News Article: Was Chevy close to blowing it up?

[Ducky10]

Their evaluations is what counts only to the extent that the scouts provide their evaluations to the leadership group lead by Chevy who then make the decisions. I made this point earlier, but running a NHL team would not be much different then running any other business or large organization. You put skilled people into positions, you expect them to master their jobs and report up to the top in well established lines of accountability. Scouts maintain their positions in an organization because they provide leadership with good information that they can trust.

I didn't say Chevy doesn't play a role in making decisions, I said he defines the need and provides the direction, and of course he gathers the information and makes the decision. The scouts are still the key figures in allowing him to do that however, I believe they are the most influential people when it comes to which players a team drafts, without their good information the GM doesn't have a very clear picture.

 

[KingBogo]

I didn't say Chevy doesn't play a role in making decisions, I said he defines the need and provides the direction, and of course he gathers the information and makes the decision. The scouts are still the key figures in allowing him to do that however, I believe they are the most influential people when it comes to which players a team drafts, without their good information the GM doesn't have a very clear picture.

The scouts are important employees that have specific jobs to do. My point is every large organization has professionals in place who are expected be masters of particular aspects of need for the organization. For example a CEO or Board Chair, would have less specific knowledge on certain things compared to lets say an engineer, architect, medical director etc. Those positions would be the experts in that defined role with reporting structures to the leadership group. A scouts job is to spend 100's of nights in hockey rinks across NA and Europe and compile information to be used by the organization. They would then report that information to the decision makers through an established structure and be available at certain times to discuss and analysis that information with leadership. Or to seek out additional/supporting information as directed. Ultimately, the person with the authority makes the final decisions. They will take the responsibility for mistakes and the public credit for success.

 

[White Out 403*]

The scouts are important employees that have specific jobs to do. My point is every large organization has professionals in place who are expected be masters of particular aspects of need for the organization. For example a CEO or Board Chair, would have less specific knowledge on certain things compared to lets say an engineer, architect, medical director etc. Those positions would be the experts in that defined role with reporting structures to the leadership group. A scouts job is to spend 100's of nights in hockey rinks across NA and Europe and compile information to be used by the organization. They would then report that information to the decision makers through an established structure and be available at certain times to discuss and analysis that information with leadership. Or to seek out additional/supporting information as directed. Ultimately, the person with the authority makes the final decisions. They will take the responsibility for mistakes and the public credit for success.

I think your comparison is flawed, and here's why (I'm also glad you brought up pro scouts).

The role of a GM has a lot of duties, but I think the generally accepted key roles of a gm as far as team building are:

1) Free agency acquisitions
2) Current player contract negotiations
3) Waiver wire acquisitions
4) Trades (player for player and picks)
5) Drafting

There's really no other way to build a team. This is it. My overall point that in team building, the GM has the least direct hands on work on #5. That' it. I find it amazing people would debate me so furiously on that, which, in my opinion, is self evident even us lay people outside the business.

Free agency involves a gm signing professional hockey players already in the business, although there are the rare occasions you can sign an undrafted youth or an ncaa player. For free agency moves GM's do have professional scouts to help.. but because the NHL is widely televised and there's 29 other teams, Chevy and other gms will often see players in person who they want to sign. There's tonnes of video readily available. Pro scouts help here but GM's will often see in person these players themselves and have a big role in evaluating. Chevys signing of Perrault is savvy not only because he listened to his pro scouts, but, also because he likely saw something he liked in him when the Jets played the Capitals as often as they did in the SE.

Current player negotations are almost exclusively the agent and Chevy 1 on 1, and are all on him. Disastrous re-signings like Pavelecs extension are all on him... in the same way a savvy re-signing like Andrew Ladd would be in his plus column.

Waiver wire signings are helped with pro scouts, but, again, like Free agency CHevy himself is much more hands on because he gets to see these guys in the NHL on a day to day basis. He would have to rely on his pro scout on this one for recommendations I think a little more because the guys going on the waiver wire likely aren't getting a lot of playing time.

Trades This one is 80% chevy. He has to broker a good deal. He has to target the right people with the help of pro and amateur scouts. But at the end of the day he is the one pulling the trigger on these deals, trying to manufacture value for our team. Being told who to trade for is one thing, being able to negotiate the deal is another

Drafting The least hands on. He creates a plan for his club, and tells scout what qualities he likes. He has a type of player in mind, but of course scouts are free to make recommendations (I assume) if they see someone who's an amazing player but doesn't quite fit chevys mold. Amateur scouting is all over the place... from the ncaa to the chl to europe. There's so many teams chevy can't possibly do it all himself.. he has to leave the talent analysis to the scouts.

When draft day comes he has a list of players and all the data, totally compiled by his scouts. He then makes decisions he feels are best... but make no mistake that data is compiled for him. It's by far, and I find it impossible to argue with a straight face, the least hands on duty of a GM.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

The scouts get 70% if blame or praise for a good job in my mind. Chevy of course makes the final call and makes the tough decisions.

But as far as gm responsibility goes... Signing free agents and trading and waiver wire... Drafting is the least hands on job of a gm. I'm unsure how that can be disputed.

I think you are misjudging the process a bit. The scouts gather all the information. They submit that information along with their assessments based on that information. So far that is all hands-on for the scouts. The GM then uses those assessments to make decisions. It is the GM who decides which attributes to emphasize both in general and specifically with each player. That is hands-on by him. He would be working pretty closely with the head scout and the AGM at that point but he is the one who makes the decision. Drafting is a team event but the GM is very much in charge of that team. It is his team. He hires the scouts and he decides how many scouts to have. But the biggest thing is those final decisions.

 

[White Out 403*]

I think you are misjudging the process a bit. The scouts gather all the information. They submit that information along with their assessments based on that information. So far that is all hands-on for the scouts. The GM then uses those assessments to make decisions. It is the GM who decides which attributes to emphasize both in general and specifically with each player. That is hands-on by him. He would be working pretty closely with the head scout and the AGM at that point but he is the one who makes the decision. Drafting is a team event but the GM is very much in charge of that team. It is his team. He hires the scouts and he decides how many scouts to have. But the biggest thing is those final decisions.

I disagree vehemently. His decision making is highly based on recommendations and information brought forward to him. I'm sure there's scouts who also stake their reputations on players too, to try and sway GM's. We read rumours like that all the time. Of course chevy has a big part in that, but how can my point be argued? Is it not the least hands on duty? I mean, yes or no?

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

One thing I think gets changed this summer is the goaltending tandem.

PoMo has zero confidence in Pavelec. None.

I can't imagine Maurice wanting to go into next season with Pavelec, even as a backup. I see some changes to our goaltending, for the start of next season. Especially if the last 14 games are poor.

Hutch is a very young goalie. He didn't have the opportunity to get his feet wet in the NHL. He's been thrust into a 'saviour' role by seasons end. Playoffs only with Hutch scenario. I believe the Jets would rather allow Hutch more time to develop his game and will look for a veteran guy in the summer to help divide the games next year.

Hellebuyck spends the year in the AHL, closely watched by Jets management. Chevy and PoMo talked about improving their defensive game before evaluating the goalies. I think the evaluation is complete. At least in PoMo's mind.

Agree with the gist of your post but Hutch is not "a very young goalie". He is 25, Pav is 27, 21/2 yrs apart. It is a mistake to think of him that way. They, or he need to figure out what went wrong with his game. I really have to wonder about the goalie coach. The longer he has a goalie the worse the goalie plays. I don't have any idea why but that is what appears to be happening. Maybe he gets them thinking too much, IDK but something went wrong. He comes up from the A playing like a ROY candidate and ends up playing like Pavelec. Something caused that.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I think your comparison is flawed, and here's why (I'm also glad you brought up pro scouts).

The role of a GM has a lot of duties, but I think the generally accepted key roles of a gm as far as team building are:

1) Free agency acquisitions
2) Current player contract negotiations
3) Waiver wire acquisitions
4) Trades (player for player and picks)
5) Drafting

There's really no other way to build a team. This is it. My overall point that in team building, the GM has the least direct hands on work on #5. That' it. I find it amazing people would debate me so furiously on that, which, in my opinion, is self evident even us lay people outside the business.

Free agency involves a gm signing professional hockey players already in the business, although there are the rare occasions you can sign an undrafted youth or an ncaa player. For free agency moves GM's do have professional scouts to help.. but because the NHL is widely televised and there's 29 other teams, Chevy and other gms will often see players in person who they want to sign. There's tonnes of video readily available. Pro scouts help here but GM's will often see in person these players themselves and have a big role in evaluating. Chevys signing of Perrault is savvy not only because he listened to his pro scouts, but, also because he likely saw something he liked in him when the Jets played the Capitals as often as they did in the SE.

Current player negotations are almost exclusively the agent and Chevy 1 on 1, and are all on him. Disastrous re-signings like Pavelecs extension are all on him... in the same way a savvy re-signing like Andrew Ladd would be in his plus column.

Waiver wire signings are helped with pro scouts, but, again, like Free agency CHevy himself is much more hands on because he gets to see these guys in the NHL on a day to day basis. He would have to rely on his pro scout on this one for recommendations I think a little more because the guys going on the waiver wire likely aren't getting a lot of playing time.

Trades This one is 80% chevy. He has to broker a good deal. He has to target the right people with the help of pro and amateur scouts. But at the end of the day he is the one pulling the trigger on these deals, trying to manufacture value for our team. Being told who to trade for is one thing, being able to negotiate the deal is another

Drafting The least hands on. He creates a plan for his club, and tells scout what qualities he likes. He has a type of player in mind, but of course scouts are free to make recommendations (I assume) if they see someone who's an amazing player but doesn't quite fit chevys mold. Amateur scouting is all over the place... from the ncaa to the chl to europe. There's so many teams chevy can't possibly do it all himself.. he has to leave the talent analysis to the scouts.

When draft day comes he has a list of players and all the data, totally compiled by his scouts. He then makes decisions he feels are best... but make no mistake that data is compiled for him. It's by far, and I find it impossible to argue with a straight face, the least hands on duty of a GM.

I don't entirely agree with your whole point but for the sake of discussion I will concede that drafting is the part where the GM is least hands on. So what? In this case getting your hands dirty is not the key that differentiates the successful drafting team from the unsuccessful drafting team. The scouts are data gatherers. The head scout, AGM and GM process all that data and make decisions based on it. Of those it is the GM who makes the final decisions. Good decisions = good drafting.

All GMs have plenty of data. We here have plenty of data. The biggest thing the pros have that we do not is the face to face interviews where they try to assess personality and character. That is hard to do because all the players have been schooled in what to say and how to say it. We (most of us) don't get to see these young players. If we do see them it is mostly on TV and it is pretty hard to evaluate based on that. We get information from others who have seen them though and that is just what the GMs do. The data gathering is the hands on part and I will suggest that there isn't a lot of difference in the data that one team has over another. Then there are the assessments of that data done by each scout. There are always multiple assessments of each player. The GM has to sift through them and I'm pretty sure there are often disagreements contained in the assessments. The GM has to decide which ones to accept and which ones to reject. And that is where the rubber meets the road. The GM is the one who does that.

 

[White Out 403*]

I don't entirely agree with your whole point but for the sake of discussion I will concede that drafting is the part where the GM is least hands on. So what?

That's all my point is. we can disagree on how involved chevy is with drafting, but as a starting point if we can agree that its the least hands on then at least you understand the lens thru which I judge our GM. His strongest team building attribute is the one which is least hands on. That's all im saying.

 

[KingBogo]

That's all my point is. we can disagree on how involved chevy is with drafting, but as a starting point if we can agree that its the least hands on then at least you understand the lens thru which I judge our GM. His strongest team building attribute is the one which is least hands on. That's all im saying.

But you really have no proof other than speculation. I originally compared a hockey organization to any other large business/organization and how accountability and reporting structure is likely to look like. Something I do have knowledge of. The Winnipeg Jets employ 56 people in their hockey operations department, 23 of which are scouts. All of these people would ultimately report to Chevy. Though only a handful would report directly to him. Most would report to someone in middle management type role that would report to Chevy. The Jets have a director of amateur scouting and a director of pro scouting. The rest of the scouts likely report to these 2 people who would then be responsible for compiling the information and report to Chevy. Most scouts would only be an expert in their level (pro, amateur, European) and would be limited by their assigned geographic area.

I guess you can argue Chevy is the least hands on, but his job requires he not sit and watch a couple 100 games a season compiling notes, taking to junior coaches, talking to parents, teachers etc. But any individual scout might only be hands on for 1 or 2 players in an organization at any one time where Chevy would have made the final decision on each and every one.

 

[White Out 403*]

I dont think the argument could be made that chevy is least hands on. Thats the fact.

Were just debating at this point % of blame and praise he would get. I dont care what the perception is... that's not my interest. If chevys the face of our scouting great, but I give credit to people who do the scouting and make recommendations. At best I give chevy 40% or less of the credit for our strong prospects. The rest belong to the scouting staff.

 

[KingBogo]

I dont think the argument could be made that chevy is least hands on. Thats the fact.

Were just debating at this point % of blame and praise he would get. I dont care what the perception is... that's not my interest. If chevys the face of our scouting great, but I give credit to people who do the scouting and make recommendations. At best I give chevy 40% or less of the credit for our strong prospects. The rest belong to the scouting staff.

So what scout gets credit for which prospect?

 

[White Out 403*]

btw Marcel Comeau, the director of amateur scouting, was an Atlanta hiring. Not a chevy one. Same with Mark Hillier, the next higher up in amateur scouting.

This is was Atlantas/Dudleys scouting staff and they've done the heavy lifting for Chevy. Thankfully he listened.

 

[White Out 403*]

So what scout gets credit for which prospect?

I dont have that information. Cant imagine you figured you would think I know that either.

 

[KingBogo]

I dont have that information. Cant imagine you figured you would think I know that either.

No I'm just playing now. We can agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I disagree vehemently. His decision making is highly based on recommendations and information brought forward to him. I'm sure there's scouts who also stake their reputations on players too, to try and sway GM's. We read rumours like that all the time. Of course chevy has a big part in that, but how can my point be argued? Is it not the least hands on duty? I mean, yes or no?

It is NOT!!!! It is ENTIRELY based on the recommendations and information brought forward to him. At least I certainly hope it is. That's how every successful decision maker in the world operates. Decisions aren't made in a vacuum. But Chevy is the decision maker. And i aolready conceded it is the least hands on duty but that is completely ******* irrelevant.

We are just going to have to agree to disagtree because I can't discuss this respectfully any further.

 

[Hawker14]

btw Marcel Comeau, the director of amateur scouting, was an Atlanta hiring. Not a chevy one. Same with Mark Hillier, the next higher up in amateur scouting.

This is was Atlantas/Dudleys scouting staff and they've done the heavy lifting for Chevy. Thankfully he listened.

No. they've done their job.

Chevy placed more importance on hockey IQ when evaluating and selecting players. The Thrashers had a different metric.

Neither Kane nor Bogosian can be considered creative, imo, although I'm a fan of both. But looking at Scheifele and Trouba, they see the game much better.

That's the difference, and why the Jets' have utilized amateur scouting more effectively

 

[Aavco Cup]

btw Marcel Comeau, the director of amateur scouting, was an Atlanta hiring. Not a chevy one. Same with Mark Hillier, the next higher up in amateur scouting.

This is was Atlantas/Dudleys scouting staff and they've done the heavy lifting for Chevy. Thankfully he listened.

The staff has doubled in size since the team moved.

 

[Whileee]

The staff has doubled in size since the team moved.

I really don't know why people keep ignoring this fact.....

The Jets have 15 amateur scouts. I remember a recent tweet from someone who remarked on how Jets scouts were everywhere.

The Thrashers (2010-11) had fewer amateur scouts (7) than they had owners (9).

http://www.nhl.com/thrashers/v2/ext/PDF/201011_Atlanta_Thrashers_Media_Guide.pdf

 

[Whileee]

I think your comparison is flawed, and here's why (I'm also glad you brought up pro scouts).

The role of a GM has a lot of duties, but I think the generally accepted key roles of a gm as far as team building are:

1) Free agency acquisitions
2) Current player contract negotiations
3) Waiver wire acquisitions
4) Trades (player for player and picks)
5) Drafting

There's really no other way to build a team. This is it. My overall point that in team building, the GM has the least direct hands on work on #5. That' it. I find it amazing people would debate me so furiously on that, which, in my opinion, is self evident even us lay people outside the business.

Free agency involves a gm signing professional hockey players already in the business, although there are the rare occasions you can sign an undrafted youth or an ncaa player. For free agency moves GM's do have professional scouts to help.. but because the NHL is widely televised and there's 29 other teams, Chevy and other gms will often see players in person who they want to sign. There's tonnes of video readily available. Pro scouts help here but GM's will often see in person these players themselves and have a big role in evaluating. Chevys signing of Perrault is savvy not only because he listened to his pro scouts, but, also because he likely saw something he liked in him when the Jets played the Capitals as often as they did in the SE.

Current player negotations are almost exclusively the agent and Chevy 1 on 1, and are all on him. Disastrous re-signings like Pavelecs extension are all on him... in the same way a savvy re-signing like Andrew Ladd would be in his plus column.

Waiver wire signings are helped with pro scouts, but, again, like Free agency CHevy himself is much more hands on because he gets to see these guys in the NHL on a day to day basis. He would have to rely on his pro scout on this one for recommendations I think a little more because the guys going on the waiver wire likely aren't getting a lot of playing time.

Trades This one is 80% chevy. He has to broker a good deal. He has to target the right people with the help of pro and amateur scouts. But at the end of the day he is the one pulling the trigger on these deals, trying to manufacture value for our team. Being told who to trade for is one thing, being able to negotiate the deal is another

Drafting The least hands on. He creates a plan for his club, and tells scout what qualities he likes. He has a type of player in mind, but of course scouts are free to make recommendations (I assume) if they see someone who's an amazing player but doesn't quite fit chevys mold. Amateur scouting is all over the place... from the ncaa to the chl to europe. There's so many teams chevy can't possibly do it all himself.. he has to leave the talent analysis to the scouts.

When draft day comes he has a list of players and all the data, totally compiled by his scouts. He then makes decisions he feels are best... but make no mistake that data is compiled for him. It's by far, and I find it impossible to argue with a straight face, the least hands on duty of a GM.

Scouts play a huge role in trades. Do you think that Chevy traded Kane / Bogo for Lemieux and Armia without getting a ton of input from his amateur and pro scouts? Same for Myers. I'm pretty sure he had a lot of input from his pro scouts.

Similarly, I'm pretty certain that a lot of the decisions about signings have a large input from the coaching staff, especially Maurice in the current scenario. Chevy explicitly said that he wanted input from Maurice on the current roster before making important long-term decisions. His decision to re-sign Stuart and Thorburn was almost certainly strongly influenced by Maurice. Similarly, I would bet that the decision to trade Kane and Bogo came with a lot of input from Maurice based on his assessment as their coach.

 

[Blue Shakehead]

I really don't know why people keep ignoring this fact.....

The Jets have 15 amateur scouts. I remember a recent tweet from someone who remarked on how Jets scouts were everywhere.

The Thrashers (2010-11) had fewer amateur scouts (7) than they had owners (9).

http://www.nhl.com/thrashers/v2/ext/PDF/201011_Atlanta_Thrashers_Media_Guide.pdf

That's weird. You'd think they'd cut amateur scouting staff if Chevy was personally scouting and drafting all the players.

 

[KingBogo]

That's weird. You'd think they'd cut amateur scouting staff if Chevy was personally scouting and drafting all the players.

Chevy is drafting them, and probably takes in the odd viewing of players that he has high on his board. But I'm also pretty sure the CEO of Ford doesn't spend his days tightening the lug nuts on pickups coming off the assembly line. Everyone in an organization has a job to do. All are important. Some carry more responsibility.

 

[surixon]

I disagree vehemently. His decision making is highly based on recommendations and information brought forward to him. I'm sure there's scouts who also stake their reputations on players too, to try and sway GM's. We read rumours like that all the time. Of course chevy has a big part in that, but how can my point be argued? Is it not the least hands on duty? I mean, yes or no?

You do realize what you are describing is how almost all executives at larger corporations act. They all make decisions based on recommendations. I don't expect my GM to be extensively in the field getting his hands dirty. I want my GM to oversee the big picture, put in place people he trusts and give them the resources necessary to carry out their roles. The GM is crucial because he sets the mandate and is in charge of resource allocation, both monetary as well labour. I think you greatly undersell how important his role is.

 

[Ducky10]

Everyone knows what a CEO or a GM is responsible for, none of these analogies has much to do with what is being said, I don't think anyone said Chevy isn't the ultimate decision maker in all of this and doesn't bear the most responsibility for success or failure.

But

The scouts are the ones responsible for the players that the GM selects, it is their work, insight and recommendation that the GM bases his decision on. The scouts influence carries the most weight, it's the nuts and bolts of the job (or lug nuts if you prefer).

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Everyone knows what a CEO or a GM is responsible for, none of these analogies has much to do with what is being said, I don't think anyone said Chevy isn't the ultimate decision maker in all of this and doesn't bear the most responsibility for success or failure.

But

The scouts are the ones responsible for the players that the GM selects, it is their work, insight and recommendation that the GM bases his decision on. The scouts influence carries the most weight with the GM, it's the nuts and bolts of the job (or lug nuts if you prefer).

It was the GM who decided which of Atlanta's scouts to keep and which ones to part with. It was the GM who decided to have twice as many amateur scouts. It was the GM who decided to make character a top priority. It was the GM who defined the type of player they are looking for. He then told the scouts to go out and find players of that type. It is the GM who listens to all the arguments among the scouts over which player to rank above which other players and makes the final decision.

 

[jetkarma*]

This is was Atlantas/Dudleys scouting staff and they've done the heavy lifting for Chevy. Thankfully he listened.

That is not accurate at all . Under Chevy's direction and influence , Winnipeg dramatically increased their scouting department and the money allocated to it.

Chevy mentioned he said to Chipman that he didn't view scouting as an expense and Chipman to his credit told him he agreed and that it would never be an issue for the cost involved.

When the lock out occurred many organizations pared down their scouting department , Winnipeg increased theirs , including Chevy being out and seeing tonnes of games in person . The comment he made was that no organization would prioritize scouting more than Winnipeg ( some may be equal but none more ) . Many independent scouts and hockey people have commented on how Winnipeg has people "everywhere" .

The heavy lifting has been done under Chevy's blueprint. Just this last year , when Chevy was at one of Ehler's games , he was asked why he was there , when he said it was to watch Ehlers , the comment was why? he won't last to your pick ... well maybe some other GM's needed to be at more games . Chevy goes to a lot of games , I don't know the exact breakdown but I would wager he sees more games in person than most GM's.

If anyone thinks this isn't Chevy's scouting staff and that he doesn't influence it dramatically or that he doesn't have final say for direction and selection they are quite simply wrong.