What does Lidstrom have to do to be considered better than Bourque?

[steve141]

Breaking in a rookie and having to cover his mistakes is somewhat different and harder. Lidstrom elevating his defensive partners play? Based on this season's play? Lidstrom is the only regular Red Wing d-man with a - +/-. This would suggest a review of his play this season is in order.

There's a guy that is doing exactly that. He is reviewing each Red Wings game and adjusting the stats according to who was actually involved in the plays that caused goals forwards or backwards. That means that a defenceman that takes out his man doesn't get a minus if the other defenceman and the goalie screw up. And you don't get a plus if you are just coming off the bench. Yes it is subjective, but should be a much better basis for comparison between team mates than raw +/-. Outside of the Red Wings organisation there's probably noone who has watched as much Red Wings video as this guy has this year.

Lidstrom's adjusted number for this year is +32, more than double that of any other defenceman on the team.

Here's the link: http://www.wingingitinmotown.com/2010/12/9/1866269/cssi-tracking-post

There's also a post on each game, detailing his explanation for adjustments on every single play.


In general I agree with you that this is not Lidstrom's best year, but there is no way he isn't still by far the best defenceman on his team.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Getting Somewhere

There's a guy that is doing exactly that. He is reviewing each Red Wings game and adjusting the stats according to who was actually involved in the plays that caused goals forwards or backwards. That means that a defenceman that takes out his man doesn't get a minus if the other defenceman and the goalie screw up. And you don't get a plus if you are just coming off the bench. Yes it is subjective, but should be a much better basis for comparison between team mates than raw +/-. Outside of the Red Wings organisation there's probably noone who has watched as much Red Wings video as this guy has this year.

Lidstrom's adjusted number for this year is +32, more than double that of any other defenceman on the team.

Here's the link: http://www.wingingitinmotown.com/2010/12/9/1866269/cssi-tracking-post

There's also a post on each game, detailing his explanation for adjustments on every single play.


In general I agree with you that this is not Lidstrom's best year, but there is no way he isn't still by far the best defenceman on his team.

Now we are getting somewhere. The linked data is interesting BUT is it objective and it leaves certain issues unanswered.

Each NHL team keeps its own internal stats and evaluations. players are graded on every shift, etc. The basic problem with the linked data is that it does not take into account what each players responsibilities and objectives were on every shift. The internal team stats do.

What is telling about Lidstrom is that his TOI is down app 5 minutes per game from his heyday, meaning that he is not used as often as before. Given the lack of love that the other Red Wing d-men are getting in this thread this is surprising. Obviously the coaches do not share the fan sentiments.

 

[danincanada]

What is telling about Lidstrom is that his TOI is down app 5 minutes per game from his heyday, meaning that he is not used as often as before. Given the lack of love that the other Red Wing d-men are getting in this thread this is surprising. Obviously the coaches do not share the fan sentiments.

At the start of the season Babcock stated many times that he wants to keep Lidstrom's ice-time down so he can be fresh for the playoffs. The guy is 40 so of course they're not going to play him 30 minutes a game anymore. It really has nothing to do with Nick not being more valuable than the other defenseman on the team though because he certainly is.

In fact, Babcock was happy Salei was signed because then he had 6 dman at his disposal who could play 20 minutes a game if needed. This was supposed to keep everyone fresh and allow the offensive defenseman to focus more on offense. The problem was that Rafalski was injured at the start of the season and now Stuart is out too.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Hmmm, let's see. The only other Bruin than Bourque doing any significant scoring damage gets taken out when they are up 2 games to none. Their best forward Pker and checking forward Poulin pulls his groin and is out. Ken Hodge Jr(4th in team scoring) is out with a separated shoulder. Half the team has the flu, including Moog. And Milbury deciding that revenge is more important than winning by inserting goons into the lineup

Yes, let's blame it all on Bourque. Any team can recover from all of that.

Let's all polish a crock until it shines like gold while we are at it.

Canadiens1958 already explained the May goal and how Bourque was forced to cover for his defensive partners lapse. Feel free to post these other clips for us to judge.

I don't remember the goal, but I suppose you will want to ignore the fact that he missed the end of the 94 regular season with a bad knee injury and was playing very hobbled.

Bourque gets toasted, takes a penalty and Lindsay still scores


Look at 0:24 and freeze it. May is Bourques man at the red line. Sweeney correctly has Lafontaine along the boards. As Lafontaine is falling, May cuts towards the boards as Sweeney correctly steps up to stop May at the line, but at 0:27 Bourque is too slow to catch up to May, and Lafontaine and May 2-on-1 Sweeney. Even though May blows by Sweeney (Bourques man), Bourque has the angle and position on May, but Bourque plays the puck and not the man (0:30) , May fakes Bourque out of his jock, goes in alone -- have a nice Summer.

HOCKEY / THE BRUINS Series tied after Richer's OT goal
[03 Edition]

Boston Herald - Boston, Mass.
Author: Stephen Harris
Date: May 8, 1994
Start Page: 001
Section: SPORTS

Stephane Richer still had to skate nearly 100 feet and put the puck in the net before the game would end, but this part was a mere formality; the Bruins were, for all intents and purposes, very suddenly dead a split-second after the linesman dropped the puck between Adam Oates and Bobby Holik.

Led by Glen Murray, who scored two goals (Nos. 3 & 4) as the new right winger on the top line with Oates (three assists) and Brent Hughes (2), the Bruins twice took the lead in this one and forced the Devils out of their sluggish back-up-and-wait team defense.

At the drop of the puck, Richer took off at high speed toward the B's end; NJ center Holik jammed the faceoff straight ahead, batting the puck forward, cleanly between B's blueliners [Ray Bourque] and Don Sweeney, who were on for the final three NJ goals, all even-strength.

The Bruins were up 2-1 in that series and took a 3-2 lead into the third. They would later lead 4-3 midway through the third. Injury or no injury, it's no excuse. Bourque knee looked great in the Canadiens series, and the Bruins were dominating overtime in Game 4 against the Devils. It was a neutral zone faceoff that Oates got beat on, and Bourque was too slow to catch Richer blowing through the zone.

I cant find the video but NHL Network has shown the series in each of the last three summers on "Classic Series". Stay tuned.



As for 1995, there's no need to post any video. Bourque was a -3 in each of the first two games. No points and a -6. Lemme guess -- the Devils were a Dynasty too

 

[Canadiens1958]

Misdirect

At the start of the season Babcock stated many times that he wants to keep Lidstrom's ice-time down so he can be fresh for the playoffs. The guy is 40 so of course they're not going to play him 30 minutes a game anymore. It really has nothing to do with Nick not being more valuable than the other defenseman on the team though because he certainly is.

In fact, Babcock was happy Salei was signed because then he had 6 dman at his disposal who could play 20 minutes a game if needed. This was supposed to keep everyone fresh and allow the offensive defenseman to focus more on offense. The problem was that Rafalski was injured at the start of the season and now Stuart is out too.

........... and coaches never try to misdirect the opposition.

Bourque at 40 was playing over 26 minutes a game, finished +25 and app.0.75PPG.

Spin the numbers anyway you want, throw in some misdirects but you are still trying to dress-up an aging player.

 

[danincanada]

........... and coaches never try to misdirect the opposition.

Bourque at 40 was playing over 26 minutes a game, finished +25 and app.0.75PPG.

Spin the numbers anyway you want, throw in some misdirects but you are still trying to dress-up an aging player.

Misdirecting the opposition? What are you talking about?? This was Babcock's plan and why would telling people he's going to try to have 3 strong groups of dmen pairings and lie about be some sort of tactic to fool the opposition? Babcock shoots from the hip more than any coach I've ever heard. He says it like it is and this was no different.

You are constantly looking to bring down Lidstrom by pulling things out of the air but most of them just show me that you don't watch him very much or know what the Red Wings are trying to accomplish.

 

[Reds4Life]

........... and coaches never try to misdirect the opposition.

Bourque at 40 was playing over 26 minutes a game, finished +25 and app.0.75PPG.

Spin the numbers anyway you want, throw in some misdirects but you are still trying to dress-up an aging player.

And I am sure Bourque, just like Lidstrom, played 13 playoff series at the age of 37-40.

 

[Briere Up There*]

Why is he trying to bring down Lidstrom? He's just making the point (and I agree with him) that Lidstrom's play has deteriorated. He's not the same guy he was 5 years ago. He's not blowing anyone away with his defensive prowess. What's keeping him in the Norris discussion is his offense which is still excellent.

And so is his defense, but he's probably not the best defensive defenseman in the league anymore.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

Why is he trying to bring down Lidstrom? He's just making the point (and I agree with him) that Lidstrom's play has deteriorated. He's not the same guy he was 5 years ago. He's not blowing anyone away with his defensive prowess. What's keeping him in the Norris discussion is his offense which is still excellent.

And so is his defense, but he's probably not the best defensive defenseman in the league anymore.

A slightly down Lidstrom is defensively better than players 20 years his junior. That really doesn't say too much for today's defensemen!

 

[danincanada]

Why is he trying to bring down Lidstrom? He's just making the point (and I agree with him) that Lidstrom's play has deteriorated. He's not the same guy he was 5 years ago. He's not blowing anyone away with his defensive prowess. What's keeping him in the Norris discussion is his offense which is still excellent.

And so is his defense, but he's probably not the best defensive defenseman in the league anymore.

He's not just saying Lidstrom's play has deteriorated, he's saying the coaches are playing him less because his value has dropped to the team. This simply isn't the case. Babcock realizes he's 40 of course but Lidstrom is still by far the best defenseman on his team and plays in all the key situations.

Of course a 40 year old Lidstrom is not as good as a prime Lidstrom. The dropoff hasn't been huge though.

His defensive game is still second to none IMO. You have to watch him to appreciate it though and can't just depend on half a seasons +/- rating. He still picks off passes, stick checks guys as they try to enter the zone putting them offside, and very very rarely gets beat 1 on 1. And he's still matched up against the others teams best every game. That's the real testament to how the coaching staff feels about his play.

 

[jkrx]

Granted we are talking careers but the thread was raised because of the perception that somehow Lidstrom can accomplish further greatness on defense as evidenced by his play so far this season which many claim has him on a Norris Trophy path.

Well the evidence seems to show the following. Nicklas Lidstrom is still leading the NHL d-men in scoring - ahead of Dustin Byfuglien who is not a Norris threat. Defensively he is around 20th amongst NHL d-men in TOI, and well below 25th in terms of +/-. A high risk rookie d-man like P.K. Subban has a better +/- while playing app 2 minutes less a game.Regardless how you spin it this is well below Lidstrom's career norms and not exactly Norris Trophy material.

Did you just compare Lidtröm with Subban? Subban in +/- 0 and Lidström is -3 after a blow out game in Pittsburgh where both starters plus the teams best defensive forward, Datsyuk aswell as Stuart were out. Not to mention Cleary and Holmström. Subban is also a 3rd or 4th D on the Habs since they brought in Wisniewski, not really comparable in my opinion. High risk defensemen Green also have a better +/-, has he been better (defensively) than Lidström this season?

 

[Rhiessan71]

Wow...almost 3 pages of arguing over ONE PLAY.
Lets post ONE PLAY of Lidstrom getting burned and do the same hahaha.

Who cares if Bourque got burned more than Lidstrom, it was Bourque's friggin job to push the offense and take chances.

Taking away from Bourque's defense because he was doing his job and doing what his team REQUIRED and ASKED him to do is ridiculous.

The real point here is that Bourque was still able to play as well defensively as he did despite being required to push and take chances.
Considering Bourque didn't have a single minus season until he was 37, his 18th season in the league, it's pretty obvious that he didn't get burned very often despite having to take more chances than most others.
Out of all the offensive d-men in the league like Coffey, Housley and MacInnis, Bourque got burned far, far less than any of them and was pretty much the only one of them that also got highly praised for his defense.

This point is further punctuated by Bourque's play in his International appearances.
When playing in those Canada Cup's he was not pushing the play any where near what he did with the Bruins. He was patient, made higher percentage plays and played solid defense.
Why....because just like Lidstrom with the Wings, he knew he actually had help and wasn't relied on to do it all like he did with the Bruins.

 

[seventieslord]

Granted we are talking careers but the thread was raised because of the perception that somehow Lidstrom can accomplish further greatness on defense as evidenced by his play so far this season which many claim has him on a Norris Trophy path.

Well the evidence seems to show the following. Nicklas Lidstrom is still leading the NHL d-men in scoring - ahead of Dustin Byfuglien who is not a Norris threat. Defensively he is around 20th amongst NHL d-men in TOI, and well below 25th in terms of +/-. A high risk rookie d-man like P.K. Subban has a better +/- while playing app 2 minutes less a game.Regardless how you spin it this is well below Lidstrom's career norms and not exactly Norris Trophy material.

Does Subban play against the opposition's best every shift? Lidstrom does.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Does Subban play against the opposition's best every shift? Lidstrom does.

Not usually when Gill and Gorges have been healthy and he was paired with Picard, no.
When Markov came back briefly, PK and him were doing this and now that Gorges is gone for the season, PK has been paired with Gill and they are seeing the other teams top line, yes.

Not enough to justify the point vs Lidstrom though.

 

[Roy S]

That "much weaker defensive team" boasted Selke Winner and Hart Finalist Datsyuk, Selke Candidate(4th) Zetterberg, and Norris 9th place Rafalski. Hossa, 13th in Selke Voting

I couldn't care less what the voting results were for the Selke or Norris. The Wings were a much weaker defensive team (including the play of the goalies) b/c they were tied for 19th in goals against and Boston was 1st. And, Lidstrom still allowed less goals against than Chara.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Comparisons

Did you just compare Lidtröm with Subban? Subban in +/- 0 and Lidström is -3 after a blow out game in Pittsburgh where both starters plus the teams best defensive forward, Datsyuk aswell as Stuart were out. Not to mention Cleary and Holmström. Subban is also a 3rd or 4th D on the Habs since they brought in Wisniewski, not really comparable in my opinion. High risk defensemen Green also have a better +/-, has he been better (defensively) than Lidström this season?

Not to mention that Crosby was out for Pittsburgh. Minor detail that was conveniently overlooked.

Since the lock-out Red Wings Goals Against vs the league:

2nd/3rd/1st/19th/8th/18th - so far this season.

Regardless of how you spin things the vaunted Red Wing defense has slipped dramatically the last two and a half season. What the rest of the league is doing is somewhat irrelevent to what is happening on the Red Wing defense. All that really matters is that so far this year without a Nicklas Lidstrom playing on defense, 17 teams are better defensively against roughly the same opposition.
Obviously the Red Wings are not so horrific defensively during the 36+ minutes that Lidstrom does not play per game to explain the drop from top three to 18th.

All great players reach the end of the line. Presently it is happening with Lidstrom. True - some of the old skills still exist but basically he is getting by on experience and is generating more offense which compensates for his diminishing defense - on a pace to reach his second highest seasonal point total.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Who cares if Bourque got burned more than Lidstrom, it was Bourque's friggin job to push the offense and take chances.

Exactly right.

Taking away from Bourque's defense because he was doing his job and doing what his team REQUIRED and ASKED him to do is ridiculous.

No one is taking anything away from Bourque. (at least not me)

It is just a fact that he had to take more risks and when you do you sometimes get burned. That's it.

The difference is that you actually acknowledge the reasoning behind this, whereas DarkShadows seems to think Bourque was an infallible superhuman, in spite of pretty stark evidence that even Bourque got caught sometimes because of his offensive responsibility for the Bruins.

Lidstrom with the Wings, he knew he actually had help and wasn't relied on to do it all like he did with the Bruins.

Right again, and because Lidstrom's main role is weighted more towards defense than offense we see the result in his offensive numbers as well as in how few mistakes he makes defensively.

Its no slight against either of them, just a fact. At least in part due to the roles they were employed with on their teams (either by necessity or to make the most of their individual strengths).

 

[jkrx]

Not to mention that Crosby was out for Pittsburgh. Minor detail that was conveniently overlooked.

Since the lock-out Red Wings Goals Against vs the league:

2nd/3rd/1st/19th/8th/18th - so far this season.

Regardless of how you spin things the vaunted Red Wing defense has slipped dramatically the last two and a half season. What the rest of the league is doing is somewhat irrelevent to what is happening on the Red Wing defense. All that really matters is that so far this year without a Nicklas Lidstrom playing on defense, 17 teams are better defensively against roughly the same opposition.
Obviously the Red Wings are not so horrific defensively during the 36+ minutes that Lidstrom does not play per game to explain the drop from top three to 18th.

All great players reach the end of the line. Presently it is happening with Lidstrom. True - some of the old skills still exist but basically he is getting by on experience and is generating more offense which compensates for his diminishing defense - on a pace to reach his second highest seasonal point total.

Pittsburgh not having Crosby is like Detroit not having Datsyuk but a team without their two top goalies is usually not a great team. Lidströms defense hasn't really slowed down. Obviously its not as it was in his prime but he defenitly not anywhere near a liability.

Like another poster already mentioned. Goals against when Lidström was on the ice is usually others slipping up not Lidström. I dont think I've seen him slip all season. One of his GA (against Pens) was an open netter and another was a give away by Kronwall for example. Versus Colombus he was on a GA on a backboard bounce which Voracek managed to get in. Versus the avs he was in on a Kronner give away again then Kronwall makes a neutral zone hit and puck slips by to Dushesne (I believe) who shoots it past Lidstrom and Howard doesnt make the save.

Thats five of his -, do I really need to go on?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Realistically...............

Does Subban play against the opposition's best every shift? Lidstrom does.

How Subban is used has been answered by another poster.

Realistically................Lidstrom and other top defensemen do not play against the opposition's best every shift especially on the road where the home team has the last change.So lets temper the false praise that is not earned. Any coach worth his salary can juggle the lines to keep his star players away from a dominating defensemen. That the coaches are NOW playing their top lines against Lidstrom is another matter - shows that his skills are slowly fading.

Whether there are 30 true number one lines in the NHL is another issue altogether.

Regardless, the Canadiens are 4th in GA - despite losing Markov for most of the season and now Gorges, while the Red Wings are 18th in GA this season.The numbers are rather revealing

 

[jkrx]

How Subban is used has been answered by another poster.

Realistically................Lidstrom and other top defensemen do not play against the opposition's best every shift especially on the road where the home team has the last change.So lets temper the false praise that is not earned. Any coach worth his salary can juggle the lines to keep his star players away from a dominating defensemen. That the coaches are NOW playing their top lines against Lidstrom is another matter - shows that his skills are slowly fading.

Whether there are 30 true number one lines in the NHL is another issue altogether.

Regardless, the Canadiens are 4th in GA - despite losing Markov for most of the season and now Gorges, while the Red Wings are 18th in GA this season.The numbers are rather revealing

Habs are 5th in GA/G and 26th in GF/G
Wings are 19th in GA/G and 2nd in GF/G

Seems more to me that its difference in system not a decline of Lidströms defensive abilities.

I can also add:

Carey Price 2.34 .921

Jimmy Howard 2.83 .906
Chris Osgood 2.77 .903

 

[Reds4Life]

How Subban is used has been answered by another poster.

Realistically................Lidstrom and other top defensemen do not play against the opposition's best every shift especially on the road where the home team has the last change.So lets temper the false praise that is not earned. Any coach worth his salary can juggle the lines to keep his star players away from a dominating defensemen. That the coaches are NOW playing their top lines against Lidstrom is another matter - shows that his skills are slowly fading.

Whether there are 30 true number one lines in the NHL is another issue altogether.

Regardless, the Canadiens are 4th in GA - despite losing Markov for most of the season and now Gorges, while the Red Wings are 18th in GA this season.The numbers are rather revealing

5 games back, Lidstrom was +3. Does that mean that his skills faded away in these 5 games, or was he just unlucky? Anyone who watched those games knows the truth. Babcock plays hims against the best opposing players as much as he can, because Lidstrom is still by far the best defenseman Wings have. Your continuous attempts to belittle Lidstrom are ridiculous.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Are we really debating unadjusted plus-minus totals on the History forum?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Flow of the Season

5 games back, Lidstrom was +3. Does that mean that his skills faded away in these 5 games, or was he just unlucky? Anyone who watched those games knows the truth. Babcock plays hims against the best opposing players as much as he can, because Lidstrom is still by far the best defenseman Wings have. Your continuous attempts to belittle Lidstrom are ridiculous.

Just the ups and downs that occur during the season plus the Datsyuk factor catching up to the Wings.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

........... and coaches never try to misdirect the opposition.

Bourque at 40 was playing over 26 minutes a game, finished +25 and app.0.75PPG.

Spin the numbers anyway you want, throw in some misdirects but you are still trying to dress-up an aging player.

What about the age 35-39 seasons when Lidstrom was clearly better?

Bourque had a season+ rebirth moving from a struggling Boston team to a powerhouse Avs team. I think even Bourque supporters generally acknowledge that Lidstrom has been a bit better after the age of 35.

5 games back, Lidstrom was +3. Does that mean that his skills faded away in these 5 games, or was he just unlucky? Anyone who watched those games knows the truth. Babcock plays hims against the best opposing players as much as he can, because Lidstrom is still by far the best defenseman Wings have. Your continuous attempts to belittle Lidstrom are ridiculous.

My "favorite" is the notion that Lidstrom doesn't make his defensive partners (you know the string of rookies and journeymen followed by Brian Rafalski) better. Hell, an aging Larry Murphy played the best hockey of his life paired with pre-Norris Lidstrom.

 

[pluppe]

Are we really debating unadjusted plus-minus totals on the History forum?

well, there´s not very much else to throw at Lidström now, is there.