When Toews was at his best, where did he rank in the NHL

[Trap Jesus]

It's not about winning an award. It's the fact that in the time period mentioned (10-15), Bergeron came top 15 in hart voting 1x. I didn't say he's not elite because he didn't win the Hart. I'm pointing out that he was never close to even being top 10. Yes all his games and seasons in that time were the same: a 55pt player who plays great D. That's not an elite player and it was reflected accurately. Again, I said finishes, not because he didn't win the awards.

He was 5th in 2013/14. Anyways, it doesn't matter. Voting for that always goes for offense. He impacts the game on such a consistent basis far more than most in the league. He won't rack up points, but he's impacting the game on a defense and possession level more than anyone. Those two-way guys are always so critical, it's not a coincidence the Cup winners almost always have a top center that impacts the game heavily on both sides of the puck.

 

[nbwingsfan]

From 09/10-14/15 (6 seasons), Bergeron never scored more than 65pts and only hit 60pts twice. He was basically 55pt player who played good defense. He wasn't "underrated", he didn't belong anywhere near the elite and that was reflected pretty clearly in award and AST finishes.

By good defense do you mean some of the best defense in the history of the NHL? Because that’s more accurate.

Scoring 60pts while also being a shutdown C is incredibly impressive

 

[nbwingsfan]

I miss seeing “ToewsEra” in these threads explaining to us why Toews was the best player in the NHL

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

He was 5th in 2013/14. Anyways, it doesn't matter. Voting for that always goes for offense. He impacts the game on such a consistent basis far more than most in the league. He won't rack up points, but he's impacting the game on a defense and possession level more than anyone. Those two-way guys are always so critical, it's not a coincidence the Cup winners almost always have a top center that impacts the game heavily on both sides of the puck.

Yes so like I said, top 15 once in that period. Yes but the elite 2 way players (Datsyuk, Kopitar) had no problem with getting top 10 offensive finishes, hart nominations, ASTs to go along with their selke level D. Why is it that Bergeron never can, especially at that time? Because like I said, he wasn't elite. A 55pt player isn't elite, I don't care how "consistent" he is or whatever you'd like to say. And the hockey world agrees, no one cared about Bergeron back then.

 

[Trap Jesus]

Yes so like I said, top 15 once in that period. Yes but the elite 2 way players (Datsyuk, Kopitar) had no problem with getting top 10 offensive finishes, hart nominations, ASTs to go along with their selke level D. Why is it that Bergeron never can, especially at that time? Because like I said, he wasn't elite. A 55pt player isn't elite, I don't care how "consistent" he is or whatever you'd like to say. And the hockey world agrees, no one cared about Bergeron back then.

He's better defensively than all of those guys.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Over the sample of the 2009-2010 season through the 2014-2015 NHL season, Toews led the NHL in Evolving Hockey's Goals Above Replacement.

Right off the bat, I'd say that he was clearly behind Datsyuk and Crosby, who were both comfortably ahead of him on a per-minute or per-game basis. I don't think anybody would seriously disagree that Toews was better than either of those players, so we can probably start off at #3 and work our way backwards from there.

Now, people will inevitably bring up points, but Toews' was 17th in points per game over this sample, and the gap between Toews and the 12th ranked player was only 0.03. Here are those players:

I think we can all agree that Giroux, Perry, Thornton, and Tavares were well behind Toews, since the offensive gap was tiny and the defensive gap was certainly much bigger in Toews' favor, and I think that we can agree that no forward who was out-scored by Toews was a better player than him, except maybe Anze Kopitar whose PPG also rounded to 0.91. That leaves Malkin, Stamkos, Ovechkin, H. Sedin, MSL, Backstrom, Kane, D. Sedin, Getzlaf, Zetterberg, and Kopitar.

The thing about Toews is that his offense is actually extremely underrated by points per game. Among those players, only Malkin, Stamkos, and the Sedins actually scored 5-on-5 points or 5-on-5 primary points at a higher rate than Toews.

The difference between Toews and these 4 is also pretty small; his scoring rate and primary scoring rate were both within 93% of every one of these players, so it's not like they were leagues ahead of him. Furthermore, outside of Malkin, the 3 ahead of him all had the benefit of playing with an elite linemate for the vast majority of this sample, while Toews played with Kane for less than half of it. I think it makes sense that GAR which adjusts for context suggests that Toews' isolated impact on his team's even strength scoring rates was higher than that of all of these players, although I think that GAR is probably selling Malkin short at the very least and maybe Stamkos as well.

It is the power play where Toews falls well behind all of these players; both because he has by far the lowest ice time and the lowest scoring rate of all of these players.

The ice time is a coach's decision that shouldn't be held against him, and while I do think the scoring rate is concerning, I think that a large portion of this is due to the role that Toews was used in on the PP; Toews spent more time in the bumper role than most of these guys, and regression analysis suggests Toews still had a strong impact on his team's PP scoring rates. His goal scoring rate was middle of the pack and close enough to everybody besides Ovechkin and Stamkos, and that's what he was mainly asked to do on the PP. I think he was probably the weakest PP player of the bunch, but I do think the gap between he and the rest of these players is overstated by these numbers; I don't think he did that much worse of a job at getting his job done on the PP than the rest of these guys did, if that makes sense.

Comparing PP and 5V5 numbers is pretty subjective, but I feel pretty comfortable saying that if you are better offensively and defensively at even strength than another player, then you are better, even if they're better on the PP, unless there is some astronomical gap on the PP, and I think Toews was far better defensively than all of these guys besides Kopitar. I don't think that there is an astronomical gap on the PP between Toews and any of these guys save for maybe Backstrom, Stamkos, and Ovechkin. However, a suspiciously large portion of Backstrom's scoring came from secondary assists, and Ovechkin/Backstrom were also far enough behind Toews offensively at 5-on-5 that for me that I think Toews was clearly better than both players.

So, that disqualifies Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kane, MSL, Getzlaf, Zetterberg, and leaves only Kopitar, Malkin, Stamkos, and the Sedins. I think the Sedins had a huge benefit from playing with one another, and both of their 5-on-5 primary scoring rates were still less than that of Toews; they only have the edge due to secondary assists which are probably largely influenced by the amount which they passed the puck to one another. Toews being better defensively out-weighs the gap in PP scoring, in my mind. I think Kopitar was actually better defensively than Toews, and this is supported by the metrics, but I think Toews was better offensively, and by a slightly bigger margin, so I'd take Toews over Kopitar. This just leaves Malkin and Stamkos, which largely comes down to personal preference. Malkin and Stamkos were probably the better offensive players, but the fact that they had lower offensive GAR at even strength, and only slightly higher scoring rates than Toews at 5v5, makes me skeptical of just how big the offensive gap really was. I'd take Toews over either player, but I can understand if somebody preferred Stamkos' insane goal scoring ability, or Malkin's dynamic offensive skills.

TL;DR I have Crosby and Datsyuk clearly ahead of Toews over this sample, but I have Toews slightly ahead of Kopitar/Malkin/Stamkos, and I have him clearly ahead of every player besides those guys. So, somewhere between 3-6, and #3 for me. (I didn't look at defenseman or goalies, but I'm confident that Toews was better than any defenseman or goalie over this sample.) Toews' offense gets really underrated due to the way that the coach used him on the PP.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but that doesn't mean it has to be logical. Toews wasn't even remotely close to Crosby and the suggestion otherwise, in my opinion, was ridiculous.

Crosby is a a top 5-10 player of all time, while Toews was maybe top 5-10 in his own era. To top it all off, this was during Crosby's prime, where it looked like he was playing with cheat codes in a video game. From the 09-10 to 14-15 seasons, Toews was 18th in total points. Yep, that's right... the player a vocal few felt was the best forward in the NHL was 18th in scoring. Crosby's PPG, during that time span, was 1.38 (miles ahead of anyone else) and Toew's PPG was .91. That is an absolutely MASSIVE divide in offense. How does Toews' defense, which was not really better than any of his two-way peers (Bergergon, Datsyuk, Kopitar, Zetterberg, etc.), make up for that difference? It doesn't.

I think Toews' reputation was an example of hockey people wanting to seem a lot smarter and more in tune than they actually were. It sounds harsh but I think it's valid. You don't have to be an aeronautical engineer or hedge fund manager to watch hockey but I think some people love to claim that they see things in the game that others don't. Perhaps, that explains why some people cling so desperately to their advanced stats. And, in Toews' case, that's where the whole "intangibles" thing came from. Toews' fanboys would frequently claim that he made up for his skill by doing all the little things that no one but the most advanced hockey minds could appreciate.

In reality, Toews was a tremendous two-way talent who deserved significant praise for his impact on the game. But there were plenty of players in NHL history that did the same thing as well or better, including several of Toews' peers.

I voted top 5 but even that isn't a given. He was certainly top 10, though.

It should also be noted that Toews almost always played with two of: Kane, Hossa, Sharp, and Saad at ES. Very few centers around the league had that luxury.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Over the sample of the 2009-2010 season through the 2014-2015 NHL season, Toews led the NHL in Evolving Hockey's Goals Above Replacement.

View attachment 345191

Right off the bat, I'd say that he was clearly behind Datsyuk and Crosby, who were both comfortably ahead of him on a per-minute or per-game basis. I don't think anybody would seriously disagree that Toews was better than either of those players, so we can probably start off at #3 and work our way backwards from there.

Now, people will inevitably bring up points, but Toews' was 17th in points per game over this sample, and the gap between Toews and the 12th ranked player was only 0.03. Here are those players:

View attachment 345192

I think we can all agree that Giroux, Perry, Thornton, and Tavares were well behind Toews, since the offensive gap was tiny and the defensive gap was certainly much bigger in Toews' favor, and I think that we can agree that no forward who was out-scored by Toews was a better player than him, except maybe Anze Kopitar whose PPG also rounded to 0.91. That leaves Malkin, Stamkos, Ovechkin, H. Sedin, MSL, Backstrom, Kane, D. Sedin, Getzlaf, Zetterberg, and Kopitar.

The thing about Toews is that his offense is actually extremely underrated by points per game. Among those players, only Malkin, Stamkos, and the Sedins actually scored 5-on-5 points or 5-on-5 primary points at a higher rate than Toews.

View attachment 345211

The difference between Toews and these 4 is also pretty small; his scoring rate and primary scoring rate were both within 93% of every one of these players, so it's not like they were leagues ahead of him. Furthermore, outside of Malkin, the 3 ahead of him all had the benefit of playing with an elite linemate for the vast majority of this sample, while Toews played with Kane for less than half of it. I think it makes sense that GAR which adjusts for context suggests that Toews' isolated impact on his team's even strength scoring rates was higher than that of all of these players, although I think that GAR is probably selling Malkin short at the very least and maybe Stamkos as well.

It is the power play where Toews falls well behind all of these players; both because he has by far the lowest ice time and the lowest scoring rate of all of these players.

View attachment 345212

The ice time is a coach's decision that shouldn't be held against him, and while I do think the scoring rate is concerning, I think that a large portion of this is due to the role that Toews was used in on the PP; Toews spent more time in the bumper role than most of these guys, and regression analysis suggests Toews still had a strong impact on his team's PP scoring rates. His goal scoring rate was middle of the pack and close enough to everybody besides Ovechkin and Stamkos, and that's what he was mainly asked to do on the PP. I think he was probably the weakest PP player of the bunch, but I do think the gap between he and the rest of these players is overstated by these numbers; I don't think he did that much worse of a job at getting his job done on the PP than the rest of these guys did, if that makes sense.

Comparing PP and 5V5 numbers is pretty subjective, but I feel pretty comfortable saying that if you are better offensively and defensively at even strength than another player, then you are better, even if they're better on the PP, unless there is some astronomical gap on the PP, and I think Toews was far better defensively than all of these guys besides Kopitar. I don't think that there is an astronomical gap on the PP between Toews and any of these guys save for maybe Backstrom, Stamkos, and Ovechkin. However, a suspiciously large portion of Backstrom's scoring came from secondary assists, and Ovechkin/Backstrom were also far enough behind Toews offensively at 5-on-5 that for me that I think Toews was clearly better than both players.

So, that disqualifies Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kane, MSL, Getzlaf, Zetterberg, and leaves only Kopitar, Malkin, Stamkos, and the Sedins. I think the Sedins had a huge benefit from playing with one another, and both of their 5-on-5 primary scoring rates were still less than that of Toews; they only have the edge due to secondary assists which are probably largely influenced by the amount which they passed the puck to one another. Toews being better defensively out-weighs the gap in PP scoring, in my mind. I think Kopitar was actually better defensively than Toews, and this is supported by the metrics, but I think Toews was better offensively, and by a slightly bigger margin, so I'd take Toews over Kopitar. This just leaves Malkin and Stamkos, which largely comes down to personal preference. Malkin and Stamkos were probably the better offensive players, but the fact that they had lower offensive GAR at even strength, and only slightly higher scoring rates than Toews at 5v5, makes me skeptical of just how big the offensive gap really was. I'd take Toews over either player, but I can understand if somebody preferred Stamkos' insane goal scoring ability, or Malkin's dynamic offensive skills.

TL;DR I have Crosby and Datsyuk clearly ahead of Toews over this sample, but I have Toews slightly ahead of Kopitar/Malkin/Stamkos, and I have him clearly ahead of every player besides those guys. So, somewhere between 3-6, and #3 for me. (I didn't look at defenseman or goalies, but I'm confident that Toews was better than any defenseman or goalie over this sample.) Toews' offense gets really underrated due to the way that the coach used him on the PP.

Toews was on the best team of this time period, and had a HOF linemate. There is no one who has a teammate advantage over him.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Toews was on the best team of this time period, and had a HOF linemate. There is no one who has a teammate advantage over him.

Toews spent well over 50% of his 5-on-5 ice time playing without Patrick Kane over this sample.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Toews spent well over 50% of his 5-on-5 ice time playing without Patrick Kane over this sample.

I'm aware, Chicago had another HOF winger you omitted.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

I'm aware, Chicago had another HOF winger you omitted.

The consensus that I've seen seems to be that Hossa won't make the HOF, but regardless, Hossa's value was largely defensive compared to his peers; he wasn't influencing Toews' scoring rates the way that an elite linemate like a Sedin or MSL was.

Furthermore, WOWY and regression analysis over the 3 years that they spent most of their time together suggests that while both were excellent players, Toews was the far better player; his number held up in the minutes that he was separated from Hossa, while Hossa's numbers dropped off quite a bit.

Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

 

[bambamcam4ever]

The consensus that I've seen seems to be that Hossa won't make the HOF, but regardless, Hossa's value was largely defensive compared to his peers; he wasn't influencing Toews' scoring rates the way that an elite linemate like a Sedin or MSL was.

Furthermore, WOWY and regression analysis over the 3 years that they spent most of their time together suggests that while both were excellent players, Toews was the far better player; his number held up in the minutes that he was separated from Hossa, while Hossa's numbers dropped off quite a bit.

Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

View attachment 345216

What consensus is that? A 3-time cup winner who was excellent defensively and scored 1100+ points in the scoring environment he was in is a lock.

And Toews numbers looked better away because he was always put in the best possible position to succeed. When did Toews ever regularly play with a linemate who wasn't at least a solid first-liner?

You also failed to mention that Chicago had the best defense group in the league during this time period.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

He's better defensively than all of those guys.

Datsyuk won his 3 selkes averaging 88pts. Kopitar won his 2 selkes averaging 83pts. Bergeron won his 4 selkes averaging 59pts. Bergeron was better defensively (arguable but let's say yes), but not to the extent of making up ~30pts. Datsyuk was an elite player, Kopitar was an elite 2 way player, Bergeron (at that time) was not. It's pretty simple.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Datsyuk won his 3 selkes averaging 88pts. Kopitar won his 2 selkes averaging 83pts. Bergeron won his 4 selkes averaging 59pts. Bergeron was better defensively (arguable but let's say yes), but not to the extent of making up ~30pts. Datsyuk was an elite player, Kopitar was an elite 2 way player, Bergeron (at that time) was not. It's pretty simple.

Bergeron is the best defensively, but it is the nature of the sport that a single player can make a greater positive impact offensively than defensively.

 

[Regal]

Over the sample of the 2009-2010 season through the 2014-2015 NHL season, Toews led the NHL in Evolving Hockey's Goals Above Replacement.

View attachment 345191

Right off the bat, I'd say that he was clearly behind Datsyuk and Crosby, who were both comfortably ahead of him on a per-minute or per-game basis. I don't think anybody would seriously disagree that Toews was better than either of those players, so we can probably start off at #3 and work our way backwards from there.

Now, people will inevitably bring up points, but Toews' was 17th in points per game over this sample, and the gap between Toews and the 12th ranked player was only 0.03. Here are those players:

View attachment 345192

I think we can all agree that Giroux, Perry, Thornton, and Tavares were well behind Toews, since the offensive gap was tiny and the defensive gap was certainly much bigger in Toews' favor, and I think that we can agree that no forward who was out-scored by Toews was a better player than him, except maybe Anze Kopitar whose PPG also rounded to 0.91. That leaves Malkin, Stamkos, Ovechkin, H. Sedin, MSL, Backstrom, Kane, D. Sedin, Getzlaf, Zetterberg, and Kopitar.

The thing about Toews is that his offense is actually extremely underrated by points per game. Among those players, only Malkin, Stamkos, and the Sedins actually scored 5-on-5 points or 5-on-5 primary points at a higher rate than Toews.

View attachment 345211

The difference between Toews and these 4 is also pretty small; his scoring rate and primary scoring rate were both within 93% of every one of these players, so it's not like they were leagues ahead of him. Furthermore, outside of Malkin, the 3 ahead of him all had the benefit of playing with an elite linemate for the vast majority of this sample, while Toews played with Kane for less than half of it. I think it makes sense that GAR which adjusts for context suggests that Toews' isolated impact on his team's even strength scoring rates was higher than that of all of these players, although I think that GAR is probably selling Malkin short at the very least and maybe Stamkos as well.

It is the power play where Toews falls well behind all of these players; both because he has by far the lowest ice time and the lowest scoring rate of all of these players.

View attachment 345212

The ice time is a coach's decision that shouldn't be held against him, and while I do think the scoring rate is concerning, I think that a large portion of this is due to the role that Toews was used in on the PP; Toews spent more time in the bumper role than most of these guys, and regression analysis suggests Toews still had a strong impact on his team's PP scoring rates. His goal scoring rate was middle of the pack and close enough to everybody besides Ovechkin and Stamkos, and that's what he was mainly asked to do on the PP. I think he was probably the weakest PP player of the bunch, but I do think the gap between he and the rest of these players is overstated by these numbers; I don't think he did that much worse of a job at getting his job done on the PP than the rest of these guys did, if that makes sense.

Comparing PP and 5V5 numbers is pretty subjective, but I feel pretty comfortable saying that if you are better offensively and defensively at even strength than another player, then you are better, even if they're better on the PP, unless there is some astronomical gap on the PP, and I think Toews was far better defensively than all of these guys besides Kopitar. I don't think that there is an astronomical gap on the PP between Toews and any of these guys save for maybe Backstrom, Stamkos, and Ovechkin. However, a suspiciously large portion of Backstrom's scoring came from secondary assists, and Ovechkin/Backstrom were also far enough behind Toews offensively at 5-on-5 that for me that I think Toews was clearly better than both players.

So, that disqualifies Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kane, MSL, Getzlaf, Zetterberg, and leaves only Kopitar, Malkin, Stamkos, and the Sedins. I think the Sedins had a huge benefit from playing with one another, and both of their 5-on-5 primary scoring rates were still less than that of Toews; they only have the edge due to secondary assists which are probably largely influenced by the amount which they passed the puck to one another. Toews being better defensively out-weighs the gap in PP scoring, in my mind. I think Kopitar was actually better defensively than Toews, and this is supported by the metrics, but I think Toews was better offensively, and by a slightly bigger margin, so I'd take Toews over Kopitar. This just leaves Malkin and Stamkos, which largely comes down to personal preference. Malkin and Stamkos were probably the better offensive players, but the fact that they had lower offensive GAR at even strength, and only slightly higher scoring rates than Toews at 5v5, makes me skeptical of just how big the offensive gap really was. I'd take Toews over either player, but I can understand if somebody preferred Stamkos' insane goal scoring ability, or Malkin's dynamic offensive skills.

TL;DR I have Crosby and Datsyuk clearly ahead of Toews over this sample, but I have Toews slightly ahead of Kopitar/Malkin/Stamkos, and I have him clearly ahead of every player besides those guys. So, somewhere between 3-6, and #3 for me. (I didn't look at defenseman or goalies, but I'm confident that Toews was better than any defenseman or goalie over this sample.) Toews' offense gets really underrated due to the way that the coach used him on the PP.

Solid analysis. Toews is one of the main guys that gets underrated here due to lower point totals, but it's almost entirely due to missed games and PP role. I do think he was pretty well insulated at his best, almost always getting 2 of Kane, Hossa, Sharp and Saad, plus a great defensive group behind him. I think Toews' game, which was based in large part on out working the opponent and winning puck battles to maintain possession and thus create more chances, works better when surrounded by other competent players, as opposed to more skilled players with greater gamebreaking ability, so he might not have had been able to maintain the same success on weaker teams as some others might. But if you want to win, you're going to need those players around your stars anyway, so it's probably a moot point. I've never understood the characterization that Toews was a product of an elite team when he was one of the top players on the team. I don't see where the Hawks outside of Toews were that much better than the Kings outside of Kopitar (who doesn't get the same criticism for the Kings now being a dumpster fire), the Bruins outside of Bergeron, the Wings outside of Datsyuk, etc.

 

[NJ DevLolz]

Toews wasn't remotely close to Crosby. Maybe in terms of positions he was (ie Crosby is the #1 best center, Toews is maybe #3, or #4, which is close). But there was never a time where picking Toews ahead of Crosby, even if 'for one season only', made any sense at all. Not even remotely close. I suppose if you want to use the caveat of thinking at some point Crosby was going to have to retire due to concussion and Toews is the safer pick is one thing - but i don't think that's the point here.

If someone completely lost faith in Ovi by 2012 after a bad year (arguably 2 in a row) - I suppose it's possible you could make a case that going into 2013, someone other than Ovechkin would be #2 selected. Maybe even Toews (but i doubt it's him). Beyond that - there's also never been a time where picking Toews above Ovechkin made sense

Malkin - same idea as Crosby/Ovi. It never made sense to pick Toews above him.

So - that means at most, he was only ever 4th best. But depending on which year we feel he ranked the highest, we'd have to look at who else his competition was.

What years was Toews even see as the best Chicago player? vs Kane and Keith isn't clear to me.

Add Hossa to that mix

 

[Trap Jesus]

Datsyuk won his 3 selkes averaging 88pts. Kopitar won his 2 selkes averaging 83pts. Bergeron won his 4 selkes averaging 59pts. Bergeron was better defensively (arguable but let's say yes), but not to the extent of making up ~30pts. Datsyuk was an elite player, Kopitar was an elite 2 way player, Bergeron (at that time) was not. It's pretty simple.

Bergeron is in the midst of an 11 year peak and counting, who else can you say that about?

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Bergeron is in the midst of an 11 year peak and counting, who else can you say that about?

Why are you moving the goal posts? The point was Bergeron wasn't an elite player in the time period being discussed (10-15). I never said he hasn't been an elite player the last couple of years.

I don't know what you consider "peak", but no player in history has had an 11 year peak. Either way, I'm not too impressed by a player who has 1 career top 10 hart finish and zero top 10 finishes in pts, goals, GPG, assists or APG. He was a good player for the first 10 years of his career, not elite. Has been elite the last few years because he finally has some kind of an offensive game.

 

[Trap Jesus]

Why are you moving the goal posts? The point was Bergeron wasn't an elite player in the time period being discussed (10-15). I never said he hasn't been an elite player the last couple of years.

I don't know what you consider "peak", but no player in history has had an 11 year peak. Either way, I'm not too impressed by a player who has 1 career top 10 hart finish and zero top 10 finishes in pts, goals, GPG, assists or APG. He was a good player for the first 10 years of his career, not elite. Has been elite the last few years because he finally has some kind of an offensive game.

Bergeron's been the same player for the last 11 years, he's been a top 5 Selke finisher every season. There's no goal-posts being moved, you've just routinely disregarded longevity and anything that isn't best in the league offense.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

He was up there in the 10-15 range probably, not going to look up all the best players from that era from dmen to goalies, but he was very highly regarded nonetheless.

Toews carried the Hawks down the middle since they didn't have really any other strong centers, his presence in terms of confidence, energy and leadership was a big factor for the team to be able to hit 100 pts year after year.

His offensive output was very good too, with 315 points in 343 rs games. For the longest time people loved to point out how he only had 1 70 point season, but 0.918 PPG over 5 seasons is very impressive and no matter how much you want to bring up games missed and all that, the reality is he was producing in most games he played.

60 points in 78 playoff games is also a good number, considering he drew all the toughest matchups.

2 Stanley Cups and Olympic Gold also speak for themselves. Won the Selke as well.

This is where the word intangibles was thrown out a lot and people actually meant it in a positive way and not in a mocking way.

 

[psycat]

Somewhere between 10-20, voted top 15.

Behind Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Stamkos, Datsyuk for sure. Would personally pick Kopitar over him then you have Kane, Hossa, Bäckström, Bergeron, Toews etc.

That's not counting defencemen+goalies, top 15 seems pretty fair.

 

[Addison Rae]

Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin and Stamkos were the 4 best players, pretty easily too. So at best Toews was 5th. Probably forgetting someone so voted top 10.

I’d have one of Keith, Doughty or Karlsson in the top 5. But yes, agreed.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Why are you moving the goal posts? The point was Bergeron wasn't an elite player in the time period being discussed (10-15). I never said he hasn't been an elite player the last couple of years.

I don't know what you consider "peak", but no player in history has had an 11 year peak. Either way, I'm not too impressed by a player who has 1 career top 10 hart finish and zero top 10 finishes in pts, goals, GPG, assists or APG. He was a good player for the first 10 years of his career, not elite. Has been elite the last few years because he finally has some kind of an offensive game.

You have an extreme standard of elite if you think Bergeron has only been elite in the last few seasons.

Points are far from everything. That's a lazy standard.

 

[wetcoast]

He's better defensively than all of those guys.

Bergeron also would have a couple of top 10 finishes if not for injuries so it's not like he couldn't play at that level or anything.

 

[BlueMed]

Somewhere between 10-20, voted top 15.

Behind Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Stamkos, Datsyuk for sure. Would personally pick Kopitar over him then you have Kane, Hossa, Bäckström, Bergeron, Toews etc.

That's not counting defencemen+goalies, top 15 seems pretty fair.

Toews>Stamkos easily. Didn't Stamkos get moved from center to wing at one in during the playoffs? That would never happen to Toews.