When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[Miller Time]

Nobody is saying they have zero value, but having value does not mean having a 1:1 value to whatever you might trade them for as projected from the very start, and to say Yzerman had a top-10 prospect pool despite the fact it was only speculated by pundits that it was the case is incredibly dishonest.

Who cares about 1:1?

Sergachev didn't have 1:1 value with Drouin when Yzerman trade for him... Yet Yzerman negotiated additional compensation with Sergachev to "give up" Drouin.

Hows that looking in hindsight for the other GM?

Did Yzerman just get lucky in Drouin playeauing/regressing & Sergachev hitting pretty much his ceiling? Or did he make a better evaluation than his counter part?

As I said, opinions don't magically equate to reality.

Actually, yes, they do.
The opinion of a GM = the reality of how they value an asset.

The quality of the assessments informing the opinion of a GM is likely their single most important competency.

Yzerman did far better in that regard while leading the Tampa rebuild than he has displayed thus far in Detroit.

How much value do you think Zadina had in 2020 when he scored 15 points in 28 games?

More than Kasper, who has 0pts in 1 NHL game in his comparable D2 season

Question for you, what's the lowest return you'd accept for Kasper right now?

Or in 2021 when he scored 19 points in 49 games?

Probably as much or more than you'd want for Edvinsson right now, after his D3 season...

Or in 2022 when he scored 24 points in 74 games?

Something in the range of what Perfetti, Jack Quinn, Marco Rossi or Alex Holtz would go for now (all within 10-15pts of production in their similar D4 year... Granted scoring is up).

Do you think Yzerman could have gotten anything close to a 1:1 return for his initial value in any of those years? Do you think it would have been prudent to do so? How much of thse players had you even watched in the years following the rankings you keep bringing up?

He could've got value on par with the players listed above, more or less.

And, for all your obsession with Zadina, it's quite possible that he did exactly the right thing in holding on to Zadina that long... You continue to mistake hindsight for something it is not.

It's not about the ranking itself, it's about the generally perceived value of the assets. Do you really think the multi-publication consensus about the quality of the red Wings prospect pool was an outlier that no NHL team shared?

Do you really think Yzerman in 2019 didn't think he could get more than nothing for Zadina?

Think about that for a second, then revisit your question and you may see how illogical your entire premise is.

We are talking about the prospect pool Yzerman was handed upon his arrival.... WHAT ASSETS? You can't flip prospects that no one wants.

If you think no one wanted Zadina, Veleno, etc. in 2019, you clearly haven't been following hockey very long and it's pointless to continue discussing.

 

[norrisnick]

It's a wholly pointless distraction. Perceived value or not, no GM is going to come into a new gig and immediately trade a pair of 1st round draftees from the year before. You let them develop. They had nothing to develop into. Or the clusterf*** that was the covid years did them in. Is what it is. Had Zadina turned into that 40/40 top line winger and Veleno into that 30/30 2nd line center, we'd be having an entirely different conversation right now. But they didn't.

It would be no different than say Yzerman gets fired this summer and Danielson and ASP don't turn into anything 4 years down the line. Is it the incoming GM's fault for not trading them this fall? The whole farm busts. Does unnamed future GM get the hook for failing with a top 3 prospect pool?

 

[cvaicunas]

Who cares about 1:1?

Sergachev didn't have 1:1 value with Drouin when Yzerman trade for him... Yet Yzerman negotiated additional compensation with Sergachev to "give up" Drouin.

Hows that looking in hindsight for the other GM?

Did Yzerman just get lucky in Drouin playeauing/regressing & Sergachev hitting pretty much his ceiling? Or did he make a better evaluation than his counter part?



Actually, yes, they do.
The opinion of a GM = the reality of how they value an asset.

The quality of the assessments informing the opinion of a GM is likely their single most important competency.

Yzerman did far better in that regard while leading the Tampa rebuild than he has displayed thus far in Detroit.



More than Kasper, who has 0pts in 1 NHL game in his comparable D2 season

Question for you, what's the lowest return you'd accept for Kasper right now?

Probably as much or more than you'd want for Edvinsson right now, after his D3 season...


Something in the range of what Perfetti, Jack Quinn, Marco Rossi or Alex Holtz would go for now (all within 10-15pts of production in their similar D4 year... Granted scoring is up).


He could've got value on par with the players listed above, more or less.

And, for all your obsession with Zadina, it's quite possible that he did exactly the right thing in holding on to Zadina that long... You continue to mistake hindsight for something it is not.

It's not about the ranking itself, it's about the generally perceived value of the assets. Do you really think the multi-publication consensus about the quality of the red Wings prospect pool was an outlier that no NHL team shared?

Do you really think Yzerman in 2019 didn't think he could get more than nothing for Zadina?

Think about that for a second, then revisit your question and you may see how illogical your entire premise is.


If you think no one wanted Zadina, Veleno, etc. in 2019, you clearly haven't been following hockey very long and it's pointless to continue discussing.

Come back after you've watched hockey, or any other sport, for more than a year or two lol

You mean in 2019 when Yzerman was still evaluating these very same prospects. Why would he immediately sell off the highest rated prospects in the system, while tearing the NHL roster down to the studs. No GM was going to do that. Hence, the assets he was handed from Holland have SLOWED DOWN THE REBUILDING PROCESS. Most of the NHL passed on Veleno in the draft, so how desirable was he really? There were concerns that his offense would not translate to the NHL, and that has come to be the case.

 

[lucaseider]

Bad take is a bad take.

Instead of talking about me, why not keep it to talking about hockey.



Asset.
Management.

Once you understand what that means, and how it applies to a general Manager, let's revisit, shall we?

You have the worst take here saying the Wings prospect pool is "arguably" better now then back then. Every person except you know it's far better now, no argument. That invalidates anything you say, because you are completely clueless. 3 sites say they had a top 10 pool, doesn't matter what the rest said!

 

[cvaicunas]

It's a wholly pointless distraction. Perceived value or not, no GM is going to come into a new gig and immediately trade a pair of 1st round draftees from the year before. You let them develop. They had nothing to develop into. Or the clusterf*** that was the covid years did them in. Is what it is. Had Zadina turned into that 40/40 top line winger and Veleno into that 30/30 2nd line center, we'd be having an entirely different conversation right now. But they didn't.

It would be no different than say Yzerman gets fired this summer and Danielson and ASP don't turn into anything 4 years down the line. Is it the incoming GM's fault for not trading them this fall? The whole farm busts. Does unnamed future GM get the hook for failing with a top 3 prospect pool?

You beat me to it

 

[Miller Time]

You have the worst take here saying the Wings prospect pool is "arguably" better now then back then. Every person except you know it's far better now, no argument.

Sure.

I certainly think it is.

Perhaps you don't know what arguably means?

That invalidates anything you say, because you are completely clueless. 3 sites say they had a top 10 pool, doesn't matter what the rest said!

What did "the rest" say? By all means, please link the list of sites that said the Wings had a below average prospect pool

 

[Lampedampe]

Yes.

If you held on to Blockbuster stock and chose not to buy any Netflix stock in the 2000's, then today you'd have terrible returns and be viewed as mediocre at managing a portfolio.

Thank you for making my point.

I literally asked you if he should have traded he prospects, but i see that you lack reading comprehension so it might take a few back and forths to get points across. But no worries, it's not easy. Let me get your reply.

"?

I have no idea what you are even talking about.

I've never said anything close to that."

If you wanna back-track on that then that's fine. Glad you're coming to your senses.

So now let's go back and see in history, what GM's have in the past traded away their prospect pool during a rebuild?

 

[dekelikekocur]

FTR I try not to get excited about OHL guys drafted in 2nd round until (if) we see them in GR, but I confess I am breaking my own rule on Gibson

I'm usually the same on college bound guys but I'm wishing Mazur was up sooner because I refuse to buy a Fanatics jersey and want a DRW Mazur jersey.

 

[Dotter]

Who cares about 1:1?

Sergachev didn't have 1:1 value with Drouin when Yzerman trade for him... Yet Yzerman negotiated additional compensation with Sergachev to "give up" Drouin.

Hows that looking in hindsight for the other GM?

Did Yzerman just get lucky in Drouin playeauing/regressing & Sergachev hitting pretty much his ceiling? Or did he make a better evaluation than his counter part?



Actually, yes, they do.
The opinion of a GM = the reality of how they value an asset.

The quality of the assessments informing the opinion of a GM is likely their single most important competency.

Yzerman did far better in that regard while leading the Tampa rebuild than he has displayed thus far in Detroit.



More than Kasper, who has 0pts in 1 NHL game in his comparable D2 season

Question for you, what's the lowest return you'd accept for Kasper right now?

Probably as much or more than you'd want for Edvinsson right now, after his D3 season...


Something in the range of what Perfetti, Jack Quinn, Marco Rossi or Alex Holtz would go for now (all within 10-15pts of production in their similar D4 year... Granted scoring is up).


He could've got value on par with the players listed above, more or less.

And, for all your obsession with Zadina, it's quite possible that he did exactly the right thing in holding on to Zadina that long... You continue to mistake hindsight for something it is not.

It's not about the ranking itself, it's about the generally perceived value of the assets. Do you really think the multi-publication consensus about the quality of the red Wings prospect pool was an outlier that no NHL team shared?

Do you really think Yzerman in 2019 didn't think he could get more than nothing for Zadina?

Think about that for a second, then revisit your question and you may see how illogical your entire premise is.


If you think no one wanted Zadina, Veleno, etc. in 2019, you clearly haven't been following hockey very long and it's pointless to continue discussing.

Red Wings have arguably the best prospect pool in the entire NHL. That's because of SFY and his outstanding work building that awesome prospect pool. Wings have at least 14 more young players foaming at the bit to get on the team to help the Wings become a powerhouse again. Yzerman is developing them the right way. Once he unleashes them, watch out! They are coming like a hungry pack of lions that smell blood.

Wings are on their way up. They are going to continue to get better each and every season. They are learning to win big games and that will carry over to the playoffs. Building a winning culture is phase 2 since they already have the most robust prospect pool in the entire NHL.

Keep underestimating Yzerman. Your tears are going to taste soooo good and sweet!

 

[Pavels Dog]

But it's not like the Wings non-1st round picks from those years project as anything more than "dime a dozen" players as you refer to it. To the extent they make the NHL at all, it will likely be in such a capacity based on everything they have all shown to date.

Every player's journey is unique... I think you may be dismissing all these other players too quickly while giving the Wings guys a much longer leash and benefit of the doubt. Many players start as depth players and earn bigger opportunities. You rarely go from AHL to 1st liner.

The bolded is such a good point if only you'd be able to apply it to the Wings players as well instead of seemingly making every Wings prospect the exception to that benefit of the doubt.

As I've said, a couple Homeruns outside the 1st round are a must long-term.

Key-word being "long-term". Can't set the expectation at multiple star players per draft.

Who cares about 1:1?

Sergachev didn't have 1:1 value with Drouin when Yzerman trade for him... Yet Yzerman negotiated additional compensation with Sergachev to "give up" Drouin.

Kind of like how Yzerman added Fabbri, Walman & Debrincat while giving up De La Rose & and a late 1st?

 

[Frobbo]

Red Wings have arguably the best prospect pool in the entire NHL. That's because of SFY and his outstanding work building that awesome prospect pool. Wings have at least 14 more young players foaming at the bit to get on the team to help the Wings become a powerhouse again. Yzerman is developing them the right way. Once he unleashes them, watch out! They are coming like a hungry pack of lions that smell blood.

Wings are on their way up. They are going to continue to get better each and every season. They are learning to win big games and that will carry over to the playoffs. Building a winning culture is phase 2 since they already have the most robust prospect pool in the entire NHL.

Keep underestimating Yzerman. Your tears are going to taste soooo good and sweet!

Hyperbole much?

 

[Dotter]

Hyperbole much?

It has to be exciting times to be a Detroit fan... Lions and now DRWs. They deserve it.

 

[Miller Time]

Kind of like how Yzerman added Fabbri, Walman & Debrincat while giving up De La Rose & and a late 1st?

Indeed

 

[Miller Time]

Wings are on their way up.

Pretty hard not to be for a team that's picked in the top ten 7 straight seasons.

They are going to continue to get better each and every season. They are learning to win big games and that will carry over to the playoffs. Building a winning culture is phase 2 since they already have the most robust prospect pool in the entire NHL.

Again, 5 offseasons is a long time to get to "phase 2", especially with what was in place in spring 2019.

Keep underestimating Yzerman. Your tears are going to taste soooo good and sweet!

You continue to misunderstand completely.

 

[Miller Time]

I literally asked you if he should have traded he prospects, but i see that you lack reading comprehension so it might take a few back and forths to get points across. But no worries, it's not easy. Let me get your reply.

I understood your question. It's just irrelevant. That you fail to see that speaks to your difficulty reading the posts you are replying to.

What colour is the sky?

"?

I have no idea what you are even talking about.

I've never said anything close to that."

If you wanna back-track on that then that's fine. Glad you're coming to your senses.

Nope, no back tracking required. I've clarified as best I can.

So now let's go back and see in history, what GM's have in the past traded away their prospect pool during a rebuild?

Google is your friend.

It's really not hard. You will quickly see how foolish the very premise of your question is, as all GMs trade away picks, prospects, young players at any given time... The question is why & for what return.

Why don't you start with Yzerman's trade history lol

 

[norrisnick]

Again, 5 offseasons is a long time to get to "phase 2", especially with what was in place in spring 2019.

Less so if you don't have a complete misunderstanding of what that position actually was like in 2019.

 

[Dotter]

Again, 5 offseasons is a long time to get to "phase 2", especially with what was in place in spring 2019.

If it's so easy then why do so many teams fail at it? Look no further than the Canucks who look like a pile of poo against the Predators.

Look how long it took the oilers, soon the Blackhawks.

DRWs are ahead of the curve based on what 'other' teams have done/are doing.

 

[Miller Time]

If it's so easy then why do so many teams fail at it? Look no further than the Canucks who look like a pile of poo against the Predators.

Look how long it took the oilers, soon the Blackhawks.

DRWs are ahead of the curve based on what 'other' teams have done/are doing.

Who said it was easy?

Less so if you don't have a complete misunderstanding of what that position actually was like in 2019.

Cap space
Strong prospects pool
Picks
Ownership support to spend
No bad long term contracts
Fan support

Doesn't get much better than that

 

[dekelikekocur]

If it's so easy then why do so many teams fail at it? Look no further than the Canucks who look like a pile of poo against the Predators.

Look how long it took the oilers, soon the Blackhawks.

DRWs are ahead of the curve based on what 'other' teams have done/are doing.

Hey now, Cory Pronman was all about our prospect pool in the 18-19 season. That right there means we should already be considered contenders.

For the poster who called out someone for hyperbole, please see this post (what I typed not who I'm replying to) for an example of actual hyperbole, or you know, refer to the many posts by Miller Time keeps spewing for other examples.

 

[dekelikekocur]

Cap space - Wings in 18-19 were a near cap teams
Strong prospects pool yea, no, they had 2 1sts in the system both of which were luke warm at best and neither panned out.
Picks - we did have a couple extra pics going into the 19 draft
Ownership support to spend - near cap teams really can't spend
No bad long term contracts - Abdelkader? Dekeyser?
Fan support - for most wings fans, it's a second religion to follow the team, what it doesn't do is anything regarding rebuild or otherwise.

Doesn't get much better than that

 

[WarriorofTime]

If it's so easy then why do so many teams fail at it? Look no further than the Canucks who look like a pile of poo against the Predators.

Look how long it took the oilers, soon the Blackhawks.

DRWs are ahead of the curve based on what 'other' teams have done/are doing.

8-straight missed postseasons is not "ahead of the curve". You hold every other franchise to the standard of multiple GMs across a wide span of time even though all those fans can speak to big mistakes now fired GMs made, but hold Red Wings to everything begins April of 2019. It is a double standard.

 

[norrisnick]

Cap space
Strong prospects pool
Picks
Ownership support to spend
No bad long term contracts
Fan support

Doesn't get much better than that

Again, with a complete misunderstanding of what he started with, yeah 5 years is a bit long.

 

[Dotter]

8-straight missed postseasons is not "ahead of the curve". You hold every other franchise to the standard of multiple GMs across a wide span of time even though all those fans can speak to big mistakes now fired GMs made, but hold Red Wings to everything begins April of 2019. It is a double standard.

Your point makes more sense from an ignorant point of view. In context, you can see Yzerman has been amazing. He's turning the franchise around in superior fashion. His drafting has been incredible and his trading has been one sided lopped grossly in his favor.

You're the one with the playoff requirements. He's focusing on building a long standing powerhouse. Not a one hit wonder. He's ahead of the curve and has the prospect pool to prove it.

Wings are on their way up despite your desperate attempt to wish it away.

 

[Ezekial]

Bad take is a bad take.

Instead of talking about me, why not keep it to talking about hockey.



Asset.
Management.

Once you understand what that means, and how it applies to a general Manager, let's revisit, shall we?

You're right, a bad take is a bad take.

And any take that says Perron is anything more than a defensive liability at this point is a bad take. Saying he's a positive defensive force is a horrendous take.

 

[cvaicunas]

Pretty hard not to be for a team that's picked in the top ten 7 straight seasons.


Again, 5 offseasons is a long time to get to "phase 2", especially with what was in place in spring 2019.


You continue to misunderstand completely.

71	Dylan Larkin
59	Tyler Bertuzzi
39	Anthony Mantha
14	Robby Fabbri 1
17	Filip Hronek
72	Andreas Athanasiou 2
51	Valtteri Filppula
74	Madison Bowey
43	Darren Helm
11	Filip Zadina
25	Mike Green 2
41	Luke Glendening
81	Frans Nielsen
22	Patrik Nemeth
21	Dennis Cholowski
67	Taro Hirose
83	Trevor Daley
73	Adam Erne
70	Christoffer Ehn
61	Jacob De La Rose 3
29	Brendan Perlini 4
65	Danny Dekeyser
48	Givani Smith
45	Jonathan Bernier
3	Alex Biega
8	Justin Abdelkader
2	Joe Hicketts
89	Sam Gagner 5
32	Brian Lashoff
28	Gustav Lindstrom
26	Cody Goloubef 6
34	Eric Comrie
31	Calvin Pickard
37	Evgeny Svechnikov
15	Dmytro Timashov 7
20	Dylan McIlrath
52	Jonathan Ericsson
35	Jimmy Howard

Goalies
Player Name	GP	Min	GA	GAA	W	L	T	Svs	Pct	EN	SO
Jonathan Bernier
Jimmy Howard
Eric Comrie
Calvin Pickard

This was the Wings roster for the 2019-2020. I can't fathom how one would argue this to be rock solid starting position. He had some additional picks from the Nyquist and Tatar trades, Veleno, Zadina, Ras, and Berggren. That is on the other side of the f**king solar system in comparison to his start at Tampa. Where he had Stamkos, Hedman, and several veterans with value to move.
You also brought forth mention of him trading Drouin, as an argument to moving Zadina? However, you're seemingly ignoring that Drouin was a prospect HE drafted, that HE was highly informed of. That also contrasts greatly to a prospect in Zadina, who he had not drafted, who he was not familar with, and who the team was clearly trying to develop.