What is your best All-Time team?

[Elvis P]

C Gary Carter, Johnny Bench
1B Lou Gehrig, Albert Pujols
2B Rogers Hornsby, Eddie Collins
3B Mike Schmidt, Wade Boggs
SS Honus Wagner, A-Rod
LF Ted Williams, Rickey Henderson
CF Willie Mays, Ty Cobb
RF Babe Ruth, Stan Musial
DH Edgar Martinez

SP Walter Johnson, Cy Young, John Clarkson, Kid Nichols, Christy Mathewson
RP Goose Gossage, Mariano Rivera, Hoyt Wilhelm

Click to read more...

 

[Cas]

C - Josh Gibson, Johnny Bench
1B - Lou Gehrig, Albert Pujols
2B - Rogers Hornsby, Eddie Collins
3B - Mike Schmidt. Wade Boggs
SS - Honus Wagner, Alex Rodriguez
LF - Barry Bonds, Stan Musial
CF - Willie Mays, Ty Cobb
RF - Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron
DH - Ted Williams

SP - Walter Johnson, Roger Clemens, Cy Young, Pete Alexander, Greg Maddux
RP - Goose Gossage, Mariano Rivera, Hoyt Wilhelm

...

At this point, the DH is as much a part of baseball as anything else, so I'm including it. Bonds would rate above Williams in any case.

That's a 25-man roster. I can think of different ways to build a roster, but one starter and one backup, plus a full rotation and three-man bullpen is usually how I go about these exercises.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

C - carlton fisk, Johnny Bench
1B - miguel cabrera, Albert Pujols
2B - ryne sandberg, joe morgan
3B - Mike Schmidt. chipper jones
SS - derek jeter, Alex Rodriguez
LF - Barry Bonds, Stan Musial
CF - Willie Mays, rickey henderson
RF - tony gwynn, Hank Aaron
DH - Ted Williams

SP - randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, justin verlander, nolan ryan, Greg Maddux
RP - billy wagner, Mariano Rivera, Dennis Eckersley

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

C - Carlton Fisk, Johnny Bench
1B - Lou Gehrig, Miguel Cabrera
2B - Roberto Alomar, Rod Carew
3B - Chipper Jones, George Brett
SS - A-Rod, Ozzie Smith
LF - Ted Williams, Barry Bonds
CF - Willie Mays, Ken Griffey Jr
RF - Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron
DH - David Ortiz, Mickey Mantle

SP - Pedro Martinez, Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens, Bob Gibson, Cy Young
RP - Mo Rivera, Dennis Eckersley, John Smoltz

 

[DaaaaB's]

C - Josh Gibson, Johnny Bench
1B - Lou Gehrig, Albert Pujols
2B - Rogers Hornsby, Eddie Collins
3B - Mike Schmidt, Adrian Beltre
SS - Honus Wagner, Alex Rodriguez
LF - Barry Bonds, Stan Musial
CF - Willie Mays, Ty Cobb
RF - Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron
DH - Ted Williams

SP - Walter Johnson, Roger Clemens, Cy Young, Pete Alexander, Lefty Grove

RP - Mariano Rivera, Hoyt Wilhelm, Dennis Eckersley

 

[Voight]

C - Johnny Bench, Pudge Rodriguez
1B - Lou Gehrig, Albert Pujols
2B - Roberto Alomar, Joe Morgan
3B - Alex Rodriguez, Brooks Robinson
SS - Derek Jeter, Ozzie Smith
LF - Barry Bonds, Stan Musial
CF - Willie Mays, Ken Griffey Jr
RF - Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron
DH - Frank Robinson

SP - Randy Johnson, Tom Seaver, Roger Clemens, Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan
RP - Mo Rivera, Dennis Eckersley, John Smoltz

 

[Blitzkrug]

C - Mike Piazza/Ivan Rodriguez
1B - Lou Gerhig/Albert Pujols
2B - Roberto Alomar/Joe Morgan
3B - George Brett/Chipper Jones
SS - Ozzie Smith/Cal Ripken Jr
LF - Barry Bonds/Ted Williams
CF - Ken Griffey Jr/Willie Mays
RF - Babe Ruth/Hank Aaron
DH - David Ortiz

Pitching rotation: Randy Johnson, Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Pedro Martinez, Greg Maddux
Relievers: Mariano Rivera, Dennis Eckersley, Rollie Fingers

Couple things

the DH pick is going to make some people raise eyebrows but i put guys in slots depending on how much time they actually spent at the position just to make it easier to figure out. Because depending on how you view this you could go full MLB the Show and do weird shit like have Pujols play 3rd or Hank Aaron at 1st since they played games there. I chose to go with (as i assume most here did) the position they played the most at. So while there's technically much better options at DH given how the position works, Ortiz wins out based on the logic i used.

Griffey starting over Mays is a pure homer pick given Junior was my favorite player growing up.

 

[Elvis P]

Eddie Mathews	Career	Wade Boggs

72	Triples	61
512	Home Runs	118
1,453	Runs Batted In	1,014
68	Stolen Bases	24

1,444

Walks

1,412

.509	Slugging Percentage	.443
0.885	OPS	0.858
4,349	Total Bases	4,064

26

Hit by Pitch

23

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Eddie Mathews	Career	Wade Boggs

72	Triples	61
512	Home Runs	118
1,453	Runs Batted In	1,014
68	Stolen Bases	24

1,444

Walks

1,412

.509	Slugging Percentage	.443
0.885	OPS	0.858
4,349	Total Bases	4,064

26

Hit by Pitch

23

Yes, a power hitter has better power numbers than a contact hitter. You left out:

	Mathews	Boggs
Hits	2,315	3,010
Average	.271	.328
Silver Sluggers	0	8
Batting Titles	0	5
OBP	.376	.415
Strike Outs	1,487	745

 

[Elvis P]

Yes, a power hitter has better power numbers than a contact hitter. You left out:

You're not a BoSox fan.

 

[DaaaaB's]

You're not a BoSox fan.

I think Matthews is ahead of Boggs but he makes a good point that you left out some key stats to help your argument.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

You're not a BoSox fan.

Ok, doesn't change that you cherry picked stats that Mathews excelled in and omitted all stats that Boggs excelled in to intentionally be disingenuous in comparing the two.

I may be a Red Sox fan but I can tell you that Mathews isn't even the best Braves 3B of all time (Chipper)

 

[Cas]

Ok, doesn't change that you cherry picked stats that Mathews excelled in and omitted all stats that Boggs excelled in to intentionally be disingenuous in comparing the two.

I may be a Red Sox fan but I can tell you that Mathews isn't even the best Braves 3B of all time (Chipper)

I have Mathews ahead of Jones and I don't think that's an especially controversial take, honestly.

I have Boggs just a little ahead of Mathews thanks to peak, which is mostly driven by defense in Boggs' favor. It's pretty close, though.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

2: Josh Gibson, Johnny Bench
3: Iron Horse, Double-X
4: Joe Morgan, Eddie Collins
5. Mike Schmidt, Eddie Mathews
6: Honus Wagner, A-Roid (faute de mieux)

7: R. Henderson, Stan the Man
8: Say-Hey Kid, Oscar Charleston
8/9: Georgia Peach
9: Bambino

DH: Splendid Splinter

SP: Big Train, Lefty Grove, Pete Alexander, Cy Young, Satchel Paige
Relief: Mariano, Eck & Billy Wagner, I guess...

Quick thoughts- although power-hitting in as many positions as possible is more prevalent than ever, 19 of the last 20 top-RBI seasons were 85 or more years ago. Why? The art of table-setting seems to have been lost. A lineup with Rickey, Joe Morgan, and Honus Wagner? That's a line-up that can table-set!

Inclusion of Joe Morgan over Rogers Hornsby figures to be questioned.... but below-average fielding in the middle of the diamond is pretty much a non-negotiable for me. Also, Hornsby's a Prik of the Highest Order. [Cobb has a reputation for being a POTHO, too (although Leerhsen's biography goes a long way in dispelling some of the more egregious distortions)-- but Cobb could at least field his position.]

Hans & George Herman start every game unless sick, injured, visibly fatigued, or (in the case of the latter) AWOL.

Hank Aaron's GIDP numbers are kind of frightening. I'd rather have Charleston.

 

[DaaaaB's]

I have Mathews ahead of Jones and I don't think that's an especially controversial take, honestly.

I have Boggs just a little ahead of Mathews thanks to peak, which is mostly driven by defense in Boggs' favor. It's pretty close, though.

I don't know my history/stats as well as you but it seems like Beltre should at least be in the conversation for second best 3rd baseman of all time. I'm basing that off him being better defensively than the others(Matthews, Boggs, Brett, Chipper,) while still having excellent offensive numbers. I think Brooks Robinson was better defensively but his hitting numbers are lower. I'm curious how you would rank those guys?

 

[Elvis P]

... Hank Aaron's GIDP numbers are kind of frightening. I'd rather have Charleston.

Hank has the most RBIs and total bases ever. He's by far the second best RFer ever.

 

[Cas]

Hank Aaron's GIDP numbers are kind of frightening. I'd rather have Charleston.

Aaron grounded into lots of double plays because he played forever and was a consistent middle of the order hitter who didn't strike out. You actually want bad GIDP numbers, look at Jim Rice. Aaron cost his teams maybe half a run per season with ground balls in DP situations - that's it.

Preferring Charleston to Aaron is entirely defensible, mind, but it's not because of his GIDP figures.

I don't know my history/stats as well as you but it seems like Beltre should at least be in the conversation for second best 3rd baseman of all time. I'm basing that off him being better defensively than the others(Matthews, Boggs, Brett, Chipper,) while still having excellent offensive numbers. I think Brooks Robinson was better defensively but his hitting numbers are lower. I'm curious how you would rank those guys?

I have Schmidt at an unassailable #1 - that's not especially controversial.

The next bunch is close enough that methodological differences can justifiably reshuffle the entire group, but I have them as Boggs, Brett, Mathews, Beltre, and Santo.

Brooks Robinson follows, but the difference between him and Santo is roughly the same as the distance between Boggs and Santo. Chipper Jones is close behind Robinson, then another drop before we get to Jud Wilson, Scott Rolen, Ken Boyer, Graig Nettles, Buddy Bell, Dick Allen, Sal Bando, and Frank Baker. A group of recent guys follows - Longoria, Arenado, Machado, big gap, Wright, Donaldson, and Darrell Evans.

Third base is a historic transitional position, so I frankly think it's underrepresented status in the HOF is entirely justified. It's just representing the wrong people - I'd dump Kell, Lindstrom, Traynor, and Judy Johnson in favor of Boyer, Nettles, Allen, Bell, and Bando.

 

[DaaaaB's]

Aaron grounded into lots of double plays because he played forever and was a consistent middle of the order hitter who didn't strike out. You actually want bad GIDP numbers, look at Jim Rice. Aaron cost his teams maybe half a run per season with ground balls in DP situations - that's it.

Preferring Charleston to Aaron is entirely defensible, mind, but it's not because of his GIDP figures.



I have Schmidt at an unassailable #1 - that's not especially controversial.

The next bunch is close enough that methodological differences can justifiably reshuffle the entire group, but I have them as Boggs, Brett, Mathews, Beltre, and Santo.

Brooks Robinson follows, but the difference between him and Santo is roughly the same as the distance between Boggs and Santo. Chipper Jones is close behind Robinson, then another drop before we get to Jud Wilson, Scott Rolen, Ken Boyer, Graig Nettles, Buddy Bell, Dick Allen, Sal Bando, and Frank Baker. A group of recent guys follows - Longoria, Arenado, Machado, big gap, Wright, Donaldson, and Darrell Evans.

Third base is a historic transitional position, so I frankly think it's underrepresented status in the HOF is entirely justified. It's just representing the wrong people - I'd dump Kell, Lindstrom, Traynor, and Judy Johnson in favor of Boyer, Nettles, Allen, Bell, and Bando.

Interesting, thanks for the reply. I was also curious how the newer guys compared so you answered that. And yeah, I don't think I've ever seen anyone other than Schmidt ranked #1.

 

[Elvis P]

Hank has the most RBIs and total bases ever. He's by far the second best RFer ever.

Charleston has 1210 hits and 143 homers. He's obviously not in the same universe as Hank Aaron.

 

[Cas]

Charleston has 1210 hits and 143 homers. He's obviously not in the same universe as Hank Aaron.

That's also hyperbole, because those records don't include large chunks of Charleston's career (1915-1919, 1928, 1930-1932, plus all of his Cuban League stats), and because the teams Charleston played for simply didn't play 154 league games per year - they probably played for half that.

What we can see is that Charleston played at least 1500 games for which we have reliable statistics, in a 27-year career, in which he picked up close to 2000 hits and 200 home runs, with batting averages in the .360-.380 region and lots of stolen bases, triples, walks, etc, playing primarily center field before moving to first base in a league where that was still a premium defensive position.

When you account for the overall lesser quality of competition (the stars were just as good as the white major leagues, but the depth players generally were not), the additional barriers placed on Charleston and his peers (having to play in Cuba over the winter to make ends meet, constant barnstorming, the unceasing toll of racism, etc), and the significantly shorter official seasons, Charleston probably had a career as bulky as Pete Rose, but with the offense of Tris Speaker. In a fully integrated league, Charleston probably reaches 3500 hits, 400+ home runs, bats .330+, wins a couple of MVPs - essentially a slightly lesser Rogers Hornsby as a hitter, in a longer career, with better defense.

Yes, he's in the same universe as Hank Aaron.

 

[Elvis P]

Shoulda, coulda, woulda. Pure speculation on your part. Charleston played in leagues with less depth and shorter fences. Hank also dealt with racism, drove in the most runs ever, and moved the most runners around the bases ever. No serious historian considers them equals.

 

[Elvis P]

Besting Ruth, beating hate: How Hank Aaron made baseball history

Despite great personal risk, Hank Aaron made sports history on April 8, 1974 when he broke Babe Ruth's total home run record. CNN takes a behind the scenes look at how this sports legend was made.

www.cnn.com

Hank Aaron received thousands of death threats while he was chasing Babe Ruth's HR record.

 

[Cas]

No serious historian considers them equals.

I know for a fact that's not true - every serious baseball historian considers them in the same range - but you make your pronouncement.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

You actually want bad GIDP numbers, look at Jim Rice.

Preferring Charleston to Aaron is entirely defensible, mind, but it's not because of his GIDP figures.

Yeah- the Rice mention is a good point. The fact that the third best BoSox Outfielder of the second half of the 70s/early 80s is in the HoF- and the other two aren't- is up there with the Baines induction in the "sick joke" category. [Honestly, though, Lynn wouldn't be a particularly strong induction- but Dwight Evans would be.]

]I know for a fact that's not true - every serious baseball historian considers them in the same range - but you make your pronouncement.

Many people with access to both sides of the color-barrier looking glass asserted Charleston was the best player they ever saw- including most notably John McGraw.

 

[RR44]

I'll use who I have seen TV or live:

C Ivan Rodriguez
1B Keith Hernandez
2B Roberto Alomar
3B Mike Schmidt
SS Omar Vizquel
LF Barry Bonds
CF Devon White/Jim Edmonds
RF Larry Walker
DH Edgar Martinez

SP Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens, Roy Halliday, Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine
RP Mike Timlin, Tom Henke, Norm Charlton, Mariano Rivera