his overall resume/career stand out a lot. Beliveau is maybe a bit like that too.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Google synonyms for departments. Aspects, catagories, facets, etc.Take your pick.

The problem with these "one dimensional" arguments - in addition to being utterly false - is that people never define what they think the dimensions are.

 

[Midnight Judges]

You can knock secondary assists and all that, that just shows a lack of fundamental knowledge of the game, that's fine...

The NHL didn't decide to count secondary assists based on merit. They started counting them because defensemen wanted to be able to accumulate points because this would help them in contract negotiations. Secondary assists were created because of $$$, and absolutely not due to some 'fundamental knowledge of the game.' What you think is knowledge is really nothing more than mindlessly accepting tradition.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Also Ovechkin is far more physical. For example, in the Lightning series physicality is what turned the series to the Caps favor. Game 6 Ovechkin was physically dominant in ways Crosby never could be. He had an amazing game, and didn't register a point.

...Ovechkin gets lauded for hits that often take him out of the developing play (a great example is game 6 vs TB in this year's Conference Final...possibly Ovechkin's worst game of the playoffs since game 1 vs CBJ...I thought for certain he and the Caps had fallen back on their old unsuccessful ways and were going to come undone...Holtby didn't allow it to happen though).

The levels of pettiness and butt hurt here are monumental.

A poster is willing to say things he knows are false but still wants to be taken seriously.

 

[Canadiens1958]

The NHL didn't decide to count secondary assists based on merit. They started counting them because defensemen wanted to be able to accumulate points because this would help them in contract negotiations. Secondary assists were created because of $$$, and absolutely not due to some 'fundamental knowledge of the game.' What you think is knowledge is really nothing more than mindlessly accepting tradition.

Totally false. Initially no assists were awarded but this resulted in individual as opposed to team play.

Initially in the NHL, only direct passing assists were awarded. Slightest deflection,no assist. No rebound assists of any kind were awarded until the 1930s.

With the introduction of the center red line, secondary assists became more common with the transition game,head manning the puck growing in popularity. By the end of the O6 era all kinds of deflection assists were awarded.

 

[Canadiens1958]

The problem with these "one dimensional" arguments - in addition to being utterly false - is that people never define what they think the dimensions are.

Defined since the origins of organized hockey.

 

[Merya]

You should have more respect for your elders, sonny.

My elders are questionable since they might be demented. Im old enough by closing on 50.

 

[Merya]

Called leveling the playing field for all the eras.

Yes? My protest was of you uncharactecistly putting Morenz and Shore down while defending Orr.

 

[BackToTheBasics]

"Relies on secondary assists" that one always cracks me up. Though, oddly, it doesn't look like it's being used sarcastically here...that'd be shame.

Not pictured: Crosby being far better defensively wire to wire. In fact, there's probably even more distance between the two in the playoffs...as Crosby goes full boat in the playoffs defensively whereas Ovechkin gets lauded for hits that often take him out of the developing play (a great example is game 6 vs TB in this year's Conference Final...possibly Ovechkin's worst game of the playoffs since game 1 vs CBJ...I thought for certain he and the Caps had fallen back on their old unsuccessful ways and were going to come undone...Holtby didn't allow it to happen though). Which isn't to say they're value-less, but until this year - when he settled down and matured his game - he was not overly effective unless he was shooting...of course, that one-dimension is HOF-caliber in its own right...

Most posters on HF were praising Ovechkin after game 6 which many agree was his best of the series despite not scoring. What does it tell you that you're virtually alone in thinking that it was one of his worst games of the playoffs? Is it the way you view the game or is it everyone else on here who simply don't understand the fundamentals of hockey?

 

[Michael Farkas]

People get distracted by shiny things...I can't help that.

I get what people saw, I do. He was really pumping his legs out there...it's not like he wasn't trying. He was working his bag off.

He wasn't channeling it correctly, he was playing for him. Like he always did before.

Most of this playoffs, we saw a mature Ovechkin. Actually distributing the puck in the NZ, contributing to the Caps 1-4 defense to shut down three straight rush offenses and not chasing hits out in the middle of nowhere so much. Hell, he was actually blocking shots in lanes that were his to manage.

There's a lot more to the game than setting one's hair ablaze...