Wayne Gretzky overrated

[Sentinel]

Don't get me wrong, I think Gretzky was a genius and one of the best ever, I just think that his numbers put him in a category that sounds like he was much better than anyone else that ever played the game, and that's just not the case and what makes him overrated in my opinion. I think he had the best career from start to end, but for me Lemieux and Orr at their peaks were better players than Gretzky at his peak. I think everything played in Gretzky favour to have those kind of numbers, the Oilers offence, the 80's in my opinion were one of the weakest eras in terms of goalies in the NHL, Fuhr and Smith were the 2 best (they were good but not on the level of the best goalies of the 90's), and Roy is more associated with the 90's.

You know Gretzky lead the 90s in scoring too, right?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

As it usually comes down to this with Gretzky:

Overrated as an offensive player, certainly not.

Overrated as a player, yes.

 

[Johnny Engine]

The whole "inflated scoring in the 80s" line has become exaggerated by people who weren't there. Of course, scoring was higher on average, but it's not like every game was 12-9. There were teams in the 80s who allowed fewer goals than many teams do today -- Gretzky still dominated them.

I checked up on this...it really depends on what you mean by "many," but it looks like a bit of a stretch to me.
The absolute worst defensive teams from 2007-onward have been giving up under 300 goals a season - the 2007 Flyers are the worst, at 297 goals against. The Oilers from the same season are 26th-worst at 260, out of 300* total seasons.
While the 1980 Sabres did exceptionally, allowing only 201 goals, it drops off fast enough from there that the 1981 Islanders, with 260 goals against, are 31st best out of 210 total seasons.
Which makes an overlap of 57 teams over the course of 10 years. Which is not nothing, but it still means that within that overlap, the stingy Canadiens teams of the 80s were putting up similar GA toals to today's lottery-bound disaster squads.

*I intentionally covered one extra season to compensate for the 48-game 2013 season. All of the 30 lowest GA totals from that period are from that season, so those can be thrown out without changing anything.

 

[canucks4ever]

I would argue the opposite. Defensemen on this forum are a bit overrated. Well, its human nature. Forward is the position with more talent and glory, therefore its natural for people to like defensemen and goalie more. Forwards are the best players. If Bobby Orr didn't put up those big number seasons, nobody is going to rank him above Gretzky.

 

[The Panther]

I checked up on this...it really depends on what you mean by "many," but it looks like a bit of a stretch to me.
The absolute worst defensive teams from 2007-onward have been giving up under 300 goals a season - the 2007 Flyers are the worst, at 297 goals against. The Oilers from the same season are 26th-worst at 260, out of 300* total seasons.
While the 1980 Sabres did exceptionally, allowing only 201 goals, it drops off fast enough from there that the 1981 Islanders, with 260 goals against, are 31st best out of 210 total seasons.
Which makes an overlap of 57 teams over the course of 10 years. Which is not nothing, but it still means that within that overlap, the stingy Canadiens teams of the 80s were putting up similar GA toals to today's lottery-bound disaster squads.

*I intentionally covered one extra season to compensate for the 48-game 2013 season. All of the 30 lowest GA totals from that period are from that season, so those can be thrown out without changing anything.

You probably didn't need to go to this much trouble. My point was, there were defense-first teams in the 80s, and Gretzky still dominated them. There were offense-first teams, and Gretzky dominated them. There were in-between teams, and Gretzky dominated them. There were international tournaments of Best-on-Best and Gretzky dominated in them.

Random example of what I was talking about: In 1980-81, the Montreal Canadiens allowed 232 goals against. For a comparison, last season (2016-17) there were about 7 or 8 teams in the Eastern Conference that allowed more goals-against than that, and about 5 in the Western conference. That is, one-third to one-half of all NHL teams last season allowed the same or more goals-against than Montreal in 1981.

In 1981, as we know, Gretzky met Montreal in the playoffs, and he lit them up for 11 points in three games, and wasn't on the ice for a single Montreal goal against.

As I said, get back to me when someone wins 8 straight League MVPs, and then we'll talk about over-rated....

 

[Iapyi]

Sorry, but that's a ridicilous Statement. A single payer, even Gretzky, has a minimal effect on the leauge averages in Terms of Goals per game.

like i said in my third paragraph i feel sorry for those who didn't get to watch him play.

the only thing that is ridiculous is your comment that it's ridiculous.

you obviously didn't experience it so you should stick to what you have.

 

[Thenameless]

Among the knowledgeable he's not overrated. His career stats come from the perfect storm but he may not actually be much better than the other 3 if at all.

 

[blood gin]

Ridiculous. Gretzky right now is pretty much like the Beatles. He's become underrated if anything.

Basically you had to watch the NHL pre Gretzky and then see somebody like him arrive on the scene to get the full appreciation of things. It was really almost impossible.

He was not a physical specimen at first glance by any means, but he was gifted with incredible abilities to recovery and get right back on the ice while others are still gassed from a grueling shift (this was tested I believe at Oilers camp in the 80's). His vision and awareness have never been even approached. Anticipation, thinking multiple steps ahead, controlling the game. Because the brute strength was never there and he was something of a thin, wiry guy, he had to devise other ways to evade, elude, deceive others on the ice. His formative years were played against much larger competition...if he didn't figure out how to avoid and outwit them he'd be crushed.

Then came the precision. It's one thing to think the game like a genius but Gretzky also had unbelievable hand eye coordination and an unprecedented ability to put the puck exactly where he wanted to whenever he wanted to. Any corner, any teammates stick from everywhere. His shot was never amongst the hardest in the league, but nobody put it exactly where he wanted it more often than Wayne.

Then the mental toughness. He was a child prodigy...people hated him. He was booed mercilessly when he was 10 years old. By the time he got to the WHA and NHL, he was a lot more hardened and ready for this than others thought.

Gretzky WAS the perfect storm. Nobody has put together such a combination of work ethic, skill, precision, dedication, intellect, mental toughness, and passion...plus a few genetic gifts. He's Babe Ruth level really. He's above Jordan, above Tom Brady and Peyton Manning.

 

[WingsFan95]

For typical fan boys yes.

NBA has the same issue with Jordan.

Both Gretz & Jordan were the reliable product in the 90s right at the onset of global television and internet. One played in LA, then NY and the other Chicago.

MLB & NFL are different animals. But the NHL & NBA needed a God figure.

 

[VMBM]

Ridiculous. Gretzky right now is pretty much like the Beatles. He's become underrated if anything.

Interesting comparison! I've never thought that the Beatles was underrated. Yes, there are detractors (ignorant & non-ignorant), but that's fairly natural when a group is widely considered the best and most important of all-time (which imo it is, although not my absolute favourite band)... and that's in music, where it is harder to define 'greatness' than in sports and where taste/preference plays a huge role.

I think Gretzky is overrated because every thread concerning him always seem to get a zillion responses!
I only wish that some of my favourite players would be as interesting to people.

 

[TomatoJos]

The whole "inflated scoring in the 80s" line has become exaggerated by people who weren't there. Of course, scoring was higher on average, but it's not like every game was 12-9. There were teams in the 80s who allowed fewer goals than many teams do today -- Gretzky still dominated them.

In playoffs, scoring normally went way down in the 80s because the worst teams were out, and because teams tightened up. Gretzky still dominated.

International hockey? Canadians vs. the Soviet machine? Swedes? Finns? Gretzky dominated them all.

So, get back to me when someone wins 8 straight MVP awards. Or 7. Or 6. Or 5.

Gretzky dominated them all?
"Dominated" is perhaps not the right word here.

He could dominate the mickey mouse clubs but I haven't seen him dominate the Soviets. Yes, he set up Lemieux's hat trick once but it certainly wasn't a domination.

 

[daver]

Wayne's playoff and best-on-best performances should put to rest any doubts about him.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Random example of what I was talking about: In 1980-81, the Montreal Canadiens allowed 232 goals against. For a comparison, last season (2016-17) there were about 7 or 8 teams in the Eastern Conference that allowed more goals-against than that, and about 5 in the Western conference. That is, one-third to one-half of all NHL teams last season allowed the same or more goals-against than Montreal in 1981.

But you said there were "many" teams, which is only true if "many" means the 2-4 most extreme examples each year. And no, Montreal in 1981 wasn't a "random" example. You'd have to very deliberately go looking for an example that far outside the norm - the 8th lowest number of the decade.
Your point that Gretzky scored well against a variety of teams is solid, but the number of teams this applies to is overstated. 260 goals against in 1981 gets you a first place finish and the 2nd cup in a dynasty. 260 goals against in 2011 gets you Ryan Nugent-Hopkins in the draft.

 

[Sentinel]

Gretzky dominated them all?
"Dominated" is perhaps not the right word here.

He could dominate the mickey mouse clubs but I haven't seen him dominate the Soviets. Yes, he set up Lemieux's hat trick once but it certainly wasn't a domination.

Canada Cups:

	PLAYER	GAMES	GOALS	ASSISTS	POINTS
1	Wayne Gretzky, CAN	39	20	44	69	1.77
2	Sergei Makarov, USSR	22	16	15	31	1.41
3	Vladimir Krutov, USSR	22	14	16	30	1.36
4	Paul Coffey, CAN	33	6	25	31	0.94
5	Mark Messier, CAN	32	6	20	26	0.81

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[The Panther]

But you said there were "many" teams, which is only true if "many" means the 2-4 most extreme examples each year.

Okay, so that would be 30, and yes 30 is many.

 

[TomatoJos]

Canada Cups:

	PLAYER	GAMES	GOALS	ASSISTS	POINTS
1	Wayne Gretzky, CAN	39	20	44	69	1.77
2	Sergei Makarov, USSR	22	16	15	31	1.41
3	Vladimir Krutov, USSR	22	14	16	30	1.36
4	Paul Coffey, CAN	33	6	25	31	0.94
5	Mark Messier, CAN	32	6	20	26	0.81

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Thanks.

Have you got Gretzky's stats versus the Soviets and Red Army club?

 

[daver]

Thanks.

Have you got Gretzky's stats versus the Soviets and Red Army club?

Don't you already have those numbers given your claim that you "haven't seen him dominate the Soviets"?

 

[TomatoJos]

Don't you already have those numbers given your claim that you "haven't seen him dominate the Soviets"?

No, I don't have the stats.

But I watched Gretzky play vs the Soviet teams.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Lemieux was a better player in his prime IMO.

 

[NewUser293223]

As an offensive player, Gretzky was nonpareil. He can't be rated or evaluated properly. You can at best question the value of what he represented (scoring a lot of points).

He pays the typical price for being the greatest. He's taken for granted. From time to time, some people grow bored with his name and begin constructing wild "arguments" to detract him. They all just add up to his legacy.

 

[The Panther]

Gretzky dominated them all?
"Dominated" is perhaps not the right word here.

He could dominate the mickey mouse clubs but I haven't seen him dominate the Soviets. Yes, he set up Lemieux's hat trick once but it certainly wasn't a domination.

Eh... What?

"Dominated" is exactly the right word.

First of all -- the Soviets: On the rare occasions when Gretzky played against them in best-on-bests (those in his prime years between 1981 and 1991), here's how he did:

9GP: 3G + 14A = 17PTS (weirdly, he didn't score against them in one game in '91, but anyway...)

So, when the Soviet Union team was at its best (1980s), Gretzky only got 16 points in 8 games against them, in best-on-best tournaments (at Canada Cup). I haven't got the Soviet players' stats to hand vs. Canada, but it would be interesting to compare...


Then, to your point about "Mickey Mouse clubs": In Gretzky's salad-days in Edmonton, here's how he did in regular season against the top teams in the NHL (top between 1979-80 and 1987-88):
vs. Montreal
28GP: 17G + 35A = 52PTS

vs. Philadelphia
27GP: 27G + 32A = 59PTS

vs. Boston
27GP: 12G + 28A = 40PTS

vs. Calgary
62GP: 47G + 92A = 133PTS

vs. Buffalo
29GP: 15G + 35A = 50PTS


So, let's see... Against the NHL's top 5 teams during those nine years (excl. Edmonton, obviously), Gretzky put up a grand total of: 173GP: 118G + 222A = 340PTS
If you project this pace to an 80-game season, it's: 55G + 103A = 158PTS -- which is more than any other player in history had ever scored in a season -- and this is an average for 9 years. So, domination again. However, in reality he probably would have put up better numbers than that if he'd been playing these teams regularly. As the playoffs show, when he played such teams (Philly, Boston) more often, he did better...

Now, what about playoffs? How did Gretzky, with Edmonton, do in the third and fourth rounds only of the playoffs, when those weaker and more offensive teams like Winnipeg and L.A. were already dispensed with? Let's see:
vs. third and fourth round in playoffs:
50GP: 30G + 71A = 101PTS
If you project this pace to an 80-game season, it's: 48G + 114A = 162 PTS -- which, again, is more than anybody before him (or any player in history except Mario twice) had scored, ever. And that's in the championship rounds of the playoffs, when most players' scoring stats go down by as much as 50%.

So, in conclusion, Gretzky dominated the Soviets, dominated the best NHL teams, and dominated against the toughest playoff competition. Better luck next time!

 

[NewUser293223]

Lemieux was a better player in his prime IMO.

Based on what though?

 

[daver]

No, I don't have the stats.

But I watched Gretzky play vs the Soviet teams.

He had 3 points in two games in 1981. Can't find the stats for the two games in 1984. He had 11 points in four games in 1987. So 14 points in 6 games.

Seems pretty dominant to me. Certainly no where near a big enough sample size to counter the over 1600 regular season and playoff games, let alone even his stats against the other Canada Cup competition.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Gretzky is what he is: An offensive genius, THE offensive genius of hockey history, and a great leader on top of it.You can play with his numbers all day and all night long, in the end Gretzky boils down to what I said.

Maybe his numbers were a perfect storm, maybe this, maybe that, but there's no maybe that he was the greatest offensive genius and a great leader.So where do you rank such a guy, THE offensive genius in history and a great leader with multiple cups? Well you rank him somewhere in the Top-5, and most likely Top-3.

So no, not overrated.

 

[Reindl87]

Take Gretzky and Lemieux out of the game all together, the 80s are still higher scoring, but not nearly as high and as "terrible" as people like to make it out to be. The highest scoring season would Be 155 points by Yzerman in '89.

Take Gretzky and Lemieux away and overall scoring would still be more or less the same. Goals per game wouldn'drop. It's much easier to get 200 Points in a leauge that has 8 Goals per game, than getting them in leauge that has 5 Goals per game.