When it's all said and done: Sundin vs Karlsson

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Karlsson has 53 points in 67 GP in the playoffs. Sundin is 82 in 91 GP. How you interpret this as Karlsson with the advantage is interesting.

My Best-Carey

Please read carefully before quoting me. Thank you.

 

[Ben White]

Karlsson has 53 points in 67 GP in the playoffs. Sundin is 82 in 91 GP. How you interpret this as Karlsson with the advantage is interesting.

My Best-Carey

Eh… comparable ppg but as a Dman, yeah I’d call that an advantage.

 

[PostBradMalone]

feel like most here are too young to even have seen Sundin play but Ill take him over Karlsson all day.

Leafs fans are so precious. Of course in your mind it’s Sundin AINEC over the defenseman who has just as many top ten point finishes, with a third in progress to pull away.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Leafs fans are so precious. Of course in your mind it’s Sundin AINEC over the defenseman who has just as many top ten point finishes, with a third in progress to pull away.

Im not going to say Sundin is 100% ahead of Karlsson, Im just unsure how his game would translate to the time Sundin played. I dont really care who ranks higher than the other, but I dont think it's easily Karlsson

 

[Oneiro]

Sundin’s reputation is inflated and emblematic of some very barren 90s-00s Canadian franchises.

 

[frisco]

Please read carefully before quoting me. Thank you.

Before you get too pious, you said because Karlsson had the best playoff run, it wasn't close. I was showing that, if you're going to bring playoff performance into the discussion, that Sundin's playoff overall resume is better than Karlsson.

My Best-Carey

Eh… comparable ppg but as a Dman, yeah I’d call that an advantage.

Of course, Sundin also, as captain and best player, got his team to the playoffs way more often, which is an advantage in of itself.

My Best-Carey

 

[BraveCanadian]

Karlsson is easily the better player at their bests but Sundin had that consistency through his career so.. I dunno?

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Before you get too pious, you said because Karlsson had the best playoff run, it wasn't close. I was showing that, if you're going to bring playoff performance into the discussion, that Sundin's playoff overall resume is better than Karlsson.

My Best-Carey


Of course, Sundin also, as captain and best player, got his team to the playoffs way more often, which is an advantage in of itself.

My Best-Carey

That's not what I said. Again, read carefully before quoting me.

 

[norrisnick]

I take the center over the winger.

 

[wetcoast]

Sundin's 100+point season placed him 11th in NHL points that year and the sixth highest-scoring center.

Nope, not elite.

Sundin was 21 at the time and had a much better oeverall season than 23 year old joe Sakic had that year.

Had Sakic been traded to the Maple Leafs and Sundin enjoyed the riches of the Avs in later years this would be a much different conversation we are having here.

 

[Xspyrit]

You can throw the "if he was healthy" line in there and fill in the gaps with all kinds of imaginary accomplishments.

Reality: Forsberg finished in the top 5 for the Hart once (he did win it that year), never scored over 30 goals, was a good but not great defensive player, was the second best C on his team for most of his career, and was a decent physical presence for an offensive player at his size (and please don't tell me about his reverse hits). You could make an argument that his attempt at physical play hindered his career as his propensity to get injured is almost legendary.

There's no way he's a top 10 all-time NHL player and to mention him with Jaromir Jagr is just laughable.

My Best-Carey

Forsberg only played 708 Games in the NHL and yet he makes these lists :

NHL 100 Greatest Players | NHL.com

The official National Hockey League website including news, rosters, stats, schedules, teams, and video.

www.nhl.com

List of members of the Hockey Hall of Fame - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But he added 151 playoffs games when he was also over PPG, during the dead puck era

From 1994-95 to 2003-04, 2nd most playoffs points behind Sakic, 2nd highest PPG behind Jagr, most Even Strenght Points too by a good margin

Not even need to talk about the SHL or International play where he dominated as well. You can try as hard as you want to diminish all his accomplishments all you want but his career is still remarkable despite injuries. The point (hopefully you'll understand this time) is that we could only imagine what he could have done if he was NOT injury prone...


Regarding the Jagr comment, are you sure you read AND understood? I was talking about the 7 years DPE... Ever heard about that?

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

 

[norrisnick]

Now sort that table three columns to the left.

 

[Givememoneyback]

For all time Swedes, in order, I'd rank them Lidstrom, Karlsson, Forsberg, then either of Salming or Sundin. All great players.

 

[SheldonJPlankton]

Sundin was 21 at the time and had a much better oeverall season than 23 year old joe Sakic had that year.

Had Sakic been traded to the Maple Leafs and Sundin enjoyed the riches of the Avs in later years this would be a much different conversation we are having here.

9 points more playing 2 extra games equates to 'much better overall season' to you?

 

[wetcoast]

9 points more playing 2 extra games equates to 'much better overall season' to you?

This isn't fantasy hockey he also was much better in 2 way play that year. ESGF/ESGA

This guy upthread really sums things up for me here

I, also, believe that a player with 1350 points in 1350 games played was not any good.

He honestly just rode a couple, or like 18 or whatever, really lucky seasons.

He barely scored 500 goals. That's the baseline for average.

Look up his teammates, he was constantly surrounded by far superior players like Hoglund, Berezin, Antropov, Reichel, Modin.
I mean sure he led the team in scoring every single season in Toronto, minus one, but that's just lucky.

Hell, he even had an entire season with Mogilny and didn't even put up 200 points, loser.

He never won a championship. There has never been a good athlete who hasn't won a championship for his team before.

No, I don't think Marino was good, nor Alfredsson, or Karlsson, or Iginla. Anyone who hasn't won a championship yet, is overrated. Ovechkin is lucky he got his, because that would have been a tough conversation.

The thing is that Sundin performed at an elite level in several best on best tournaments over time, the Leafs weren't exactly the perfect storm opportunity for him that some try to make out here.

 

[Ben White]

Sundin was 21 at the time and had a much better oeverall season than 23 year old joe Sakic had that year.

Had Sakic been traded to the Maple Leafs and Sundin enjoyed the riches of the Avs in later years this would be a much different conversation we are having here.

I will get for saying this but I don’t think Sakic is much closer to Forsberg in terms of talent level than he is to Sundin (obviously I rank them Forsberg, Sakic, Sundin) and if it was Sakic leaving for Toronto instead I don’t think that Colorado necessarily would’ve done that much worse.

 

[authentic]

People are actually arguing Sundin > Forsberg? I would take Karlsson at his best over Sundin to be honest.

 

[Ben White]

People are actually arguing Sundin > Forsberg? I would take Karlsson at his best over Sundin to be honest.

I rank the swedes (in terms of peak and ability - how good they were/are at playing hockey):

Forsberg
Lidstrom
Karlsson
Sundin
Salming
Nilsson
Hedman
Zetterberg
Markus Naslund
Loob

Dahlin will climb up that list soon enough. Maybe Pettersson too.

 

[frisco]

Top 10 pts
Sundin: 4,7
Karlsson: 4,10

Top 10 hart
Sundin: 8
Karlsson: 5,8,9,9

AST
Sundin: 2,2
Karlsson: 1,1,1,1

Karlsson also has the best playoff run between them and is still adding to his resume. This isn't close.

I get it. But you're isolating 2-4 years of their careers when we should be looking at the entirety of things ("When all is said and done: Sundin vs. Karlsson")

That's not what I said. Again, read carefully before quoting me.

I acknowledge your opinion.

I'm stating (this is not in response to your post) Sundin has the better playoff record in both making them more frequently and performing in them overall.

My Best-Carey

 

[Xspyrit]

Now sort that table three columns to the left.

Impossible to be certain but I am going to assume you were referencing to the last link I provided. Looking at it by raw points is exactly what makes Forsberg one the very best skaters of that era (with Jagr, Sakic and Lidstrom). Look at the guys just in front or behind him and how many more games they played... For example, he outscored Mark Recchi by 3 pts despite playing 159 games less lol

Finishing 8th in scoring over a 7 seasons period despite playing hundred games less than others is not the detriment you were hoping for...

People are actually arguing Sundin > Forsberg?

Yes...

 

[norrisnick]

Impossible to be certain but I am going to assume you were referencing to the last link I provided. Looking at it by raw points is exactly what makes Forsberg one the very best skaters of that era (with Jagr, Sakic and Lidstrom). Look at the guys just in front or behind him and how many more games they played... For example, he outscored Mark Recchi by 3 pts despite playing 159 games less lol

Finishing 8th in scoring over a 7 seasons period despite playing hundred games less than others is not there detriment you were hoping for...



Yes...

And playing 159 fewer games is not the positive you were hoping for...

 

[Stephen]

Karlsson is easily the better player at their bests but Sundin had that consistency through his career so.. I dunno?

Sundin also had the extreme longevity.

Think of this way. We're having a career wrap up conversation with Erik Karlsson right now. He's 32 and having a career "bounce back" after 3-4 down years? At 32, in 2003, Sundin was in the middle of his peak leading the Leafs to a run of 3x 100 point seasons as a second tier contender. He didn't retire until 6 years later at 38 (one year lost to the lockout) and was still a PPG center until the last season in Vancouver. The Olympic Gold was still ahead of him.

Not sure what the chances of Karlsson putting in another 6 seasons of near prime hockey will be at 38 years of age.

 

[Xspyrit]

And playing 159 fewer games is not the positive you were hoping for...

ok what do you think a Sundin vs Forsberg poll would result into?

 

[norrisnick]

ok what do you think a Sundin vs Forsberg poll would result into?

Depends on how the question is framed.

Who had the higher peak?
Who had the better prime?
Who would you take at 18 only knowing potential but not what happened?
Who would you take at 18 knowing exactly that the game availability is as it was?

But with this being HF, no one will read the question and click on Forsberg's name because reasons.

Knowing how their careers turned out? As a GM I'm taking 1346 games over 708 10 times out of 10.

 

[Xspyrit]

Depends on how the question is framed.

Who had the higher peak?
Who had the better prime?
Who would you take at 18 only knowing potential but not what happened?
Who would you take at 18 knowing exactly that the game availability is as it was?

But with this being HF, no one will read the question and click on Forsberg's name because reasons.

Knowing how their careers turned out? As a GM I'm taking 1346 games over 708 10 times out of 10.

ok you're right that nobody will read the question lol

Well many would but still too many would skip

I understand your POV but another choice for you :

Mike Bossy or Patrick Marleau?