What do you think the reason is that certain players built for the postseason choked in the playoffs?

daver

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The things that make you the most mad are the things you know are true.

No one will ever say Messier wasn't absolute game in the playoffs. Anyone suggesting otherwise would simply be considered wrong or laughed at. Ovechkins playoff legacy, outside of his cup run and a few odd bright spots like 2008 is bad. Simple.

The OP is asking for "players built for the playoffs"; a bit of an odd premise given those who excelled in the playoffs, one would think, are the players who are "built for the playoffs."

I don't think Ovechkin was built for the playoffs. His game was based on physical skills and instinct. Crosby's game was more cerebral to compliment his physical skills and hunger to win. Messier's leadership and rise to the occasion

That being said, Ovechkin's playoffs are a bit underwhelming but a Cup is a Cup and Smythe is a Smythe. One does wonder if he had played the solid 2-way game he did in 2018 earlier in his career if that would have lead to better outcomes.

As I said, I don't think you can place Messier above OV all-time but can see how some would.
 

daver

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Ovechkin's two-way game was as bad as ever in 2018.

His dedication to playing responsible in his own zone was clearly different than his earlier career. Give him credit where credit it due. It was being commented on many times during the playoffs. Instead of circling around waiting to fly out of the zone once they got possession, he was clearly more engaged.

IMO, that set the tone for the team.
 

Gorskyontario

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The OP is asking for "players built for the playoffs"; a bit of an odd premise given those who excelled in the playoffs, one would think, are the players who are "built for the playoffs."

I don't think Ovechkin was built for the playoffs. His game was based on physical skills and instinct. Crosby's game was more cerebral to compliment his physical skills and hunger to win. Messier's leadership and rise to the occasion

That being said, Ovechkin's playoffs are a bit underwhelming but a Cup is a Cup and Smythe is a Smythe. One does wonder if he had played the solid 2-way game he did in 2018 earlier in his career if that would have lead to better outcomes.

As I said, I don't think you can place Messier above OV all-time but can see how some would.

I don't necessarily think Ovechkin was/is bad in the playoffs, but considering his talent level and the teams he lost to over the years he certainly isn't good. Especially since the caps have been pretty strong almost his whole career.
 

daver

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I don't necessarily think Ovechkin was/is bad in the playoffs, but considering his talent level and the teams he lost to over the years he certainly isn't good. Especially since the caps have been pretty strong almost his whole career.

His resume, like Jagr's, is left wanting. It adds an air of doubt as to whether their games could translate from the regular season to the playoffs which arguably keeps them out of the Top Ten all-time; a place where their regular season resumes could be placed.
 

The Macho King

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His resume, like Jagr's, is left wanting. It adds an air of doubt as to whether their games could translate from the regular season to the playoffs which arguably keeps them out of the Top Ten all-time; a place where their regular season resumes could be placed.
I think this is right. It's disappointing (relative to their regular season accolades and visible talent), but it's not *bad* per se.

Compared to a Stamkos or Thornton where it is bad and a major mark against them.
 

Midnight Judges

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Ovechkin is the only player who can lead the NHL in playoff goals for a period of 15 years and be called "disappointing" by this unserious forum.

Had he been born in Canada, his name would never have even entered this thread.
 
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The Macho King

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Ovechkin is the only player in history who can lead the NHL in playoff goals for a period of 15 years and be called "disappointing."

Had he been born in Canada, his name would never have even entered this thread.
Why would I give a shit about him being Canadian? I lived in DC for a huge chunk of his latter prime.

And yeah - the second leading goalscorer in history probably should lead the league in playoff goals for any stretch of his career. That is the expectation - and the minimum expectation at that. He is a sub-PPG player in the postseason (despite playing almost entirely in the 1st and second round - where scoring tends to be higher than the CF and SCF). That is disappointing.
 

Gorskyontario

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His resume, like Jagr's, is left wanting. It adds an air of doubt as to whether their games could translate from the regular season to the playoffs which arguably keeps them out of the Top Ten all-time; a place where their regular season resumes could be placed.

I think Jagr was significantly better than Ovechkin in the playoffs.
 

WarriorofTime

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And yeah - the second leading goalscorer in history probably should lead the league in playoff goals for any stretch of his career. That is the expectation - and the minimum expectation at that.
What are you talking about? This makes no sense. Is it the "minimum expectation" that Connor McDavid be the leading point producer in the postseason since his career began? Playoff production relies on playoff opportunity which relies on the team you're on.

The stretch that was referenced for why Ovechkin deserves to be included in this thread also saw Malkin and Crosby be sub-PPG performers in the postseason.


Only Ryan Getzlaf, believe it or not, was >PPG that stretch in a meaningful enough sample. Ovechkin's 26 goals, 24 assists, 50 points in 69 games those particular stretch of games is not really anything to write home about, but on the whole his playoff resume is solid. Not an all time playoff resume but not one that detracts from his regular season body of work. The pages of thread are silly but I suppose par for the course if people have an agenda to keep him out of their personal top 10 no matter what.
 

Gorskyontario

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Ovechkin is the only player who can lead the NHL in playoff goals for a period of 15 years and be called "disappointing" by this unserious forum.

Had he been born in Canada, his name would never have even entered this thread.

Or maybe he shouldn't have choked for the better part of his playoff career.

I'm just going to go ahead and assume you didn't watch the 2010 Montreal vs Capitals series(just the first example to spring to mind), where a very underwhelming 8 seed beat Ovechkin. Despite having 10 points in 7 games, which looks great on paper Ovechkin was absolutely worthless in that series. For those of us who watch games, and don't look at stat sheets. Yes, he has been disappointing in the playoffs for the majority of his career.
 

Midnight Judges

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Why would I give a shit about him being Canadian? I lived in DC for a huge chunk of his latter prime.

And yeah - the second leading goalscorer in history probably should lead the league in playoff goals for any stretch of his career. That is the expectation - and the minimum expectation at that. He is a sub-PPG player in the postseason (despite playing almost entirely in the 1st and second round - where scoring tends to be higher than the CF and SCF). That is disappointing.

You wouldn't even be talking about Ovechkin in this thread though, because he never would have been brought up in the first place.

And no, his playoff resume is quite excellent, not disappointing at all.

Ovechkin has led his team in playoff points and playoff goals more times than all sorts of players you probably think are clutch.

He's never had a bunch of HoF running mates (Backstrom, maybe? And that's about it). Among the top 30 players of all time, Ovie has BY FAR the worst next best player on the team. Virtually all of them shared the ice with other top 30 players - meaning defensive match-ups were shared. Not so for Ovie. He's never had a second line that was remotely as dangerous as his or running mate who would attract defense away from him. Backstrom is maybe a top 300 player of all time. Maybe. So teams focused entirely on Ovechkin his entire playoff career - and he still produced quite well.
 

Midnight Judges

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Or maybe he shouldn't have choked for the better part of his playoff career.

Good news then: He didn't. It flat out did not happen.

You are frothing at the mouth over Ovie. What is it that bothers you so much about him? Is it the place of his birth?
 

Gorskyontario

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You wouldn't even be talking about Ovechkin in this thread though, because he never would have been brought up in the first place.

And no, his playoff resume is quite excellent, not disappointing at all.

Ovechkin has led his team in playoff points and playoff goals more times than all sorts of players you probably think are clutch.

He's never had a bunch of HoF running mates (Backstrom, maybe? And that's about it). Among the top 30 players of all time, Ovie has BY FAR the worst next best player on the team. Virtually all of them shared the ice with other top 30 players - meaning defensive match-ups were shared. Not so for Ovie. He's never had a second line that was remotely as dangerous as his or running mate who would attract defense away from him. Backstrom is maybe a top 300 player of all time. Maybe. So teams focused entirely on Ovechkin his entire playoff career - and he still produced quite well.

Most of this is make belief and completely not based in reality.

List of Washington Capitals seasons - Wikipedia -> Easily disproven. 15 years of mostly good quality teams. Plenty of offensive depth both on Forward and D. This is reality, your post is fan fiction.

What is it that bothers you so much about him? Is it the place of his birth?

This is frankly the worst debating line I have ever seen in my life. The type of thing I would have said in the 3rd or 4th grade.

Also I would like you to prove how I am 'frothing' at the mouth over this, if you can't prove that you are simply a liar.
 

WarriorofTime

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Good news then: He didn't. It flat out did not happen.

You are frothing at the mouth over Ovie. What is it that bothers you so much about him? Is it the place of his birth?
When people have to cherrypick a select sample that shows he is "only" tied for 8th in goals and five away from the leader in 20 fewer playoff games it shows what level of discussion you are with. But they will keep moving the "Ovechkin-ton" window to say he was bad or that Semin and Green were good enough support to win a bunch more Cups or whatever suits them.
 

Gorskyontario

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Semin and Green were good enough support to win a bunch more Cups or whatever suits them.

The caps won the presidents trophy with those players then blew up in a pitiful 7 game series against the habs. Semin had his own struggles in the postseason but he was a 2nd line support player, not a generational talent. Cope about this however you need to.

The 2018 Smythe belonged to Kuznetsov. It's no surprise Ovechkin won seeing how hard the league promoted him, and how much he choked before then. Not the first time award voting has been objectively wrong however and it won't be the last.
 

TheDawnOfANewTage

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There are plenty of those names out there of players that I believe were built for the playoffs or at least had the size or skill or were tailored made with their physical style. But why do you think these players dropped the ball in the playoffs all of the time? Just sticking to these specific guys more or less because I am sure there are some opinions on this.

Alexei Yashin - 6'3" 225lbs. a hard right handed shot, played on some good teams too where he didn't have to do all the heavy lifting. Definitely played his way out of the hearts of the Ottawa Senators fans. Granted he wasn't a physical beast out there, but he was big. Looked like he might be onto something in 1997 and 1998 when he was playing on inferior teams that weren't expected to do much. But when he was playing on teams expecting to do more he folded up faster than a deck of cards. 1999, 2001, 2003, 2007 all come to mind, and even though when he was an Islander it wasn't expected that he was going to go far, he still was bad.

Pierre Larouche - Got lucky getting traded to Montreal in the middle of their dynasty. Pete Mahovlich was getting older but I think the Habs are still better off with his well rounded game. Larouche was young, he had huge support on the team, he eventually played on Lafleur's line and yet the two Cups he won he was often a healthy scratch in the playoffs! This is a guy who scored 50 goals twice! He seemed built to play on the Habs, a skilled French player who was a goal scorer. I get that Bowman didn't like him, but he did nothing of note in Pittsburgh and really only had a nice run in 1986 on New York.

Pat Quinn - So I am going the coaching angle here. Quinn was set up pretty good in Philly. I get it, they lost to an eventual dynasty in 1980, but the Flyers had a 35 game unbeaten streak that year. What do you think happened to him in the playoffs? 1992, 1993 both times the Canucks lost when they shouldn't have, I'll give them the magical 1994 run though. Then the Leafs and losing to teams that they were better than (1999, 2002) and not being able to get over the hump against Jersey or Philly either despite always having close series. Can't blame him when he coached Canada, he did well, but what about the NHL playoffs? He's a Hall of Fame coach.

Keith Tkachuk - Was he just in the same boat as a guy like Marcel Dionne where they keyed on him and there was never a lot of support behind him? To me, I don't think so. He also went to St. Louis, and then Atlanta and never did anything there either. Just seemed built for the postseason. Big, strong, good along the boards, good in the corners, could hit, could fight, was tough! And yet you never saw inspired hockey from him in the postseason. He certainly had support in St. Louis. In Phoenix it was all him and Roenick but you saw players of his type perform well and sort of take a series on their back, but he never did.

Joe Thornton - We beat a dead horse with a guy like poor Joe. He is comfortably a future HHOFer, no doubt. You can say in Boston he was younger, but those playoff stats are ugly, and he was a 100+ point guy in Boston and did nothing of note. San Jose he has tons of support. Dionne can't say this, Tkachuk can't say this at least not for that prolonged of time. So what gives? 6'4" 225 lbs. Classic case of a 2nd round bust. His teams were usually good enough to at least get that far but he never took the bull by the horns. Thornton was big, was tough, was a great playmaker and worked well down low and on the cycle (two big things in the postseason). Why was he different in the postseason? Was he not intense enough or too predictable? Did they all expect the pass from him? I don't know, but if there is a player that hasn't an excuse for his playoff failures it is him, because there are definitely times a good series by him catapults the Sharks to greatness.

I’m a Thornton apologist. Dude loved the game as much as anyone, so I just don’t see it as a drive/work ethic thing.

1) I think he was often banged up come playoffs. A common excuse, but you yourself note he’s big and strong, holds the puck a lot- that’ll lead to some lingering issues after 82 games, and he always seemed to play pretty full seasons. That one year he played through a torn ACL, I just kinda wonder if hockey code keeps him from whining about the wrist one year, an ankle the next, etc.
2) I think his game was fundamentally not built for playoffs. Not his fault, the tighter checking just eliminates his game at a higher rate than others. Add in Marleau being a top guy, another star whose style didn’t match playoffs, and you get these results.
3) Random statistical variance. I know it’s a large same size, but you’ll see a 100 point player put up 70 points in the next season sometimes. Same swings happen in playoffs, and for some guys it’s just a particularly nasty run at the table.
 
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WarriorofTime

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The 2018 Smythe belonged to Kuznetsov. It's no surprise Ovechkin won seeing how hard the league promoted him, and how much he choked before then. Not the first time award voting has been objectively wrong however and it won't be the last.
Ovechkin is the greatest goal scorer of all time and a Stanley Cup champion and Conn Smythe winner. Cope about this however you need to.
 

Midnight Judges

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I'm just going to go ahead and assume you didn't watch the 2010 Montreal vs Capitals series(just the first example to spring to mind), where a very underwhelming 8 seed beat Ovechkin. Despite having 10 points in 7 games, which looks great on paper Ovechkin was absolutely worthless in that series.

Yeah, no doubt a very underwhelming 8 seed "beat Ovechkin." That could never happen to Crosby, eh?
 

Gorskyontario

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Ovechkin is the greatest goal scorer of all time and a Stanley Cup champion and Conn Smythe winner. Cope about this however you need to.

I disagree with everything except obviously he did win a cup.

Yeah, no doubt a very underwhelming 8 seed "beat Ovechkin." That could never happen to Crosby, eh?

What does Sidney Crosby have to do with this thread?
 

WarriorofTime

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What does Sidney Crosby have to do with this thread?
If we are opening up the kitchen sink, then I would say I expect a player of his stature to lead every single postseason series he participates in points. So toss him in if we're just saying stuff based on our feelings now.
 

Midnight Judges

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What does Sidney Crosby have to do with this thread?

You seem to think Ovechkin's team losing to the Habs in 2010 somehow shows Ovechkin to be a poor playoff performer.

By your own metric, Sidney Crosby is a poor playoff performer. (No doubt you will once again abandon your own metric).

Nevermind the fact that your posts are full of lies and Ovechkin was excellent in the 2010 playoffs and by far the best player in that series.
 

Gorskyontario

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If we are opening up the kitchen sink, then I would say I expect a player of his stature to lead every single postseason series he participates in points. So toss him in if we're just saying stuff based on our feelings now.

Well his numbers are certainly much better than Ovechkins, he is also 3-1 in playoff series against Ovechkin despite being the lower seed every time.
 
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