Was moving to Brooklyn a mistake for the Islanders?

[Bones45]

Honestly? No. Not unless the sport of hockey becomes more popular.

The Nets had infinitely more advantages when they moved to Barclays in terms of marketing, full embracing of Brooklyn as their home, an arena that was designed specifically with basketball in mind, big media hype, a super rich owner, etc. Not to mention basketball has a ton more fans in NY than hockey, and the resident franchise, the Knicks, have been one of the worst franchises in sports for over a decade. The table was set for the Nets to become a big hit in NY...

...and they failed miserably. Turns out, building from an almost entirely new fanbase is pretty hard. And that's really what the Islanders (and Barclays) are banking on with this relationship. It's not about the Islanders' profit line in the short term, but their potential for growth.

The Islanders profits right now are aided heavily by the sweetheart deal that Barclays provided them. This is a trial run to see if the Isles can gain some traction in Brooklyn/NYC. Retaining the old fan base is nice, but if Barclays hasn't made it evident already, their give a crap level about hardcore Islanders fans is pretty low. They need the fanbase to grow and grow significantly.

Put differently: the Islanders are former homeowners who were foreclosed on. Barclays has a sweet house, and invited the Islanders to come over and live basically rent free for a while on the premise that they can get on their feet and maybe go halves on the mortgage at some point, and be successful. I mean hey, why not? Barclays owners need someone to live in and maintain the house for a bit. For the time being, it seems like this is an awesome deal for the Islanders because all of a sudden those paychecks look a lot fatter.

At some point, if they don't start growing and becoming a seriously profitable hockey franchise, the homeowner (Barclays) is going to start looking at the Isles like deadbeats if they don't start selling out more dates and growing the fanbase. So forget the $53 million per year profit. It's a band-aid. The question is and has always been: can the Islanders be a successful franchise in terms of fan base and business?

IMO, unless they can get a new arena built on LI around a big downtown hub like in Huntington or somewhere, ownership will realize that there is way more money to be made by moving the team to Seattle or somewhere else. Way too many cities are hot for an NHL franchise. This Isles situation is not going to just remain in a weird limbo where Barclays subsidizes them as an "also featuring" act.

I don't mean this in a spiteful way or anything. I'm a Rangers fan from LI that thinks the Islanders-Rangers rivalry is good for NY and good for hockey. I hope they find a way to make it back to the Island in a bigger way than ever, and we can have two very good teams (because the Isles on-ice product is the best it has been for many years, no question) in NY. But I just don't see Brooklyn working out at all. They had a hard enough time establishing a fanbase on the Island for decades because the Rangers had been around so long - now they're going to do it in the Rangers' back yard, for neo-Brooklynites who could probably give a crap less about sports in general? Doesn't look good IMO.

Well done. What he said.

 

[patnyrnyg]

This is a really good post. Barclays should've focused more on bringing the existing fan base over because most of Brooklyn doesn't give a **** about hockey.

Most of Manhattan doesn't give a **** about hockey, how's the Rangers fan base. Brooklyn has almost 3 million residents. How many do the Islanders need to get into their fanbase?

How many more tickets could they sell if the existing fan base were all happy? They are averaging 13,000+ a night, what was the average the last 10 years in Nassau?

 

[Doshell Propivo]

This is a really good post. Barclays should've focused more on bringing the existing fan base over because most of Brooklyn doesn't give a **** about hockey.

How about a $5 Metro Card voucher for every LI resident that attends a game? Would that do it?

By the way, most of LI doesn't give a **** about hockey either.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

This is a trial run to see if the Isles can gain some traction in Brooklyn/NYC.

How in the world is this a "trial run?"

 

[Bones45]

How in the world is this a "trial run?"

Doesn't the existence of the out clause prove this? When the agreement was drafted and signed apparently both sides looked at each other and..

"You know.. this could really suck, lets make it so that we can end it if we want after a couple of years. "

Right?

 

[24diving]

This is a really good post. Barclays should've focused more on bringing the existing fan base over because most of Brooklyn doesn't give a **** about hockey.

The fan base from LI is completely irrelevant to the success or failure of the Barclays/NYI partnership. In the end, its all about the $, and mostly the corporate $ at that.
This is what really bothers me the most...i have accepted that the long time fans from the island are no longer essential or even wanted, and I find that kind of sad ... the whole culture of the team is changing, which can be exciting and fun for some ( I am trying to be this guy ), yet at the same time depressing-- mostly from a nostalgic point of view.

 

[Bones45]

All this talk makes me want to go to a game.

 

[IceAce]

This is a really good post. Barclays should've focused more on bringing the existing fan base over because most of Brooklyn doesn't give a **** about hockey.

Technically most of NY metro doesn't "give a ****" about hockey, yet we've had 3 franchises here for 34 years now.

Read the NY Mag link I posted a few pages back, attendance is trending up in the new year and we've had the majority of our sellouts in the last month and a half.

 

[24diving]

By the way, most of LI doesn't give a **** about hockey either.

true, but then again we can expand that to most of NY or most of the USA....
hockey's presence on LI is much greater than that of Brooklyn, but hopefully that improves with a team actually in Brooklyn now.

 

[Bert Marshall days]

That is beside the point. I asked if there was a way to quantify it since majority and minority being happy/unhappy was being bandied about.

You also don't know how many total fans who identify themselves as NYI fans exist. I'm drawing from some basic metrics we've discussed here on BOH about the required size of a fan base to make a team viable. That's why we're leery of setting up new teams in places that have fewer than 1 million total residents, for example. That market is not big enough to compete with the other teams in terms of the revenue, broadcast and sponsorships it will need for viability. A team is not viable if they can only claim 30-40K "fans" in the entire market.


Edit: You are aware that this thread is on the business board? That really does mean that we will boil it down to business success-- franchise valuations, viability, broadcast issues, gate receipts, and fan investment.

If it's just blah blah blah and gripes against or rooting for....it has no place on this section of HF.

In post #762 you said you'd seen a lot of complaints. I asked you how many (to get to the analysis if it's the minority or majority in help quantifying) and you say it's besides the point? I'd still like a number but if you don't wish to give it I'll assume I've seen more who enjoy it.

TV ratings, past attendance, the size of the last cup parade, demographic studies, those who voted yes for the new arena, discussions with team marketing reps etc have given a good determination of the size of NYI's fan base which is small. Come on.

EDIT- Perhaps we haven't met - I'm Bert. If you read my posts particularly in the early part of this thread and the last one I'M the one telling people this is the business board and to focus on the financial implications, franchise valuations, viability, broadcast issues, gate receipts, lease terms, revenue etc. (that is beneficial for Barclays) I tell folks THAT'S what matters - on the business board. Not how it sucks because of the few bad seats etc.

Which is why I don't get the title of this thread since Barclays and NYI are doing so well financially which I've pointed out often and hardly a mistake.

I totally agree and would prefer the discussion change back to the financial discussion instead of the emotional part.

 

[Lame Lambert]

Most of Manhattan doesn't give a **** about hockey, how's the Rangers fan base. Brooklyn has almost 3 million residents. How many do the Islanders need to get into their fanbase?

How many more tickets could they sell if the existing fan base were all happy? They are averaging 13,000+ a night, what was the average the last 10 years in Nassau?

You can't use the attendance at Nassau for the last ten years because the team was ****ing atrocious. Only the '14-'15 season should be used as comparison as it has the same roster and similar success. And in regards to Brooklyn fans, most hockey fans in Brooklyn are Rangers fans already.

 

[BroadwayJay*]

Honestly? No. Not unless the sport of hockey becomes more popular.

The Nets had infinitely more advantages when they moved to Barclays in terms of marketing, full embracing of Brooklyn as their home, an arena that was designed specifically with basketball in mind, big media hype, a super rich owner, etc. Not to mention basketball has a ton more fans in NY than hockey, and the resident franchise, the Knicks, have been one of the worst franchises in sports for over a decade. The table was set for the Nets to become a big hit in NY...

...and they failed miserably.

Oh it failed for the Nets? When did they move away? I must have missed it.

The Islanders profits right now are aided heavily by the sweetheart deal that Barclays provided them. This is a trial run to see if the Isles can gain some traction in Brooklyn/NYC. Retaining the old fan base is nice, but if Barclays hasn't made it evident already, their give a crap level about hardcore Islanders fans is pretty low. They need the fanbase to grow and grow significantly.

Put differently: the Islanders are former homeowners who were foreclosed on. Barclays has a sweet house, and invited the Islanders to come over and live basically rent free for a while on the premise that they can get on their feet and maybe go halves on the mortgage at some point, and be successful. I mean hey, why not? Barclays owners need someone to live in and maintain the house for a bit. For the time being, it seems like this is an awesome deal for the Islanders because all of a sudden those paychecks look a lot fatter.

At some point, if they don't start growing and becoming a seriously profitable hockey franchise, the homeowner (Barclays) is going to start looking at the Isles like deadbeats if they don't start selling out more dates and growing the fanbase. So forget the $53 million per year profit. It's a band-aid. The question is and has always been: can the Islanders be a successful franchise in terms of fan base and business?

I mean, why do you think the Islanders are deadbeats? Did you not see that they outsold the entirety of 2014-15 by 30% in 12 home games this year?

Since you missed it:



Or maybe that by mid-December they were up to 35%?

He’s off to a strong start; the team’s revenue was up 35% through mid-December, compared with the entirety of the Islanders’ final season at Nassau Coliseum, mostly because of the premium seating at Barclays.

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/articl...e-carries-the-islanders-banner-into-a-new-era

Let's get back to this:

can the Islanders be a successful franchise in terms of fan base and business?

Answer appears to me to be quite clearly, yes. At least in terms of business. Fan base, I'm not so sure what you think that means.

IMO, unless they can get a new arena built on LI around a big downtown hub like in Huntington or somewhere, ownership will realize that there is way more money to be made by moving the team to Seattle or somewhere else. Way too many cities are hot for an NHL franchise. This Isles situation is not going to just remain in a weird limbo where Barclays subsidizes them as an "also featuring" act.

I don't mean this in a spiteful way or anything. I'm a Rangers fan from LI that thinks the Islanders-Rangers rivalry is good for NY and good for hockey. I hope they find a way to make it back to the Island in a bigger way than ever, and we can have two very good teams (because the Isles on-ice product is the best it has been for many years, no question) in NY. But I just don't see Brooklyn working out at all. They had a hard enough time establishing a fanbase on the Island for decades because the Rangers had been around so long - now they're going to do it in the Rangers' back yard, for neo-Brooklynites who could probably give a crap less about sports in general? Doesn't look good IMO.

Alright. Thanks for your input. I can see Brooklyn working out. It certainly works for me.

 

[BroadwayJay*]

Well done. What he said.

Man, you really get along with Ranger fans these days, huh?

 

[Doshell Propivo]

You can't use the attendance at Nassau for the last ten years because the team was ****ing atrocious. Only the '14-'15 season should be used as comparison as it has the same roster and similar success. And in regards to Brooklyn fans, most hockey fans in Brooklyn are Rangers fans already.

The '14-'15 season was a complete anomaly as it was NVMC's swan song. And attendance was still 25th in the league.

 

[Bert Marshall days]

I wasn't going to get into this discussion, but the quoted post sums up the whole thing rather accurately:

The Islanders receive $50 million a year irrespective of the amount of Nassau Islander fans that won't go to Barclay's games. Conversely, some believe that the Islanders should abandon much of that $50 million to appease long-time fans that didn't show up to NVMC for the past decade-plus to help make the team more profitable.

Great point which is often overlooked.

 

[FourRings]

Talking to my rep, the organization is aware that they got absolutely killed by the scheduling, and a lot of that was self-inflicted as they had some misconceptions on what would work best (you'd be shocked by how many Saturday nights are dark at Barclays). No promises, he said, as there are lots of moving parts, but expect to see a fan-friendlier schedule next season.

That would work absolute wonders for the typical LI fan.

 

[Lame Lambert]

The '14-'15 season was a complete anomaly as it was NVMC's swan song. And attendance was still 25th in the league.

You can say the same exact thing about the first season at Barclays. It was 25th in the league in the 2nd smallest arena. You should know better since you're constantly using that same argument to defend Barclays.

 

[Bert Marshall days]

You can't use the attendance at Nassau for the last ten years because the team was ****ing atrocious. Only the '14-'15 season should be used as comparison as it has the same roster and similar success. And in regards to Brooklyn fans, most hockey fans in Brooklyn are Rangers fans already.

Come on. Over the 43 year history of the franchise the attendance has sucked unless the team was winning Cups or the last half of the final season. Attendance was bad only a few years after the last cup. Attendance in playoff years in the early 2000s wasn't good. People can't go ONLY when the team is winning and expect to be catered to. LI had so many fans that NYI moved and couldn't get a new arena. Time to go, time to grow.

 

[24diving]

Did you not see that they outsold the entirety of 2014-15 by 30% in 12 home games this year?

Jay, as we talked about in the past, citing this reference isn't really great, since we have no idea if they have included suites and seasons for the whole year as part of through 12 games, or how they are accounting for the all-inclusive sales for both suites and seats...if they include my $165 Ice pass tix only as ticket revenue when easily $50 of that is spent on food/drink which is included, ....regardless, i am sure we are all in agreement that someone is making more $ at Barclays.
The unique arrangement between venue and team leads me to believe that NYI are getting the best of the deal but who really knows. The recent articles out including the "out clause" seem to me to be a ploy to get the 2 sides to renegotiate $ going forward--and most likely means someone is unhappy with the way things stand, but who knows, that is just me reading between the lines
and the article you linked has the following
"The Islander fan base coming from Long Island has exceeded our expectations. Well north of 5,000 people are taking the Long Island Rail Road for every game"
any idea how yormark got this info, and just how far north is well north of 5000
ps dont let Bert know there are well north of 5000 Long Islanders taking the LIRR every game (not to mention those who drive) it will ruin his talking point about how the suburbanites arent supportive

 

[stranger34]

Honestly? No. Not unless the sport of hockey becomes more popular.

The Nets had infinitely more advantages when they moved to Barclays in terms of marketing, full embracing of Brooklyn as their home, an arena that was designed specifically with basketball in mind, big media hype, a super rich owner, etc. Not to mention basketball has a ton more fans in NY than hockey, and the resident franchise, the Knicks, have been one of the worst franchises in sports for over a decade. The table was set for the Nets to become a big hit in NY...

...and they failed miserably. Turns out, building from an almost entirely new fanbase is pretty hard. And that's really what the Islanders (and Barclays) are banking on with this relationship. It's not about the Islanders' profit line in the short term, but their potential for growth.

The Islanders profits right now are aided heavily by the sweetheart deal that Barclays provided them. This is a trial run to see if the Isles can gain some traction in Brooklyn/NYC. Retaining the old fan base is nice, but if Barclays hasn't made it evident already, their give a crap level about hardcore Islanders fans is pretty low. They need the fanbase to grow and grow significantly.

Put differently: the Islanders are former homeowners who were foreclosed on. Barclays has a sweet house, and invited the Islanders to come over and live basically rent free for a while on the premise that they can get on their feet and maybe go halves on the mortgage at some point, and be successful. I mean hey, why not? Barclays owners need someone to live in and maintain the house for a bit. For the time being, it seems like this is an awesome deal for the Islanders because all of a sudden those paychecks look a lot fatter.

At some point, if they don't start growing and becoming a seriously profitable hockey franchise, the homeowner (Barclays) is going to start looking at the Isles like deadbeats if they don't start selling out more dates and growing the fanbase. So forget the $53 million per year profit. It's a band-aid. The question is and has always been: can the Islanders be a successful franchise in terms of fan base and business?

IMO, unless they can get a new arena built on LI around a big downtown hub like in Huntington or somewhere, ownership will realize that there is way more money to be made by moving the team to Seattle or somewhere else. Way too many cities are hot for an NHL franchise. This Isles situation is not going to just remain in a weird limbo where Barclays subsidizes them as an "also featuring" act.

I don't mean this in a spiteful way or anything. I'm a Rangers fan from LI that thinks the Islanders-Rangers rivalry is good for NY and good for hockey. I hope they find a way to make it back to the Island in a bigger way than ever, and we can have two very good teams (because the Isles on-ice product is the best it has been for many years, no question) in NY. But I just don't see Brooklyn working out at all. They had a hard enough time establishing a fanbase on the Island for decades because the Rangers had been around so long - now they're going to do it in the Rangers' back yard, for neo-Brooklynites who could probably give a crap less about sports in general? Doesn't look good IMO.

Good post and this is why I've been saying that I think they should go all in on a Brooklyn rebranding if this move is going to be permanent. Sticking with the old isles stuff is a losing proposition. There is a pretty hard ceiling on the LI fanbase they will retain and they are leaving new fans on the table by passing on the rebrand.

I think by year 3 they will feel they have maxed out their LI retention. If they are committed to the Barclays long term, I think they will aggressively change the brand around year 3 or 4.

 

[stranger34]

Most of Manhattan doesn't give a **** about hockey, how's the Rangers fan base. Brooklyn has almost 3 million residents. How many do the Islanders need to get into their fanbase?

How many more tickets could they sell if the existing fan base were all happy? They are averaging 13,000+ a night, what was the average the last 10 years in Nassau?

Real Rangers fans watch on TV

The Knicks and rangers have so much corporate support they will never have an attendance problem. That is not going to directly translate to Brooklyn regardless of the population.

 

[Bert Marshall days]

Barclays should've focused more on bringing the existing fan base over

The existing fan base that helped NYI leave? What exactly should Barclays have done to focus more on bringing this "existing fan base" over? What hasn't been changed to accommodate the existing fan base? (i've seen tons of changes)

IMO, some of the existing fan base is holding NYI back from growing a bigger fan base in Brooklyn with all their whiny demands and criticism.

Ooops, this is the business board - um, how will the small existing fan base who didn't support NYI financially on LI for so many years be more beneficial than growing the fan base to other people like Brooklynders and those west and achieve more revenue, growth, return on investment etc?

 

[stranger34]

The fan base from LI is completely irrelevant to the success or failure of the Barclays/NYI partnership. In the end, its all about the $, and mostly the corporate $ at that.
This is what really bothers me the most...i have accepted that the long time fans from the island are no longer essential or even wanted, and I find that kind of sad ... the whole culture of the team is changing, which can be exciting and fun for some ( I am trying to be this guy ), yet at the same time depressing-- mostly from a nostalgic point of view.

Spot on! You articulated maybe what I've found most depressing about the move. Something about the Islanders in Barclays center lacks soul for me.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

You can say the same exact thing about the first season at Barclays. It was 25th in the league in the 2nd smallest arena. You should know better since you're constantly using that same argument to defend Barclays.

EXACTLY my point! And they are 27th in the league now in the smallest arena. 25th was great but 27th is a disaster?

 

[Bert Marshall days]

Jay, as we talked about in the past, citing this reference isn't really great, since we have no idea if they have included suites and seasons for the whole year as part of through 12 games, or how they are accounting for the all-inclusive sales for both suites and seats...if they include my $165 Ice pass tix only as ticket revenue when easily $50 of that is spent on food/drink which is included, ....regardless, i am sure we are all in agreement that someone is making more $ at Barclays.
The unique arrangement between venue and team leads me to believe that NYI are getting the best of the deal but who really knows. The recent articles out including the "out clause" seem to me to be a ploy to get the 2 sides to renegotiate $ going forward--and most likely means someone is unhappy with the way things stand, but who knows, that is just me reading between the lines
and the article you linked has the following
"The Islander fan base coming from Long Island has exceeded our expectations. Well north of 5,000 people are taking the Long Island Rail Road for every game"
any idea how yormark got this info, and just how far north is well north of 5000
ps dont let Bert know there are well north of 5000 Long Islanders taking the LIRR every game (not to mention those who drive) it will ruin his talking point about how the suburbanites arent supportive

5000 out of 13K-14K average is nothing to brag about. Especially since that was where the team was for 43 years and is now the minority by a good amount. Come on. That's disappointing. I thought that number would be higher.