Speculation: What to do?

[TK 421]

Why trade for him when we can just try to sign him in the off-season? No rush and why hurt the tank?

Lol I really didn't think this through did I?

It's the blood in the water in Ottawa, I see Stone just sitting there and you know Eugene doesn't want to pay anyone. I'm thinking "Doug get on that ****!"and I've been thinking it for a while. Of course that was before everything turned into a raging tire fire and I started watching Jack Hughes videos.

 

[Xanadude]

my ideal re-tool plan:

1. Ride out the season with Berube and line up his successor for the future. End the Van Ryn experiment. Make clear we're playing for roster spots next year.
2. Waive J-bo unless someone's willing to take him for a pick. Eat salary if need be.
3. If there is a clubhouse cancer--especially if it's Steen, as someone'll want him for depth and hes clearly past his prime--send them packing for nhl-ready prospects.
4. Especially if we continue to bomb, ship out Maroon, Bortuzzo and Gunnarsson (and Johnson, I guess, if anyone wants him?) for picks or a B prospect. Same goes to a far lesser extent with Perron and Bozak.
5. Speak frankly with Schenn and Petro about their plans with FA. If they aren't willing to sign early or plan to test the market (for which I wouldn't blame Schenn in the slightest), dangle them for the best package we can get. Both would get a huge haul.
6. With some vets moved and salary shed, play kids. Kyrou, Mikkola, Husso, maybe even Kostin. See what we've got.
7. And another nice side effect of moving vets: use our cap room to eat a bad contract to get additional picks/prospects.
8. If there's a goalie swap with Allen, explore it. If not, look to improve goaltending in FA.
9. The offseason is a long ways away, but Mark Stone would be a really nice piece. Additionally, any defense-first LHD would be awesome, provided we don't get one in a trade.
10. Hughes. Please god.

 

[542365]

I don't think it's really even a question, we need to retool this group. It needs to be a substantial retool, though, because just bringing in a goalie and a decent LHD is not going to do the trick unless that goalie is Dominik Hasek reincarnated. I do think goaltender is our #1 concern and what needs to be addressed first, possibly in season. I think our best option is to try to find a youngish goalie who isn't getting starts too often because he's behind an experienced #1. Guys that fit that bill are Aaron Dell in San Jose, Garrett Sparks in Toronto, maybe DeSmith in Pittsburgh if they still believe in Murray, Georgiev in New York(though he's had a pretty rough time in North America, but goaltending experts seem to like him a lot) etc. I don't think any of them would cost a ton, but we'd have to give the other team a reason to trade him, so a decent pick or B level prospect might need to be moved. That won't solve our problems over night, but I think it would be a step in the right direction. They may be even worse than Jake, but we know for a fact Jake isn't the guy, so we should be trying everything to find the guy(including giving Binnington and/or Husso some games).

 

[ScratchCatFever]

I'm not sure that it matters really. I think we need to start asking the question of 'Do players outside and currently in the organization view St. Louis as a good city to play for an extended period of time and raise a family'?
Let's be realistic about it. Regardless of what's true or media fabrication- and it goes both ways. St. Louis is viewed as a middling, downward treading economic black hole that is unsafe and has serious racial tension and disparities.
Is it pure coincidence and timid ownership tactics that have cost the Cardinals from landing difference making free agents the last 4 years?
Perron, for whatever reason loves it here and re-signed. Maroon wanted to be close to his son. Bozak was offered a ridiculous amount of money for what he is. Schenn and ROR were traded here without much choice in the matter. Tarasenkos body language has read as a man who wants out of this town the last couple years and his play has started to reflect it bit by bit as well.
This is all my own humble opinion of course, but it is what I believe is a solid root of the problem.
My point being that if 90% of your off season moves are made through trades it's hard to take measure on who really wants to be here and how much motivation they have to play for the city they are in. This teams problems are much deeper than front office, coaching, and ownership. I believe St. Louis is viewed as unmanned fire hose with serious social and economic issues.

 

[WeWentBlues]

I'm not sure that it matters really. I think we need to start asking the question of 'Do players outside and currently in the organization view St. Louis as a good city to play for an extended period of time and raise a family'?
Let's be realistic about it. Regardless of what's true or media fabrication- and it goes both ways. St. Louis is viewed as a middling, downward treading economic black hole that is unsafe and has serious racial tension and disparities.
Is it pure coincidence and timid ownership tactics that have cost the Cardinals from landing difference making free agents the last 4 years?
Perron, for whatever reason loves it here and re-signed. Maroon wanted to be close to his son. Bozak was offered a ridiculous amount of money for what he is. Schenn and ROR were traded here without much choice in the matter. Tarasenkos body language has read as a man who wants out of this town the last couple years and his play has started to reflect it bit by bit as well.
This is all my own humble opinion of course, but it is what I believe is a solid root of the problem.
My point being that if 90% of your off season moves are made through trades it's hard to take measure on who really wants to be here and how much motivation they have to play for the city they are in. This teams problems are much deeper than front office, coaching, and ownership. I believe St. Louis is viewed as unmanned fire hose with serious social and economic issues.

Just stop. Good grief.

 

[ScratchCatFever]

Just stop. Good grief.

Thanks for the detailed feedback. Like I said it was just an opinion. Isn't that what discussion forums are for? I'd be happy to hear yours without dismissing it like you're an uneducated derelict.

 

[mk80]

I don't think it's really even a question, we need to retool this group. It needs to be a substantial retool, though, because just bringing in a goalie and a decent LHD is not going to do the trick unless that goalie is Dominik Hasek reincarnated. I do think goaltender is our #1 concern and what needs to be addressed first, possibly in season. I think our best option is to try to find a youngish goalie who isn't getting starts too often because he's behind an experienced #1. Guys that fit that bill are Aaron Dell in San Jose, Garrett Sparks in Toronto, maybe DeSmith in Pittsburgh if they still believe in Murray, Georgiev in New York(though he's had a pretty rough time in North America, but goaltending experts seem to like him a lot) etc. I don't think any of them would cost a ton, but we'd have to give the other team a reason to trade him, so a decent pick or B level prospect might need to be moved. That won't solve our problems over night, but I think it would be a step in the right direction. They may be even worse than Jake, but we know for a fact Jake isn't the guy, so we should be trying everything to find the guy(including giving Binnington and/or Husso some games).

Out of that group of goalies I think Dell or Desmith would be the best. That said the goalie market in Free Agency will be pretty good this summer. You could try selling Allen at the deadline and I think seeing what Binnington's got in this write off year isn't a bad strategy.

 

[Majorityof1]

I'm not sure that it matters really. I think we need to start asking the question of 'Do players outside and currently in the organization view St. Louis as a good city to play for an extended period of time and raise a family'?
Let's be realistic about it. Regardless of what's true or media fabrication- and it goes both ways. St. Louis is viewed as a middling, downward treading economic black hole that is unsafe and has serious racial tension and disparities.
Is it pure coincidence and timid ownership tactics that have cost the Cardinals from landing difference making free agents the last 4 years?
Perron, for whatever reason loves it here and re-signed. Maroon wanted to be close to his son. Bozak was offered a ridiculous amount of money for what he is. Schenn and ROR were traded here without much choice in the matter. Tarasenkos body language has read as a man who wants out of this town the last couple years and his play has started to reflect it bit by bit as well.
This is all my own humble opinion of course, but it is what I believe is a solid root of the problem.
My point being that if 90% of your off season moves are made through trades it's hard to take measure on who really wants to be here and how much motivation they have to play for the city they are in. This teams problems are much deeper than front office, coaching, and ownership. I believe St. Louis is viewed as unmanned fire hose with serious social and economic issues.

There is a whole video on the Blues site about how much Tarasenko loves the city and calls it home. It could all be PR BS, but would they really choose someone who despises it here and wants out? Do you think Tarasenko's body language is due to the city taking a downturn the past two years or the team's play? Which is more likely, we are losing and Vladdy is struggling, so he seems dispirited on the ice? Or, Vladdy suddenly realized the city sucks and so he started slumping and the team went to hell?

 

[Alklha]

I'm not sure that it matters really. I think we need to start asking the question of 'Do players outside and currently in the organization view St. Louis as a good city to play for an extended period of time and raise a family'?
Let's be realistic about it. Regardless of what's true or media fabrication- and it goes both ways. St. Louis is viewed as a middling, downward treading economic black hole that is unsafe and has serious racial tension and disparities.
Is it pure coincidence and timid ownership tactics that have cost the Cardinals from landing difference making free agents the last 4 years?
Perron, for whatever reason loves it here and re-signed. Maroon wanted to be close to his son. Bozak was offered a ridiculous amount of money for what he is. Schenn and ROR were traded here without much choice in the matter. Tarasenkos body language has read as a man who wants out of this town the last couple years and his play has started to reflect it bit by bit as well.
This is all my own humble opinion of course, but it is what I believe is a solid root of the problem.
My point being that if 90% of your off season moves are made through trades it's hard to take measure on who really wants to be here and how much motivation they have to play for the city they are in. This teams problems are much deeper than front office, coaching, and ownership. I believe St. Louis is viewed as unmanned fire hose with serious social and economic issues.

That's just nonsense.

Hockey is an extremely small world and players who get offers to sign in St. Louis will know people who have played with the Blues. Those who play here have positive views of the place.

Are initial impressions and preconceived ideas beneficial? No, but they also aren't difficult to overcome.

You can say that Tarasenko wants out of town, but he signed an 8 year contract when it was in his best interests to sign a bridge or a 5 year deal. He gave up all his prime years without getting a stupid premium.

Bozak has been disappointing, but he'd have certainly had offers at least similar to what he signed for. ~$100k per point, with a premium on top of that for centres, was the baseline when the cap was $10m lower. He got his value, whether he works out of not.

Schwartz, Parayko, Stevens, etc have been happy to sign here out of college.

Shattenkirk is the one player that has wanted out, and that's because he was crazy and willing to leave an insane amount of money on the table to play for the team he supported.

 

[Frenzy31]

I'm not sure that it matters really. I think we need to start asking the question of 'Do players outside and currently in the organization view St. Louis as a good city to play for an extended period of time and raise a family'?
Let's be realistic about it. Regardless of what's true or media fabrication- and it goes both ways. St. Louis is viewed as a middling, downward treading economic black hole that is unsafe and has serious racial tension and disparities.
Is it pure coincidence and timid ownership tactics that have cost the Cardinals from landing difference making free agents the last 4 years?
Perron, for whatever reason loves it here and re-signed. Maroon wanted to be close to his son. Bozak was offered a ridiculous amount of money for what he is. Schenn and ROR were traded here without much choice in the matter. Tarasenkos body language has read as a man who wants out of this town the last couple years and his play has started to reflect it bit by bit as well.
This is all my own humble opinion of course, but it is what I believe is a solid root of the problem.
My point being that if 90% of your off season moves are made through trades it's hard to take measure on who really wants to be here and how much motivation they have to play for the city they are in. This teams problems are much deeper than front office, coaching, and ownership. I believe St. Louis is viewed as unmanned fire hose with serious social and economic issues.

St. Louis has the same issues that all major city's in the USA have. Bring up racial tensions and disparities - shoot we even have that in Toledo. Not sure what Cardinal ownership has to do with the Blues - but maybe, just maybe they see no reason to spend 20-40 million on a player per year......

St. Louis will never be a hot bed for hockey - but for all the talk of Montreal and Toronto - they aren't exactly getting every prime UFA. UFAs have earned themselves a choice of where to play and each makes that decision based on a number of factors (#1 being family).

As for what needs to happen: everyone has kind of already discussed it. Clearly we are all on the NEW COACH bandwagon, but all want to stink up the season and keep our 2019 pick. We need an identity - Hitch had one - d first, slow heavy game with puck control - but we really dont have the size up front to do that.

I do think there is a fair amount of chemistry - but coaches don't seem to see it. Schenn and Schwartz are good together and missing him has hurt both production.

ROR and Tank don't have a lot - Tank was producing as much with Schenn. ROR, Perron, and Sanford had great chemistry - why mess with that? It is silly to go away from a line that is working due to injury.

Did anyone see JE and VD taking a step back? I didn't, but should have for Dunn. But we need to see who they really are over the rest of the season.

I do think a small retool needs to happen - first one of Schwartz or Fabbri need to be traded. Mostly because they are both puck hounds, but also because of injuries. I don't think Steen is movable at this point. But after this season, he will only have 2 years left and may have interest.

I think we would be very much helped with a #4 steady LHD for Pie. This comes down to how does Mikkola develop.

As for the kids, leave them in the AHL. Let them develop at both ends of the ice.

Finally, I agree with the open goalie competition. JB is clearly outplaying Husso, so I would like to see him getting more games.

 

[BlueDream]

If players like Keith Tkachuk and Brett Hull and a long list of others choose to stay here, then that says something.

The players are fine here. We may not be the sexiest destination like Cali or Florida but we're no different than other cities like Buffalo, Carolina, Columbus, Detroit, Philadelphia, Winnipeg, etc. I wouldn't say any of those are any more ideal to play/live in than STL.

I believe Winnipeg was voted by the players as the city they hate visiting the most, probably because it's so cold. But that doesn't stop them from icing a good team.

Locker room issues just isn't the reason for this team's suckage.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I won't address the poll questions, its clear there needs to be some player trades to retool. But there are several high quality players on good contracts that you can build a winning team with. No reason to blow it all up.

But if you ARE going to retool, it would sure be nice to get the informed opinion of the head coach who is going to be tasked with building this roster into a team. However, I fear that isn't going to happen until the offseason. If they just appear to be sitting doing nothing this season, I'll take it as Armstrong actually negotiating in anticipation of the coming offseason. I will be surprised if he doesn't sell off rentals, though, and maybe Bozak for futures.

 

[ScratchCatFever]

There is a whole video on the Blues site about how much Tarasenko loves the city and calls it home. It could all be PR BS, but would they really choose someone who despises it here and wants out? Do you think Tarasenko's body language is due to the city taking a downturn the past two years or the team's play? Which is more likely, we are losing and Vladdy is struggling, so he seems dispirited on the ice? Or, Vladdy suddenly realized the city sucks and so he started slumping and the team went to hell?

Fair and likely to the par points. I think like many Blues fans I'm looking for reasons that may contribute to this teams struggles beyond the ice and was mainly speculating as to what that could be. Thanks for giving solid feedback rather than shut the F up feedback.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Fair and likely to the par points. I think like many Blues fans I'm looking for reasons that may contribute to this teams struggles beyond the ice and was mainly speculating as to what that could be. Thanks for giving solid feedback rather than shut the F up feedback.

Some of your posts are off the rails lately. Don't take that feedback personally. Many of us are just venting, and folks will vent right back at you. But sometimes it sounds like you're expecting a crack in the earth to open up and swallow the Enterprise center with the team on the ice practicing.

This is still just pissy frustration (by all of us). The only real tragedy would be something like Lokomitiv where the team is lost in an accident.

 

[ScratchCatFever]

Some of your posts are off the rails lately. Don't take that feedback personally. Many of us are just venting, and folks will vent right back at you. But sometimes it sounds like you're expecting a crack in the earth to open up and swallow the Enterprise center with the team on the ice practicing.

This is still just pissy frustration (by all of us). The only real tragedy would be something like Lokomitiv where the team is lost in an accident.

I agree. Reactions are sometimes taken to the extreme on this board (mine included) I guess it's to be expected after 27 years and in the case of many others far longer than that watching this team battle some kind of internal issue to find a recipe for finally getting this team over the hump. Naturally in the search for answers one may try and see things beyond what's happening on the ice that aren't truly there. Either way thanks for the positive/constructive feedback.

 

[GoldenSeal]

1. Fire Doug Armstrong

2. Hire a GM, Head Coach and replace the entire coaching staff. Look for candidates with a proven work effort that generates results. For a GM, I would consider targeting Dean Lombardi.

2a. Look at others in management for possible candidates to fill slots or at the very least get involved and give guidance to the team (Chopper, Hull, etc.)

3. Ascertain the morale of the team and individual players. Take aside players with issues and see if they have been or can be resolved after 2 and 2a happens. If it doesn't work, trade them, no matter who they are. Any player operating half-heartedly is going to hold the team back.

I'd start with that and see how it goes.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Here's my response to the question, "What to do?"

Well, college football season is pretty much over except the bowls. I was substituting that for hockey to some degree.
But instead, I'm spending more time with the family playing games and other outside activities.
I'm still monitoring the Blues' moves. But I don't feel like I have a dog in the fight any more. I hope they make good choices, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to anticipate them.
I do look forward to the draft regardless, because even if the 1st goes to Buffalo, Armstrong is likely to sell assets and get Bill Armstrong more picks to work with. I'm excited for what he's going to do.

 

[Majorityof1]

2a. Ask Brodeur if he would take over as Goaltending Coach for the rest of the season and maybe the next.

Brodeur is VP of Business Development for the Devils. He doesn't want to be a coach, never did. He also prefers NJ over here, as he left us to take that job. We can ask him to be goalie coach, but he would almost definitely say no.

 

[GoldenSeal]

Brodeur is VP of Business Development for the Devils. He doesn't want to be a coach, never did. He also prefers NJ over here, as he left us to take that job. We can ask him to be goalie coach, but he would almost definitely say no.

Damn, I didn't even realize that. Edited it out of my post. Good catch!

 

[Brian39]

As lame/boring as it sounds, I think the Blues should stand pat for a bit longer. I think any team deserves 30 games into the season before making franchise-altering moves and committing to a tank when expectations were to compete that season. I don't expect this team to turn it around and win enough games in the next 2 weeks to save itself, but it is possible and I don't see the rush to tear things down now instead of 2 weeks from now. Any trades for guys like Steen, Petro, Tarasenko, Schwartz, etc will still be there in a few weeks and guys sold as rentals will likely have more value at/near the deadline than they do today as teams have a little more cap flexibility.

Assuming they don't win 4 of their next 5 and keep themselves vaguely alive, then I'm in the retool camp.

I don't think Allen is our biggest problem, but we should be looking to upgrade him. He posted perfectly average numbers for the month of November (15th out of 31 goalies with 7+ games played in SV% with a .917) and the team still looks like a disaster. He went 4-5 in that stretch, which suggest that this team currently needs more than just average goaltending in order to turn it around. Goaltending is an area to address, but I don't think the solution is "anyone but Allen." I doubt that we will find a true upgrade mid-season as there aren't too many teams looking to move a decent goalie with term during the year. For this season, I'd waive Johnson and get Binny up here to give him a shot at the NHL. I don't think Johnson would get claimed, but having him mentor Husso in the AHL isn't a bad situation. If someone does claim him, fine. Getting his cap hit and salary off the books completely isn't a bad outcome either. Binny has earned an NHL look for a team in the gutter. He's outplaying Husso and is 25 years old. One of the few silver linings of being a dumpster fire is that it should allow us to see what this kid can do at the NHL level.

Other than that, I'm exploring trades for most the guys on the roster. My level of aggression/desire to move guys varies by player, but very few would be off limits. ROR is probably the only truly untouchable veteran in my head, but I would have to get an absurdly good offer to trade 91 or 27. Realistically, no one is going to offer what it will require for me to trade either of those guys. Schwartz is probably on that list as well.

Priorities over the next 9 months:
1: acquiring two 1st round picks out of the next 2 drafts (or more if we trade a true stud)

2: upgrading in net

3: clearing salary/cap both by saving real dollars this season and freeing up future room for extensions/trades/FAs. We probably aren't upgrading in net without spending notably more than the $6.1 mil we currently have tied up in the crease. We're either going to have to buy out/retain on Allen, take on a separate bad contract to move Allen or accept having Allen's cap hit as a 1B to a similarly paid 1A. Every cap dollar we spend in net needs to be accounted for by clearing space on the rest of the roster. Additionally, if we are going to be bad this year, the owners are going to take a financial hit. Offset that as much as possible this year to limit unwillingness to spend money next year.

4: See what we have in some youth. I don't want to rush Kyrou/Kostin if the organization doesn't think they are ready to handle the NHL. But I'm fine giving expanded NHL roles to Blais, Sanford, Barby, and Schmaltz to see how they handle bigger minutes/roles in lower stakes games. I'm also fine giving looks at Mikkola/Reinke/Walman and getting Binny some starts. I'm not saying flood the roster with prospects, but the final 45-50 games should see an increased emphasis in evaluating some younger talent that we are on the fence with.

Unnumbered: examine the front office and coaching staff. Without really knowing anything about the power dynamics between ownership/management/coaching, I really don't feel qualified to speculate on what should be changed, who needs to be replaced and/or who should be brought in. I also don;t think I have enough info to know where on my list of priorities this should fall. However, I think I have enough info to say that ownership needs to examine these areas. They have not gotten the expected results out of the money they have put into this roster and need to figure out why.

 

[DeuceNine]

my fellow blues fans what do you think they should do?

Rebuilding
This imo would be the obvious choice if we had our first for both this year and next, which even though we don’t I think with all the talent they could trade away we could salvage that one pick and get a pick high in the draft.

Retool
This would be kind of giving up on the season and shaking the core by up by trading on of the key guys. for the most part though stick with the roster we have for the future.

Try saving the season
This would most likely consist of trading for a Lhd and a goalie imo to try to save the season and hope to sneak into a playoff spot

Best option is to remove some cancerous bodies, yet continue to suck enough to earn a top 5 pick.

 

[Celtic Note]

Retool is the easy answer, but I also find it to be the correct answer. This ownership group likely needs us to stay competitive, so there is theoretically a business case for answering retool.

I also believe that given our status with the age of the core and the prospect pool, we are best off to retool.

What retooling means for our club is another matter. I have seen a lot of opinions here about simply moving out the core for a change of scenery, getting younger and/or getting faster. I don’t tend to agree with those as being the key motivating factors for retooling. They can and likely should play some role, but not be drivers.

My preference (as noted in the GM/Coach thread is to developed a balanced, intelligent and engaged team with quality at the forefront of our play. With that in mind, we need to assess the team though those principles.

Personally, I think we skewed too far in favor of “offense” at the expense of balance. Think about the players we brought in, had return and removed this offseason. Aside from ROR, all of the forwards are deficient defensively to varying degrees. But they also tend to be poor possession players, who also rely on skill over intelligence. It’s caused us to be careless with the puck, put greater strain on our defense due to reduced puck possession and elevated goals against because our new forwards lack smart and engaged defensive positioning. Some poeole won’t like hearing the emphasis on these areas because they will feel it is emblematic of our prior teams and flies in the face of the current NHL. But, notice I didn’t say we should reduce our offense to be better at possession and defense. I actually see opportunity for our offense to grow with improvements in decision making and positioning. Having more offensive zone time would reduce opportunities for defensive failure and provide the time needed for our offense to succeed.

Now what does this mean for personnel changes? I will have to get to them later. My commute is over, so time to work.

 

[Alklha]

Assuming we don't start a crazy run very soon, we need to commit to a retool early.

That starts with dumping Gunnarsson & Bouwmeester. Talk to Maroon, find out what his preferences are. Find out what Pietrangelo and Schenn are looking for on new deals in the summer and make decisions about them.

Try and move Steen & Bozak.

If we're open to moving Parayko, get those discussions started asap. That deal on the main boards that the Leafs fans were okay with was surprising (Zaitsev, Kapanen, Liljegren, Grundström & 1st)... I'd absolutley do that.

Waive Johnson and get Binnington in as backup and see what we have there. He might not be good enough, and in that case we know he can walk in the summer.

We can't wait and wait and wait, only to try and do everything in the summer. Allen isn't likely to go anywhere, but if we do the other work then we can hopefully address the goaltending in the summer.

As for the coaching, I still think that we need to be focused on getting someone in over the next month or so. Armstrong is the one in charge of building the roster, but we need the new coach to come in and evaluate from his perspective. If people are arguing that this group is weak, then Armstrong is blind to it.

 

[maskingagent]

I agree with a lot that has been said. I thought the Blues were a cup contender when they had the likes of Backes, Steen, Pietrangelo, Shattenkirk, Tj Oshie, Tarasenko, with I think Allen and Elliot ? I believe they were under Hitch at this point ? I could not believe that this "juggernaut" of a team could not do it. So is this just how things are in the cap era now ? A team like St. Louis goes through 5-6 years of being a top contender, and then dissolves into an "also ran" due to cap issues ?

 

[trevorftw]

Watching some Jack Hughes highlight videos. He looks really good.