What would you choose going into the playoffs? (D and goalie)

[amnesiac]

Choose one for the playoffs.

When I say “defence” I mean in terms of goals against, system etc…. Not necessarily the individual dmen

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[Machinehead]

Good goalies don't win Cups, hot goalies do. A bad goalie can get hot. I'll take my chances with the best possible team in front of him.

"Great goalie and bad defense" should not receive any votes. It doesn't work.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

An average goalie could still get hot and go on a run, and a hot goalie can carry an average D but not a bad D. A bad goalie probably isn't going on a run and can't really be overcome

 

[Machinehead]

An average goalie could still get hot and go on a run, and a hot goalie can carry an average D but not a bad D. A bad goalie probably isn't going on a run and can't really be overcome

Matt Murray did it twice.

He's literally never been a good goalie in the NHL outside of his two Cup runs.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

Matt Murray did it twice.

He's literally never been a good goalie in the NHL outside of his two Cup runs.

gonna have to disagree with you there, his first 3 full seasons with the Pens were well above average. His play fell off a cliff after that but he was a good goalie to start his career.

 

[Machinehead]

gonna have to disagree with you there, his first 3 full seasons with the Pens were well above average. His play fell off a cliff after that but he was a good goalie to start his career.

Ok, when was Jordan Binnington good?

Braden Holtby certainly was good, but by the time Washington won the Cup, he was already in the twilight of his career during which he posted -32.2 GSAA in five seasons.

Bad goalies and goalies who were washed up have won the Cup.

Hell, the Avalanche won the Cup with both goalies playing like shit during the Cup run.

 

[Machinehead]

I mean, here's a list of at least somewhat questionable goaltenders that have won the Cup in recent years:

Matt Murray
Jordan Binnington
Darcy Kuemper/Pavel Francouz
Adin Hill

Hill has been great this year so we'll see, but he walked into the playoffs last year a 26-year-old career backup and won the Cup.

Here's all the Vezina winners that have a Cup in the last decade-plus:

Andrei Vasilevskiy

And Vasilevskiy was on an absolutely stacked team. Great goalies monopolizing the Cup is something that sounds like it makes sense but almost never actually happens in this era.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

I mean, here's a list of at least somewhat questionable goaltenders that have won the Cup in recent years:

Matt Murray
Jordan Binnington
Darcy Kuemper/Pavel Francouz
Adin Hill

Hill has been great this year so we'll see, but he walked into the playoffs last year a 26-year-old career backup and won the Cup.

Here's all the Vezina winners that have a Cup in the last decade-plus:

Andrei Vasilevskiy

And Vasilevskiy was on an absolutely stacked team. Great goalies monopolizing the Cup is something that sounds like it makes sense but almost never actually happens in this era.

I think all those guys can be characterized as average goalies. Binnington had 3 straight years .910 sv% or above, Kuemper has a career .916, Hill too small of a sample size to really tell but he's a career .913.

I guess my distinction is truly "bad" goalies just don't ever really play in the playoffs because there are enough average goalies for teams to have a couple of them and not ever have to play a bad goalie in the playoffs, and teams who have bad goalies over the course of a season don't really make the playoffs in the first place. A goalie with a career sv% around .900 or worse is what I'd call bad, I can't think of anyone fitting that description who has gotten hot enough to make a legit playoff run. Maybe there's a few examples but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

 

[bobholly39]

Voted option 1 - but it depends entirely on the goalie.

As a Habs fan - I voted this with Carey Price in mind. Very few goalies in history I would make this selection for.

Option 2 is bad all around. So option 3 is the other obvious choice, if I can't get a goalie I myself consider "great enough".

 

[blundluntman]

Good goalies don't win Cups, hot goalies do. A bad goalie can get hot. I'll take my chances with the best possible team in front of him.

"Great goalie and bad defense" should not receive any votes. It doesn't work.

I think you're getting caught up in semantics here and missing the point. As far as I can tell, the poll's asking whether a team can win a cup with a goalie currently playing poorly which would rule out the hot goaltender. Examples would be guys like Skinner and Campbell for Edmonton last year. Colorado in 2022 is a good example of great defense but bad goaltending. Kuemper that year put up a .902 and we still won off the quality of our forwards/defensemen

 

[NyQuil]

Bad goalie and great defence.

 

[Machinehead]

I think all those guys can be characterized as average goalies. Binnington had 3 straight years .910 sv% or above, Kuemper has a career .916, Hill too small of a sample size to really tell but he's a career .913.

I guess my distinction is truly "bad" goalies just don't ever really play in the playoffs because there are enough average goalies for teams to have a couple of them and not ever have to play a bad goalie in the playoffs, and teams who have bad goalies over the course of a season don't really make the playoffs in the first place. A goalie with a career sv% around .900 or worse is what I'd call bad, I can't think of anyone fitting that description who has gotten hot enough to make a legit playoff run. Maybe there's a few examples but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

I guess that's a fair point. If you draw the line of "bad" at around .900 then the whole premise is a non-starter because goalies that bad don't play.

Except Binnington. He just kinda sucks lol.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

I guess that's a fair point. If you draw the line of "bad" at around .900 then the whole premise is a non-starter because goalies that bad don't play.

Except Binnington. He just kinda sucks lol.

I mean how else would you define bad in the context of the poll? You need to differentiate bad and average and I think the large majority of NHL goalies can all be grouped into average with stretches of great play and stretches of bad play. The difference between low end average and high end average is just so small in my view and entirely depends on whether the goalie is hot or cold. There's enough of those average goalies that bad goalies really don't play much. Then there's a handful of goalies who are consistently great

 

[NyQuil]

I think there are a lot of average/average teams out there so you really have to go with one extreme option or the other and roll the dice.

I think a great defence is more sustainable in the playoffs than a great goalie, which is why I went in that direction.

 

[pi314]

gonna have to disagree with you there, his first 3 full seasons with the Pens were well above average. His play fell off a cliff after that but he was a good goalie to start his career.

He was a top 5 goalie before his concussion and death of his father.

Was never the same after that.

Definitely wasn’t just lucky or hot.

 

[Midnight Judges]

In the playoffs any weak link can be exposed. So I'll take the average as opposed to having a glaring weakness.

 

[Thallis]

I mean, here's a list of at least somewhat questionable goaltenders that have won the Cup in recent years:

Matt Murray
Jordan Binnington
Darcy Kuemper/Pavel Francouz
Adin Hill

Hill has been great this year so we'll see, but he walked into the playoffs last year a 26-year-old career backup and won the Cup.

Here's all the Vezina winners that have a Cup in the last decade-plus:

Andrei Vasilevskiy

And Vasilevskiy was on an absolutely stacked team. Great goalies monopolizing the Cup is something that sounds like it makes sense but almost never actually happens in this era.

Francouz is the only goalie in that list who isn't at least average. Maybe Hill, but we'll see.

 

[LokiDog]

Good goalies don't win Cups, hot goalies do. A bad goalie can get hot. I'll take my chances with the best possible team in front of him.

"Great goalie and bad defense" should not receive any votes. It doesn't work.

What’s the difference between a bad goalie and an average goalie anyway at this level? Likely the team in front. I’ll take the great (team) defense and a bad goalie.

 

[Thallis]

What’s the difference between a bad goalie and an average goalie anyway at this level? Likely the team in front. I’ll take the great (team) defense and a bad goalie.

Bad Goalies are the ones who lose you series, Average goalies are the ones that play to the standard of the team. Great goalies can steal you a series

Anyone voting the "Bad goalie" option is not thinking of bad goalies or hasn't watched a bad goalie sink their season before. The mid 10s Blues are the perfect example. Good offense, great defense, Jake Allen in net

 

[EichHart]

Matt Murray did it twice.

He's literally never been a good goalie in the NHL outside of his two Cup runs.

Hasek had some of the worst teams in NHL history in front of him and went to the cup.

 

[Machinehead]

Hasek had some of the worst teams in NHL history in front of him and went to the cup.

He's the greatest goalie in NHL history and he still didn't win it.

 

[NyQuil]

He's the greatest goalie in NHL history and he still didn't win it.

 

[Machinehead]

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Obviously I meant on the shitty team he was on.

The closest a goalie has come to dragging a mid team all the way is JSG in 2003 but I would say it has never actually happened.

Matter of fact, I struggle to think of a great goalie even winning with a bad defensive team who could score, unless you wanna go back to the 80's.

 

[NyQuil]

Obviously I meant on the shitty team he was on.

The closest a goalie has come to dragging a mid team all the way is JSG in 2003 but I would say it has never actually happened.

Matter of fact, I struggle to think of a great goalie even winning with a bad defensive team who could score, unless you wanna go back to the 80's.

Cam Ward?

 

[TBF1972]

Hasek had some of the worst teams in NHL history in front of him and went to the cup.

hasek doesn't qualify as a great goalie.

he is a tier or two above that.