When is one side going to make a legitimate proposal?

Discussion in 'The Business of Hockey' started by Egil, Jan 8, 2005.

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  1. Egil

    Egil Registered User

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    Both of the the first set of proposals, were, IMHO, designed to be "negotiated off". They were not designed to be taken, but to have counter offers returned on them.

    Now, when are the players going to offer TRUE modifications to the current system (which must involve ways for RFA's to be signed for significantly less than the previous year, if their perfomance dictates it)? The NHLPA needs to put in some system that allows a team to tender a 50% QO to a player. The new system needs to allow an onwer to take a player to arbitration unlimited times, not just once. I eagerly await the players making this offer, if they are truly interested in keeping the current system. Throwing in an CBA exit clause or 10% salary rollback if player costs return above say 60% would also help. But WHERE IS THIS SORT OF PROPOSAL FROM THE PLAYERS?

    Now, when are the owners going to offer a true offer on a cap system. Guaranteed the owners are willing to completely illiminate the rollback, and phase in a cap over 3-4 years to their 55-56% salary level (judging from Bettmans last press conference, the owners would take the 56.6% level that the players would roll back too). THe owners would also need to reduce the UFA age further (to say 27-28), again phased in over 3-4 years at 1 year per annum. They should put arbitration back in, have some sort of mechanism to allow teams a minor cap overage for one season based on arbtration awards and the like. But, basically, where is the owners offer that bribes the players by removing their 24% rollback? This is a EXCELLENT tool to get the players thinking your way (they are willing to let us keep making top dollar for now)? But, WHERE IS THIS SORT OF PROPOSAL FROM THE OWNERS?
     
  2. CarlRacki

    CarlRacki Registered User

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    As I see it, the PA's absolute unwillingness to negotiate anything close to cost certainty has played right into the hands of hardline owners who want to declare an impasse and open the league next season with an imposed hard cap.
    If the PA offered some compromise on the issue central to the owners' position, it would weaken the NHL's pending case before the NLRB.
     
  3. There haven't been any real offers yet.
    The PA did make some semblance of an offer, in the respect that it was a pretty major giveback.
    But it was in the wrong area.

    I think the PA must do one of two things:
    1. It must make an offer with a stiff luxury tax.
    Or
    2. Fold.

    It remains to be seen if the owners will respond in a meaningful way to a luxury tax.
    If they don't, as far as I'm concerned, they can scrap the NHL forever, and ever. Amen.
    Because I won't give a bloody dime to an NHL owner if they won't agree to a luxury tax.
     
  4. chiavsfan

    chiavsfan Registered User

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    A luxury tax does not work...in any sport. Look at Major League baseball...3 teams are paying a luxury tax, and by the end of the year next year, I bet they are by far, better than any of the other teams in the game. A luxury tax is an incredible stupid idea, no matter how strict or tough people think it is
     
  5. PanthersRule96

    PanthersRule96 Registered User

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    WTF IS WRONG WITH BOTH OF THESE SIDES??? HOW HARD IS IT TO AT LEAST NEGOTIATE???? BOTH SIDES ARE BLAMING EACH OTHER FOR NOT WANTING TO NEDGOTIATE. FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE, COME ON AND ONE SIDE STEP UP TO START CONTINUING NEGOTIATIONS.

    It's like both don't even care if the season is cancelled but the fact that they might actually get something done if they negotiate seems to be scaring the PA. Trevor Linden, Alfredsson, Boughner, etc.. and his other overapayed cronies and losers at the head of the PA are ruining the NHL's future. :madfire:
     
  6. I in the Eye

    I in the Eye Drop a ball it falls

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    I think that the owner's are going to submit another proposal... IMO, it makes sense for them to do so...

    Before I go into 'battle', I skim over 'The Art of War' by Sun Tzu...

    For the hell of it, I skimmed over it last night... I have no battles coming up, but I was interested to see how the "tried and tested" principles of how to win a war apply to the CBA dispute...

    I think that Bettman may have skimmed it at some point, because he's applying the principles quite well :innocent: , whereas Goodenow is, IMO, not applying the principles nearly as well... May make for an interesting thread soon - Using 'The Art of War' to analyze and predict the outcome of the labour dispute? Time permitting - and only if requested ;)

    Anyways, here are a couple of passages that lead me to think that the owner's will submit another proposal:

    - "Victory is the main object in war. If this is long delayed, weapons are blunted and morale depressed. When troops attack cities, their strength will be exhausted" (pg. 73)

    In other words, it is in the NHL's best interest to take the steps to try and get what they want asap... If they can get victory without cancelling a season, it's definitely in their best interest to do so... As things are now, there is little chance that the NHL will get victory asap with what is currently on the table... Submitting another proposal will give them one final chance to get victory with minimal damage - all the NHLPA can do is turn the proposal down, so it's worth it, IMO... If they need to go the impasse route, then IMO, this also shows stronger willingness and "good faith" to get a deal done...

    - "All warfare is based on deception. Therefore, when capable, feign incapacity; when active, inactivity. When near, make it appear that you are far away; when far away, that you are near. Offer the enemy a bait to lure him; feign disorder and strike him" (pg. 66)

    In other words, I don't think that the NHLPA completely expects to see another NHL offer (the NHL has even said that it is up to the NHLPA to respond next). Give the NHLPA another offer attractive enough that lures them out of hiding... Attack them when they are not expecting it...

    - "He whose ranks are united in purpose will be victorious" (pg. 83)

    In other words, the NHLPA is too unified right now for a quick victory (and I assume that the NHL would want a quick victory - why wouldn't they, unless they truly want a hard cap that, IMO, would be detrimental to hockey)... If the NHL wants to win asap, they are going to need another proposal that much further divides the player "haves" from the "have nots"... Submit a proposal that makes the NHLPA vulnerable... one that the majority of players (the have not's) really like... perhaps one that even makes them much more money than what they are currently making, while taking the money from the player minority (the highest paid)...

    There are many other passages that support why it makes sense for the NHL to submit another proposal... but unfortunately, I just ran out of time... if interested, perhaps later... I don't want to use up too much bandwidth though :)
     
  7. Egil

    Egil Registered User

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    Honestly, if the owners submit a 56% of league revenue cap (to be phased in over 3-4 years), with NO rollback, it will be VERY difficult for the players union to turn that down, as their will be MANY guys screaming at them to take it (like Yashin for one).
     
  8. Puck

    Puck Ninja

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    It looks like they sorely need third party arbitration to help sort themselves out. The NHL and PA look like a modern dysfunctional family that needs help but don't think they need it.

    The NHL keeps wanting the NHLPA to make another right offer; they want to hear those words that would be music to their ears, including acceptance of the 'c' word. They look like the teacher sending the student back to redo their math homework until they get the algorithm right.

    The PA has given them a proposal that didn't include the right equation. But after being slapped back by Principal Bettman last December, I don't think the students are in a hurry to come back for more lessons. Goodenow and the rest of the kids might have figured it might too early to play ball with an academic staff that believes it has all the right answers. There is only ONE answer for one party and the other party won't entertain that answer. So we wait.

    But I agree Egil, the NHL has never tabled any specific answers of their own, they seem to want to wait for the players to fill in the blanks and connect the dots. So we wait.

    I guess the NHL figures the loss of funds (wages) will eventually make the students smarter and they'll finally get it. Maybe the students figure that conversely, that same lesson can be applied to the other side. So we wait.

    Both sides seem to be succesfully avoiding each other for the most part.

    I suppose the NHL figures their cap proposal will just be shot down, they will wait until the PA gives the word that they are willing to work out a cap. Then there would be Phase 2 of drawing up that Cap and that could be a greater battle than getting the PA to accept the concept in the first place. And they'd have to agree on what constitutes hockey revenue. And they still haven't discussed the salary arbitration question. At that point you might really have an impasse that the NLRB can sink its teeth into. Maybe the PA figures the best 'legal' tactic at this point is the so-called 'stubborn one' they are on right now. So we're locked in this Mother of All Battles. Neither side wants third party arbitration or mediation. The NHL thinks it has the hammer and the PA might have decided to wait them out to see what they do with that hammer, hoping the NHL might hurt themselves with it, with an errant swing.

    So we wait.
     
  9. Brent Burns Beard

    Brent Burns Beard DontTouchMyDonskoi!

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    techinically, the owners want to hear the "L" word, not the "C" word.

    dr
     
  10. misterjaggers

    misterjaggers Registered User

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    The league won't capitulate on the salary cap issue. Bettman got burned on the issue in 1994 because of owner dissension. The owners folded on the issue like a cheap chair. It won't happen this time around because the owners have voted him the fiat he needs to see it through to the bitter end. If the NHLPA's obstinance continues, the NHL will present a final counter-proposal before training camp with some grandfathering of contracts and, if the union declines, we'll see replacement players.
     
  11. Puck

    Puck Ninja

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    technically, maybe my C word is Cost Certainty....the missing Linkage....I think the owners will accept any word from the players not starting with F at this point.
     
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