Weak years for USSR/Czechoslovakia (players born 1955-1957)

[KillerMillerTime]

Why was the talent pool of players from USSR and Czechoslovakia born between1955-57 so shallow?

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[KillerMillerTime]

USSR Rostered 1980\84 Olympics 1981 Canada Cup

G Myshkin
D Pervukhin
D Bilayaletidinov
D Babinov
D Gimayev
F Varnakov
F Khatulev
F Shepelev
F Drozdetsky
F Tyumenev

Czechoslovakia

G None
D Svoboda
F Stastny
F Kyhos
F Holly
F Korbela

 

[KillerMillerTime]

US Players of note born from 1955-57

G Baker
G Craig
D Langway
D Larson
D Morrow
D O'Connell
D Dunn
F Howe
F Holmgren
F Jensen
F Rowe
F Fidler
F Miller
F Mullen
F Johnson
F Gorence

 

[KillerMillerTime]

Did US end up outpacing both countries those years?

 

[Albatros]

The Americans co-hosted the WJC in 1975 and finished dead last with zero points while the Soviets went undefeated. I don't think they had the better talent pool, no.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Mostly just variance, same as how in NHL some draft years end up being a lot stronger than others and you sometimes see periods where a few drafts staggered together are all quite strong and others where they end up quite weak over a multi-year period. I would imagine if you did a deep dive of the Soviet League during years that would be Prime for players in those years, you'd probably see a lot of roster players throughout, but the star power was just a bit higher amongst players slightly older and slightly younger. The Soviets did well in the World Juniors those years suggesting they were still developing good players generally, even though I know Canada didn't start sending an All-Star team until a few years into the tournament (not sure exactly when that change occurred, moving away from sending the Memorial Cup winners).

 

[Overrated]

Did US end up outpacing both countries those years?

Boris Alexandrov who didn't even make it into any of these events was likely better than any of the American players not named Mark Howe.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

Boris Alexandrov who didn't even make it into any of these events was likely better than any of the American players not named Mark Howe.

Was Mark Howe the best '55 born including Canada?

 

[KillerMillerTime]

Boris Alexandrov who didn't even make it into any of these events was likely better than any of the American players not named Mark Howe.

Czechoslovakia looked rough for 55-57 other than Stastny.

1980 USOT filled with 56\57 and handled Czechoslovakia easily.

Boris Alexandrov who didn't even make it into any of these events was likely better than any of the American players not named Mark Howe.

If US had infrastructure today back then their Jr Teams would have been pretty good.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

Mostly just variance, same as how in NHL some draft years end up being a lot stronger than others and you sometimes see periods where a few drafts staggered together are all quite strong and others where they end up quite weak over a multi-year period. I would imagine if you did a deep dive of the Soviet League during years that would be Prime for players in those years, you'd probably see a lot of roster players throughout, but the star power was just a bit higher amongst players slightly older and slightly younger. The Soviets did well in the World Juniors those years suggesting they were still developing good players generally, even though I know Canada didn't start sending an All-Star team until a few years into the tournament (not sure exactly when that change occurred, moving away from sending the Memorial Cup winners).

Czechoslovakia looked really weak beside Stastny.

US produced

55 Howe- Holmgren Jensen O'Connell

56 Larson Morrow Rowe Fidler Miller

57 Langway - Mullen Johnson

 

[Michael Farkas]

Why are minor league/fringe talents like FIdler and Rowe considered a positive, but like...Vladimir Kyhos isn't...?

 

[Albatros]

Also Peter Ihnačák had a decent NHL career.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

Why are minor league/fringe talents like FIdler and Rowe considered a positive, but like...Vladimir Kyhos isn't...?

Never said Kyhos was a negative, just not Stastny level.

[QUOTE="KillerMillerTime, post: 195391955, member: 3194
[/QUOTE]

 

[KillerMillerTime]

Why are minor league/fringe talents like FIdler and Rowe considered a positive, but like...Vladimir Kyhos isn't...?

Rowe and Fidler at age 22 had good production in 78-79.
Rowe scored 31 (1st US 30 goal guy in 69 games)

They had talent but suffered injuries next season especially Fidler.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Fidler, in particular, is a product of expansion. I had just watched him in a game with Cleveland from 1978...he's nothing.

And because he's the bar (and not Stastny), a player like Kyhos - who was probably better than Fidler - can't be an afterthought in this discussion is the only point I'm making...

Evaluating just on NHL production at a time where there were a ton of fly-by-night players isn't gonna shed a lot of light on the subject, especially because it's in comparison to players that couldn't reasonably play in the NHL at the same time...

 

[WarriorofTime]

The Soviets were generally pretty consistent. Perhaps because of system play which is a lot more plug and go when you are changing up personnel.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

Fidler, in particular, is a product of expansion. I had just watched him in a game with Cleveland from 1978...he's nothing.

And because he's the bar (and not Stastny), a player like Kyhos - who was probably better than Fidler - can't be an afterthought in this discussion is the only point I'm making...

Evaluating just on NHL production at a time where there were a ton of fly-by-night players isn't gonna shed a lot of light on the subject, especially because it's in comparison to players that couldn't reasonably play in the NHL at the same time...

In Fidler's first 3 years 1976-77 thru 1978-79 he absolutely produced at a top 6 level.

#77 Forward in PPG
#17 LW PPG
#9 LW Goals per game

#25 L\RW Goals\PG

Amongst 55-57 born NHL forwards placed about 15th in production.

He was injured basically the rest of his career.

So you watched a Fidler game or two? As relevant as me saying Fidler looked like a potential 1st line LW against USSR in 1978 Worlds.

 

[Caser]

USSR Rostered 1980\84 Olympics 1981 Canada Cup

G Myshkin
D Pervukhin
D Bilayaletidinov
D Babinov
D Gimayev
F Varnakov
F Khatulev
F Shepelev
F Drozdetsky
F Tyumenev

Myshkin was one of the best Soviet goalies all-time, Bilyaletdinov was one of the best Soviet Ds, Pervukhin was a consistent value during pretty much all of his playing years too. Khatulev was extremely talented, but the alcohol killed him. Drozdetsky was considered to be having work ethics issues, but still was named among the best Soviet players in 1984. Shepelev was arguably the best Soviet center of the first half of the 80s. Is that really weak?

 

[KillerMillerTime]

Myshkin was one of the best Soviet goalies all-time, Bilyaletdinov was one of the best Soviet Ds, Pervukhin was a consistent value during pretty much all of his playing years too. Khatulev was extremely talented, but the alcohol killed him. Drozdetsky was considered to be having work ethics issues, but still was named among the best Soviet players in 1984. Shepelev was arguably the best Soviet center of the first half of the 80s. Is that really weak?

Weak compared to

Myshkin was one of the best Soviet goalies all-time, Bilyaletdinov was one of the best Soviet Ds, Pervukhin was a consistent value during pretty much all of his playing years too. Khatulev was extremely talented, but the alcohol killed him. Drozdetsky was considered to be having work ethics issues, but still was named among the best Soviet players in 1984. Shepelev was arguably the best Soviet center of the first half of the 80s. Is that really weak?

Compared to other years its arguable.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

Myshkin was one of the best Soviet goalies all-time, Bilyaletdinov was one of the best Soviet Ds, Pervukhin was a consistent value during pretty much all of his playing years too. Khatulev was extremely talented, but the alcohol killed him. Drozdetsky was considered to be having work ethics issues, but still was named among the best Soviet players in 1984. Shepelev was arguably the best Soviet center of the first half of the 80s. Is that really weak?

Myshkin was very good.

Talent pool in hindsight between US, USSR and Sweden was actually close.
US lost their best goalie prospect since Brimsek to injury in Steve Baker.
Was 2nd goalie taken in '77 draft. Was first US goalie since Brimsek to win a Playoff series against a good STL team.