When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[Miller Time]

71	Dylan Larkin
59	Tyler Bertuzzi
39	Anthony Mantha
14	Robby Fabbri 1
17	Filip Hronek
72	Andreas Athanasiou 2
51	Valtteri Filppula
74	Madison Bowey
43	Darren Helm
11	Filip Zadina
25	Mike Green 2
41	Luke Glendening
81	Frans Nielsen
22	Patrik Nemeth
21	Dennis Cholowski
67	Taro Hirose
83	Trevor Daley
73	Adam Erne
70	Christoffer Ehn
61	Jacob De La Rose 3
29	Brendan Perlini 4
65	Danny Dekeyser
48	Givani Smith
45	Jonathan Bernier
3	Alex Biega
8	Justin Abdelkader
2	Joe Hicketts
89	Sam Gagner 5
32	Brian Lashoff
28	Gustav Lindstrom
26	Cody Goloubef 6
34	Eric Comrie
31	Calvin Pickard
37	Evgeny Svechnikov
15	Dmytro Timashov 7
20	Dylan McIlrath
52	Jonathan Ericsson
35	Jimmy Howard

Goalies
Player Name	GP	Min	GA	GAA	W	L	T	Svs	Pct	EN	SO
Jonathan Bernier
Jimmy Howard
Eric Comrie
Calvin Pickard

This was the Wings roster for the 2019-2020. I can't fathom how one would argue this to be rock solid starting position. He had some additional picks from the Nyquist and Tatar trades, Veleno, Zadina, Ras, and Berggren. That is on the other side of the f**king solar system in comparison to his start at Tampa. Where he had Stamkos, Hedman, and several veterans with value to move.
You also brought forth mention of him trading Drouin, as an argument to moving Zadina? However, you're seemingly ignoring that Drouin was a prospect HE drafted, that HE was highly informed of. That also contrasts greatly to a prospect in Zadina, who he had not drafted, who he was not familar with, and who the team was clearly trying to develop.

He started in spring 2019

In Tampa he absolutely started off with better roster pieces, but also a worse prospect pool.


In his Tampa work, he:
- went to conference finals in year 1 (Tampa had missed POs the 3 years before he got there.)
- had only 1 sub .500 season (vs 3 of 4 seasons this far in Detroit)
- made POs 5 of 8 years, finals 1x, conference finals 3x)
- left GM chair with TB winning next 2cups + finals in year 3


Not sure how anyone could argue that he was anything short of stellar in TB.

Body of work this far in Detroit doesn't come close.

You're right, a bad take is a bad take.

And any take that says Perron is anything more than a defensive liability at this point is a bad take. Saying he's a positive defensive force is a horrendous take.

?

Okie dokie. Not sure when or where I stayed otherwise.

By the way, who signed Perron?

 

[Ezekial]

He started in spring 2019


?

Okie dokie. Not sure when or where I stayed otherwise.

By the way, who signed Perron?

That's my mistake, I thought you were the one that said Seider got to play with players like Perron, I now see it was a different poster who's username started with M.

I still disagree with your prospect pool premise, but I'll bow out due to my mistake and the 10 other posters down your throat(albeit deservedly so imo).

 

[Miller Time]

That's my mistake, I thought you were the one that said Seider got to play with players like Perron, I now see it was a different poster who's username started with M.

I still disagree with your prospect pool premise, but I'll bow out due to my mistake and the 10 other posters down your throat(albeit deservedly so imo).

I don't make the rankings... So you and the others can take it up with the multiple publications that considered Detroit a top 10 prospect pool in 2018-19 lol

 

[norrisnick]

Probably had a bit to do with Zadina being considered a can't miss franchise winger. Oops...

 

[Ezekial]

I don't make the rankings... So you and the others can take it up with the multiple publications that considered Detroit a top 10 prospect pool in 2018-19 lol

I'll respond with a post of mine about the topic that you ignored.

Who the f*** cares if an inherited prospect pool was rated by some shit articles when the top 3 players (two of which being rated as the elite of the elite in one of them) top out as 3rd/4th liners?

Rasmussen, Veleno, and Zadina aren't players that moved the needle, who cares what Corey Pronman thought of them 5 years ago.

 

[dekelikekocur]

I don't make the rankings... So you and the others can take it up with the multiple publications that considered Detroit a top 10 prospect pool in 2018-19 lol

And rankings are wrong a lot more than they are right. You literally have 5 years of evidence reflecting on why those rankings were wrong and you still can't figure it out. It sounds like your issue isn't with Yzerman but with your inability to adapt to new information.

 

[Miller Time]

I'll respond with a post of mine about the topic that you ignored.

Right....

Back to the issue of not understanding that hindsight isn't a relevant to the discussion.

That you can't separate what took place over time from what was true at the time, is why you're having so much trouble

And rankings are wrong a lot more than they are right. You literally have 5 years of evidence reflecting on why those rankings were wrong and you still can't figure it out. It sounds like your issue isn't with Yzerman but with your inability to adapt to new information.

Hindsight

Look it up.

 

[Ezekial]

Right....

Back to the issue of not understanding that hindsight isn't a relevant to the discussion.

That you can't separate what took place over time from what was true at the time, is why you're having so much trouble


Hindsight

Look it up.

In hindsight

The players weren't as good as those articles said, and the prospect pool was actually weaker than you're saying. Therefore it was not a strength.

Hindsight


Look it up.

 

[dekelikekocur]

Right....

Back to the issue of not understanding that hindsight isn't a relevant to the discussion.

That you can't separate what took place over time from what was true at the time, is why you're having so much trouble


Hindsight

Look it up.

Yes, hindsight is what we're telling you that you keep bleeting about their prospect pool rankings.

5 years and you can see where every single one of those players are at. Holland had crap ability for judging talent. As reflected by how the plethora of his draft picks turned out both under his leadership and under Yzermen's and other GMs when those players were traded.

Yet here you are still beating a drum about how highly ranked their prospect pool is and can't figure out why everyone is giving you grief because we're all aware of what those prospects were. There was a reason Zadina dropped the way he did in the draft, there's a reason Velano was passed by pretty much every other team, Holland still went with those choices believing his judgement was better. I think Hollland was a victim of believing Haken's success was Hollands.

 

[Miller Time]

In hindsight

The players weren't as good as those articles said, and the prospect pool was actually weaker than you're saying. Therefore it was not a strength.

Nope.

The prospect pool was as strong as it was in 2019. How those prospects progressed is a completely separate question and largely irrelevant to an assessment of the assets inherited.

While there's no 1 metric that objectively quantifies the strength of the pool, relative to the rest of the league, it was in the top tier


Consider the upcoming draft. There is likely to be a player selected in the top 10 that does not become an NHL regular.

Let's say it's the 7th pick.

A GM with the 7th OA pick has that value in hand in 2024.

In 2025, he's got a D1 former 7OA. Short of the prospect suffering catastrophic injury, he will maintain value.

In 2026, it's a D2
2027, D3

& On.

The value each year may well decrease, but for highly rated/high pick prospects, the residual value stays above immediate performance level/progression for some time.

Not sure how any of this is hard to understand, assuming youve watched hockey for a few years

 

[Ezekial]

Hindsight - where you use reality of the day to explain the false assumptions of the past.

False assumption - top 10 prospect pool

Actuality - those players stunk

This is bizarre. You couldn't be more wrong.

 

[Miller Time]

Yes, hindsight is what we're telling you that you keep bleeting about their prospect pool rankings.

5 years and you can see where every single one of those players are at.

Yes.
And Yzerman made quicker & better assessments on the prospects he inherited, he could have flipped them for more than he got waiting until it was clear they weren't going to pan out... That's a crucial part of the job of a GM, is it not?

Holland had crap ability for judging talent.

Datsyuk & Zetterberg say hello lol

Yet here you are still beating a drum about how highly ranked their prospect pool is and can't figure out why everyone is giving you grief because we're all aware of what those prospects were.

I can figure it out... Homer glasses are thick in segments of every fan base.

Your exaggeration of my simple, and factual, comment (red Wings had a top tier prospect group according to multiple publications) is a strawman... Typical retort when one is trying to justify a baseless or heavily biased take, as you are.

There was a reason Zadina dropped the way he did in the draft,

Lol... He "dropped" 1, maybe 2 spots... And if you were following that draft, after the top 2 it was wide open. This comment highlights revisionist history.

there's a reason Velano was passed by pretty much every other team, Holland still went with those choices believing his judgement was better. I think Hollland was a victim of believing Haken's success was Hollands.

& yet, Veleno's NHL contracts have only been signed by 1 GM... Guess who lol

 

[schuelma24]

& yet, Veleno's NHL contracts have only been signed by 1 GM... Guess who lol

this has to be an elaborate troll. I refuse to believe anyone is saying this in good faith.

If so, well done

 

[Our Lady Peace]

Painting the picture with one brush stroke saying they've missed the playoffs for 8 straight years and Yzerman still hasn't "righted the ship" per se, isn't really a surefire indicator of success or not without context.

For context to start, Yzerman joined 2 years after the team's first playoff miss in 26 years. They rode out every last aging piece they had. They had Larkin, but critically missed drafting a legitimate impact NHLer in the stacked 2015 draft. Missed again in 2016 round 1. Ended up with Hronek in round 2.

This team had an identity from the start of Yzerman - fully committed to tearing it down and rebuilding, and haven't drafted in the top 3 one single time. Yes, the lottery luck has been shit. So what do you do? Scout and spend maybe some more time in Europe where you're finding young kids playing pro hockey on bigger ice. Looking damn good so far employing that strategy.

So what I don't understand, is how so many franchises that "rebuild" go up and down, up and down, over and over again. New Jersey, Philadelphia, Montreal, Arizona, Columbus, Ottawa, Buffalo (still haven't made it). All of these franchises have drafted in the top 3 in the last 7 years, and some multiple times in the last 10 years (some twice at 1st overall!!!). All of which have been stuck in purgatory missing the playoffs and making the playoffs over the last half-decade at least, and all have missed the playoffs this season. Is the fire GM after GM the right strategy? Is what these teams doing working for them?

Detroit has at least committed to a plan of bottoming out, and then slow-burning their prospects because, well, what's rushing them going to anyway? Yes, watching a worse off team spend an extra year sucking is hard. 8 years is a long time. Even hardly top 3 picks spend their D+1 in the NHL. So you can imagine how much longer it feels when the top picks Detroit have had under Yzerman are spending a little bit more time developing than other teams prospects typically might be.

The signing criticisms are more than fair. However that's still somewhat up in the air as the team is finally pushing the playoff envelope and they don't have any legitimately crippling contracts. See; Justin Abdelkader. Re-signed by Holland for 7 years 4.25m, bought out and Detroit is still paying for it

His trades have been solid enough, bringing in good young players and signing them for reasonable deals, and offloading veterans for picks

• offloaded Bertuzzi and Hronek each for 1st round picks, both of which would have had to be overpaid and they're both middle of the lineup players.

• brought in Walman, Debrincat.

• Mantha trade brought in a total haul and he was a flop until this season (playing hard for a contract like he did in 19-20, shocker). Offloaded Vrana eventually when he opted not to commit himself to his game.

Not amazing by any means, but the focus has been to draft + develop and not sign crippling veteran contracts. Yes some veteran contracts aren't great, us Wings fans already know this and are very vocal about it. We're hoping he has some tricks in his sleeve this summer but we'll have to see + the draft lottery awaits.

The drafting and developing has given Detroit a top 3 prospect pool with all of their 1st round picks during Yzerman's time taking excellent steps forward in their D+1, something of a consistency that leads me to believe he's on the right track here by taking the extra little bit of time with the rebuild and building a deep team by committee.

 

[Shultzyfeelinirie25]

the roster Yzerman had to take over

 

[nbwingsfan]

View attachment 860045the roster Yzerman had to take over

It’s been posted like 8 times already but because we had Zadina and Veleno in our prospect pool it’s in Been completely ignored by that one guy lol

 

[Miller Time]

View attachment 860045the roster Yzerman had to take over

Yup. Non playoff roster.

5 offseasons later....

Still a non playoff roster.

 

[schuelma24]

Yup. Non playoff roster.

5 offseasons later....

Still a non playoff roster.

I am in awe of this logic.

So simple. So beautiful. Inexorable and unyielding.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

71	Dylan Larkin
59	Tyler Bertuzzi
39	Anthony Mantha
14	Robby Fabbri 1
17	Filip Hronek
72	Andreas Athanasiou 2
51	Valtteri Filppula
74	Madison Bowey
43	Darren Helm
11	Filip Zadina
25	Mike Green 2
41	Luke Glendening
81	Frans Nielsen
22	Patrik Nemeth
21	Dennis Cholowski
67	Taro Hirose
83	Trevor Daley
73	Adam Erne
70	Christoffer Ehn
61	Jacob De La Rose 3
29	Brendan Perlini 4
65	Danny Dekeyser
48	Givani Smith
45	Jonathan Bernier
3	Alex Biega
8	Justin Abdelkader
2	Joe Hicketts
89	Sam Gagner 5
32	Brian Lashoff
28	Gustav Lindstrom
26	Cody Goloubef 6
34	Eric Comrie
31	Calvin Pickard
37	Evgeny Svechnikov
15	Dmytro Timashov 7
20	Dylan McIlrath
52	Jonathan Ericsson
35	Jimmy Howard

Goalies
Player Name	GP	Min	GA	GAA	W	L	T	Svs	Pct	EN	SO
Jonathan Bernier
Jimmy Howard
Eric Comrie
Calvin Pickard

This was the Wings roster for the 2019-2020. I can't fathom how one would argue this to be rock solid starting position. He had some additional picks from the Nyquist and Tatar trades, Veleno, Zadina, Ras, and Berggren. That is on the other side of the f**king solar system in comparison to his start at Tampa. Where he had Stamkos, Hedman, and several veterans with value to move.
You also brought forth mention of him trading Drouin, as an argument to moving Zadina? However, you're seemingly ignoring that Drouin was a prospect HE drafted, that HE was highly informed of. That also contrasts greatly to a prospect in Zadina, who he had not drafted, who he was not familar with, and who the team was clearly trying to develop.

 

[cvaicunas]

Yup. Non playoff roster.

5 offseasons later....

Still a non playoff roster.

At this point I have to tip my hat to you. You've withstood the entire thread arguing your points, and yet you seem undeterred, nor bothered. Bravo fellow hockey fan, bravo.

 

[dekelikekocur]

Yes.
And Yzerman made quicker & better assessments on the prospects he inherited, he could have flipped them for more than he got waiting until it was clear they weren't going to pan out... That's a crucial part of the job of a GM, is it not?


Datsyuk & Zetterberg say hello lol


I can figure it out... Homer glasses are thick in segments of every fan base.

Your exaggeration of my simple, and factual, comment (red Wings had a top tier prospect group according to multiple publications) is a strawman... Typical retort when one is trying to justify a baseless or heavily biased take, as you are.


Lol... He "dropped" 1, maybe 2 spots... And if you were following that draft, after the top 2 it was wide open. This comment highlights revisionist history.

& yet, Veleno's NHL contracts have only been signed by 1 GM... Guess who lol

Pretty much out of the gate Zadina was not great, remember, it takes two to work out deals. Zadina was rushed into the NHL by Holland with 45 games in GR, a season with the Q as a 16/17 yr old.

Everyone knew he wasn't worth the draft pick by the end of his first year in Detroit, Yzerman assessed, figured it was worth the risk to try to develop the kid, he had potential, he just didn't have meaningful NHL skills with that potential. Remember, it takes two to trade.

Dats and Z were Hakan picks, As I said, Holland was a victim of Hakan's success, with Holland thinking it was his own.

Your exaggerations and revisionist history is well on display, no one needs to exagerate anything for you, we're trying to correct your view and instead of accepting that you're wrong, you double down at every chance.

Also, Zadina was ranked #2 by Central Scouting, ISS had him 3rd, McKeen at 2nd.

Veleno is a serviceable bottom 6 guy, his contracts aren't outlandish, he's paid for his role.

For centers with 10 to 15 mins toi/gp, he's 12 in scoring with min of 40 gp. (what you would view realistically with bottom 6 center toi/gp) with a salary of 825k.

 

[SympathyForTheDevils]

His trades have been solid enough, bringing in good young players and signing them for reasonable deals, and offloading veterans for picks

• offloaded Bertuzzi and Hronek each for 1st round picks, both of which would have had to be overpaid and they're both middle of the lineup players.

• brought in Walman, Debrincat.

• Mantha trade brought in a total haul and he was a flop until this season (playing hard for a contract like he did in 19-20, shocker). Offloaded Vrana eventually when he opted not to commit himself to his game.

Not amazing by any means, but the focus has been to draft + develop and not sign crippling veteran contracts. Yes some veteran contracts aren't great, us Wings fans already know this and are very vocal about it. We're hoping he has some tricks in his sleeve this summer but we'll have to see + the draft lottery awaits.

I agree with the gist of your post, but those moves remind me of why I'm not that enamored with Yzerman's work in Detroit so far (though I do think he's a good GM overall). A lot of "1 step forward, 1 step back" moves.

- Mantha might be a flop, but he's a whole lot more valuable than Vrana, a guy nobody picked up when Yzerman put him on waivers, on top of swallowing the Panik cap dump. Of course, the picks offset that difference, so it's a decent trade overall. But then Yzerman packages that 1st rounder with a few others to move up in the draft to get Cossa at 15. Dallas uses the original pick to draft Wyatt Johnston instead. I dunno, even if you're a big Cossa believer, that doesn't seem like SY's best sequence of moves.

- Yzerman gives up a bunch of assets to get Debrincat's rights, which is fine. But he then proceeds to significantly overpay him. 8M for an undersized 65-70 pts scorer who's useless when not producing? At least he didn't give him term.

- Trading away a young top-4 Dman for a mid-range 1st rounder when your defence is as dire as Detroit's seems questionable to me. Maybe ASP will be a top-4 Dman in 5 years, but it's far from guaranteed.

And that's ignoring more minor trades that didn't quite work out, like giving up assets for the corpses of Jeff Petry and Nick Leddy, or swallowing Yamamoto's contract for Klim Kostin, who does nothing in Detroit. Of course it's easy to forgive this stuff when the team is bad, there's no expectations and the team has plenty of picks and cap space to leverage into assets. But still it gives the impression that Yzerman's pro scouting in Detroit is weaker than his amateur scouting, and that will matter more and more as the team moves out of the rebuild phase.

 

[TKB]

You criticizing the Yzerplan is one of the steps of the Yzerplan. You cannot escape the Yzerplan. Steve has already foreseen every variation of everything you could possibly say in this thread and it’s already been preemptively handled.

And the plan has been in the works for decades:

 

[Ezekial]

Cossa being used as a negative still by people

 

[Miller Time]

Pretty much out of the gate Zadina was not great, remember, it takes two to work out deals. Zadina was rushed into the NHL by Holland with 45 games in GR, a season with the Q as a 16/17 yr old.

Zadina, in his D1 year, outperformed Kasper in his D2 year in GR.

I can assure you that in his D2 year, Zadina still had very high perceived value, including amongst wings fans.

By your logic, Yzerman would be foolish not to trade Kasper, who is "less great out of the gate" than Zadina was... Do you see the problem with using hindsight to judge decisions made in the past?

Everyone knew he wasn't worth the draft pick by the end of his first year in Detroit, Yzerman assessed, figured it was worth the risk to try to develop the kid, he had potential, he just didn't have meaningful NHL skills with that potential. Remember, it takes two to trade.

Disagree with this completely... Go search 2019 red Wings forum discussions about the player, or better yet, red Wings fans posting in the general trade thread board in '19, '20, '21 in Zadina related trade proposals.

Dats and Z were Hakan picks, As I said, Holland was a victim of Hakan's success, with Holland thinking it was his own.

By this rational, Yzerman isn't to be credited with current prospects either then, right?

A bit of selective credit/blame at play here.

Your exaggerations and revisionist history is well on display, no one needs to exagerate anything for you, we're trying to correct your view and instead of accepting that you're wrong, you double down at every chance.

What exaggeration?

It is a fact that several publications rated the red Wings prospect pool highly.

Fact that the red Wings in the summer of 2019 did not have many problematic long term contracts on the books.

Fact that Yzerman had fan and ownership buy in for a lengthy rebuild

Fact that Yzerman had ownership willing to spend.

You're the only one making exaggerated and ungrounded claims here.

Also, Zadina was ranked #2 by Central Scouting, ISS had him 3rd, McKeen at 2nd.

Bobby Mac had him 4th

Concencus HW also 4th

No one had Hayton in top 5, Kotkaniemi was a late riser & still a surprise at 3

Bottom line, 6th was not exactly a big fall.

Veleno is a serviceable bottom 6 guy, his contracts aren't outlandish, he's paid for his role.

And Veleno was as high as 6th in some draft rankings...

For centers with 10 to 15 mins toi/gp, he's 12 in scoring with min of 40 gp. (what you would view realistically with bottom 6 center toi/gp) with a salary of 825k.

Sooooo a decent player on a good RFA cap hit?
Not exactly a bad inheritance I'd say