What would an all-time best on best tournament look like?

[vadim sharifijanov]

matthew tkachuk modano kane
leclair lafontaine pavelski
stevens matthews wheeler
drury otto kesler

howe chelios
langway leetch
ryan suter derian hatcher

quick
barrasso


is wheeler a little overboard to get a playmaking winger for matthews?

am i a crazyass homer for thinking i might find a place on an all time team USA for quinn hughes and jt miller?

 

[VanIslander]

Hasek & Jagr would be smirking like the Joker:

 

[Overrated]

CSSR

Elias - Peter Stasny - Jagr
Jiri Holik - Novy - Martinec
Liba - Nedomansky - Hossa
Anton Stasny - Hlinka - Lala
Golonka, Palffy

Chara - Suchy
Pospisil - Mahac
Svoboda - Bubla
Gut

Hasek
Holecek

Liba, Lala and Anton Stastny don't belong there.

None of them are viewed particularly highly in Czechia.

Years that European players would have won NHL accolades

The idea here is identifying seasons in which European players who weren't in the NHL would have won awards or all-star nods had they been in the NHL. I don't feel all that well versed on individual seasons for the European guys, so I don't have a lot of suggestions, but I'll make a couple. I...

forums.hfboards.com

Even on the full list you can only find Lala sharing 33-36th place and that is a list without any Slovak players: Dominik Hašek je nejlepším hráčem všech dob - iDNES.cz

I don't think there was a list made like that in Slovakia. The best I could find on the Slovak net was this Slovak list made by a hockey blogger and he wouldn't pick Liba nor Anton even for a team without any Czechs.

Najlepší hokejoví reprezentanti Slovenska – historický „Dream team“ - Martin Zachar - (blog.sme.sk)

TOP 23 slovenských hokejistov, alebo aká by bola hypotetická, historicky najlepšia zostava slovenskej hokejovej reprezentácie?

blog.sme.sk

The 1980s players are not very highly rated within Czechia and Slovakia. Give me Pasternak and Demitra instead. Promote Palffy into the main squad. Vladimir Ruzicka and Bondra could be there on the bench. I am aware this team would have way too many centers but it's better to turn a center into a winger than to have a vastly inferior player there.

edit: I would try to fit Hamrlik into the team also. Probably Kaberle too.

 

[Namba 17]

Liba, Lala and Anton Stastny don't belong there.

None of them are viewed particularly highly in Czechia.

Years that European players would have won NHL accolades

The idea here is identifying seasons in which European players who weren't in the NHL would have won awards or all-star nods had they been in the NHL. I don't feel all that well versed on individual seasons for the European guys, so I don't have a lot of suggestions, but I'll make a couple. I...

forums.hfboards.com

Even on the full list you can only find Lala sharing 33-36th place and that is a list without any Slovak players: Dominik Hašek je nejlepším hráčem všech dob - iDNES.cz

You are Ze expert, bro. You know what True is and what is not.

 

[JackSlater]

Something like this for USA:

K. Tkachuk Modano Hull/Mullen
LeClair Matthews Kane
M. Tkachuk Lafontaine Roenick
Parise Kesler Pavelski
Weight, Otto

Howe Chelios
R. Suter Leetch
Langway Fox
G. Suter, D. Hatcher

Quick
Brimsek
Hellebuyck

I think USA as things currently stand would be significantly better on NHL sized ice with NHL rules, a lot of crease crashing among their best. Sort of an unusual team to build with not a whole lot of playmaking at centre, which is why I wanted Weight. I usually don't include Hull he'd make for a far more competitive team so I included a Hull option. A few healthy Jack Hughes seasons would help this team. This is a terrible time for Matthews and honestly despite what he's done he's not a player who seems scary on the ice, but in the future memories of the player fade and the numbers remain so he'll look better. Could still be quite dangerous with Kane carrying the mail for him. I almost didn't include K. Tkachuk but decided you have to roll the dice and hope for the best along the lines of the 1996 World Cup.

I like the way the American defence fits together, and I threw in G. Suter for power play and dirty play. I think Fox has just done enough to make it and I like that he is right handed, but I'm not there with Quinn Hughes as I think he'd get eaten alive. There are a few options for goaltenders and other than Thomas you can't really go wrong with the main contenders.

 

[VanIslander]

Since this is hockey history: Czechoslovakia seems to me, as a Canadian whose paternal grandma was "Valuska", worthy of uniting.... but i get it if anti-Soviet gtfooh sentiment prevents the thought experiment.

 

[Overrated]

Since this is hockey history: Czechoslovakia seems to me, as a Canadian whose paternal grandma was "Valuska", worthy of uniting.... but i get it if anti-Soviet gtfooh sentiment prevents the thought experiment.

Czechoslovakia is not associated with the USSR or communism. It was a capitalistic country from 1918 up until 1948. I too think it should be united. I also would love to see Yugoslavia united squaring it off against the USA in the finals of an international basketball tournament.

 

[JackSlater]

My team Canada

Lemieux Gretzky Cook
McDavid Beliveau Howe
Messier Clarke Lindros
Hull Crosby Bergeron
Richard, Yzerman

Pronger Orr
Harvey Bourque
Potvin Shore
Makar, Kelly

Roy
Brodeur
Hall

I think Gretzky and Lemieux is too tempting to keep apart. I don't love any option as their RW, but Cook brings another scorer to finish plays and a physical element, plus I don't want to go overkill with Howe there. I see Howe and Beliveau working together very well as Canada's most well rounded pairing, and I think McDavid fits well there bringing all time elite skating and I could see him working with Howe as a very rich man's Draisaitl. Lindros is interesting to me and he's pretty much a must in my eyes. He brings a unique element (elite offence with nearly best in the world physicality) to any team, I think his game easily translates to RW, and his weaknesses don't really apply in a short tournament where he isn't relied on to lead. Hull's goal scoring is too valuable not to pick, I could see him working well with Crosby based on his time in Winnipeg. Bergeron is the worst player on the team but I like his elite defence plus the proven ability to play with elite scorers and Crosby specifically, plus I like having an elite RHC for some defensive situations. I went with Richard for mystique and I went with Yzerman as a well rounded player with elite speed who can play C or RW... and because he's my favourite player ever.

I think that most of Canada's defence picks itself. I don't love Orr with Harvey because I want Orr to have the puck as much as possible and Harvey was puck dominant, plus I recall Harvey being the defenceman who more often chases in the zone rather than the one who clears out the front of the net, and I see Orr in that role. Pronger may stand out here but on his day I think he's near the level of the non-Orr defencemen and with a small changes his on-paper legacy stacks up much better, plus I like his size and that he can be effective next to Orr even if he barely has the puck. Makar also stands out but I wanted another RHD and realistically he's been a consensus top 5 or 6 player for years now and has been the best defenceman (barring injuries) in the NHL at least three different seasons already. Kelly is a must to me since he can play defence, wing, and centre.

I don't think that which goaltender is selected really matters. Is Roy better than Plante or Sawchuk? I don't know, but I like his mentality and he's at least one of the guys on the shortlist for best ever. Brodeur and Hall seem to be easy to get along with and I can see them accepting a backup role much more easily than some other top goaltenders ever.

 

[Namba 17]

USA

LaClair - Modano - Brett Hull
M. Tkachuk - Matthews - Kane
Parise - Roenik - Amonte
J.T. Miller - Kesler - Oshie
Pavelski, LaFontaine

Leetch - Chelios
Langway - Howe
D. Hatcher - A.Fox
G.Suter

Quick
Brimsek
Vanbiesbrouck

 

[VanIslander]

@JackSlater

• Lindros as 3rd RW but Richard undressed?
• Red Kelly out of the building as 8th dman?
• Heck, leave Yzerman off a playoff starting squad.

Are you trying to lose?

 

[MadLuke]

I could see someone taking 95-98 Lindros on a all-time world squad let alone Team Canada, the biggest forward you would bring that was almost keeping up with peak Jagr scoring, and on intl Teams Canada from the juniors, world cup, world championship, Olympics pre fully concussed he was good.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

You can probably make two Canadian teams that could contend for gold (say before/after 1980):

Team Canada post-1980

Messier - Gretzky - St. Louis
Kariya - Lemieux - Recchi
Shanahan - Crosby - Iginla
Robitaille - McDavid - Fleury

Bourque - Stevens
MacInnis - Pronger
Coffey - Keith

Roy
Brodeur

Team Canada pre-1980

Lindsay - Beliveau - Howe
Hull - Clarke - Richard
Joliat - Morenz - Lafleur
Moore - Trottier - Bossy

Harvey - Potvin
Shore - Robinson
Kelly - Park

Plante
Hall

I put this together quickly and I'm sure there are some omissions (I just noticed the pre-1980 team is missing Mikita - not going to bother re-doing the lines).

I also tried to keep keep everyone in their natural positions, so the modern team is missing (for example) Sakic and Yzerman, but there was room for Recchi and Robitialle.

 

[jigglysquishy]

The pre 1980 defense looks stellar, even though it's missing Orr.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

The pre 1980 defense looks stellar, even though it's missing Orr.

That's such a bad omission I might not be able to post on HOH anymore.

 

[Professor What]

That's such a bad omission I might not be able to post on HOH anymore.

If someone new suddenly comes along, we'll know it's you.

 

[JackSlater]

@JackSlater

• Lindros as 3rd RW but Richard undressed?
• Red Kelly out of the building as 8th dman?
• Heck, leave Yzerman off a playoff starting squad.

Are you trying to lose?

Yes, the team is in fact designed to lose.

I could see someone taking 95-98 Lindros on a all-time world squad let alone Team Canada, the biggest forward you would bring that was almost keeping up with peak Jagr scoring, and on intl Teams Canada from the juniors, world cup, world championship, Olympics pre fully concussed he was good.

There's no all time great who does what Lindros does game to game, and good teams are versatile. Lindros is a balanced offensive player who, if healthy, contends for scoring titles and brings a game to game physical presence that no one who can score like him brings. Proven in the playoffs, internationally, and with a game that translates easily to the wing. He's not as smart as some of the all time greats but he doesn't need to be the brain of his line and he won't cost you a game with his temper. Durability issues don't matter in this context. To me he's right in the group below the forwards who have to be selected (Gretzky, Lemieux, Hull, Beliveau, Crosby, McDavid) automatically.



Team Canada 2

Mahovlich Trottier Bossy
Morenz Sakic Lafleur
Moore Esposito Iginla
Lindsay Mikita MacKinnon
Keon, C. Conacher

Robinson Savard
Park MacInnis
Coffey Horton
Doughty, Stevens

Plante
Price
Belfour

Trottier and Bossy are an elite pair even at this level, and Mahovlich brings a lot of good tools (knows how to play defensively, big, fast) to complement them. He usually played well with strong two way centres so I'm hoping that the good Mahovlich shows up rather than the disappointing one... ideally he plays the role of a rich man's Marleau from Canada's 2010s best on best teams. Mahovlich's international performances do scare me though. Lafleur is hard for me to build around but I could see Sakic playing the role of a better Lemaire and Morenz a much better Shutt. Esposito's line would just be sent out to score, with Moore the best available player to work the boards for him and Iginla as a big strong linemate to help feed Esposito but also score. I am not sure about how Mikita's line would work, mainly because Mikita and Hull wasn't great so I'm unsure about MacKinnon here. MacKinnon is good enough for this level and he likely would have been a winger if he developed before Canada put every good player at centre, plus he has played wing internationally. I think he brings variety to the line and if it doesn't work Conacher should fit decently. I really like Keon's game in video and I like him for a defensive role better than I do H. Richard. I really wanted Apps here but couldn't justify it.

I avoided a few defencemen I can't really envision playing and tried to make decently balanced pairs. Doughty belongs in my opinion as he's the third best Canadian defenceman this century and the second best defenceman overall in the 2010s, elite defensively and his offensive limitation (not that good on the powerplay) isn't relevant here given the other defencemen. Plante is probably the best available goaltender, Price was elite and had a good temperament, and I went with Belfour over goaltenders of similar calibre since he was an ideal third stringer in 2002.

 

[MadLuke]

Bossy

That one I was just thinking about.

On Cup Canada, Bossy scored 13 goals in 15 games, 61 in 72 playoff games during the dynasty (playoff scoring was 3.55 gpg, 3.3 if you were not the Isles-Oilers, not the near 4.00 of the regular season of that time), how many scored more in high level and stake hockey ?

I guess you can go to build a team good enough, that you are in the third and need a goal scenario does not exist.

But if it happen, how much you love having Gretzky-Lemieux and one of the Bossy-Richard to make it happen. In tight defensive hockey against elite competition, you need a goal, Mike Bossy.... nice to have.

 

[JackSlater]

That one I was just thinking about.

On Cup Canada, Bossy scored 13 goals in 15 games, 61 in 72 playoff games during the dynasty (playoff scoring was 3.55 gpg, 3.3 if you were not the Isles-Oilers, not the near 4.00 of the regular season of that time), how many scored more in high level and stake hockey ?

I guess you can go to build a team good enough, that you are in the third and need a goal scenario does not exist.

But if it happen, how much you love having Gretzky-Lemieux and one of the Bossy-Richard to make it happen. In tight defensive hockey against elite competition, you need a goal, Mike Bossy.... nice to have.

I agree that Bossy is really tempting. A natural winger, elite goal scorer and also a good playmaker, decent defensively, proven in high pressure moments, and given his play style he probably works well with almost any centre. Sometimes you do just need a goal scorer to decide things.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

I put this together quickly and I'm sure there are some omissions (I just noticed the pre-1980 team is missing Mikita - not going to bother re-doing the lines).

Trust your first impression, H.O.- trust your first impression.

 

[Professor What]

Trust your first impression, H.O.- trust your first impression.

Not sure that applies when you forget Bobby Orr. Lol

 

[MadLuke]

Bourque - Stevens
MacInnis - Pronger
Coffey - Keith

Looking at Makar play yesterday, should he not be on most list to play on intl ice ?

Pronger international play warrant a spot over him ? Is there a version of Stevens you bring for that type of tourney and referees over him ?

The way Doughty played is another one I would consider above them.

Could be unfair but Doughty-Keith defense core looked like they always won.

 

[The Pale King]

Finnish-Canadian here. Historically their identity (speedy, defensively sound with excellent goaltending) is a great blueprint to build around on the larger ice surface and has let them punch well above their weight in terms of medal-results.

Kurri is on his off-wing (he's adaptable), and I didn't worry about handedness for defensemen. I think that third line could check with the best of them.

Kurri - S. Koivu - Selanne
O. Jokinen - M. Koivu - Rantanen
Tikkanen - Barkov - Lehtinen
Hintz - J. Jokinen - Aho

Timmonen -Numminen
Heiskanen - Salo
Lumme - Ruotsalainen

Miika Kiprusoff
Pekka Rinne
Tuuka Rask

 

[WarriorofTime]

Looking at Makar play yesterday, should he not be on most list to play on intl ice ?

Probably, but maybe people want to wait until the book is fully written on current players.

I think part of issue with comparing current vs. past is current players get consideration with warts and all that may be seen at a given moment in time but past only the lionized best version of themselves.

 

[Namba 17]

My attempt on team Canada

Lemieux - Gretzky - Howe
Hull - Nighbor - Cook
Lindsay - Beliveau - M. Richard
Messier - Morenz - Lafleur
Mikita, Trottier

Kelly - Orr
Harvey - Bourque
Pronger - Robinson
Potvin

Plante
Roy
Hall

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Finnish-Canadian here. Historically their identity (speedy, defensively sound with excellent goaltending) is a great blueprint to build around on the larger ice surface and has let them punch well above their weight in terms of medal-results.

Kurri is on his off-wing (he's adaptable), and I didn't worry about handedness for defensemen. I think that third line could check with the best of them.

Kurri - S. Koivu - Selanne
O. Jokinen - M. Koivu - Rantanen
Tikkanen - Barkov - Lehtinen
Hintz - J. Jokinen - Aho

Timmonen -Numminen
Heiskanen - Salo
Lumme - Ruotsalainen

Miika Kiprusoff
Pekka Rinne
Tuuka Rask

Appreciate the effort, but I don’t see them winning without Myllys.

Also would really love to see Jarkko Ruuttu there to drive home the pesky.