Confirmed with Link: Wade Allison new contract 2x $785k

[deadhead]

We should deliberately have bad players because 4th liners aren't as good as 1st liners, so why shoot higher?

Explain how you obtain 12 top 6 forwards and keep them under the cap?
So what do you do with bottom six talents?

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Explain how you obtain 12 top 6 forwards and keep them under the cap?
So what do you do with bottom six talents?

Yep, that's what he said.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Explain how you obtain 12 top 6 forwards and keep them under the cap?
So what do you do with bottom six talents?

Who said you need 12? You're strawmanning as usual because dealing honestly while defending this team is impossible

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Sam Gagner was a perfectly cromulent depth player. If you asked me to point to a guy who got an undeserved rep of being useless because he wasn't what he was supposed to be, that's the name I would give.

 

[deadhead]

Uh, not after he left Edmonton, and since they were terrible when he was there, how much of his scoring was stat padding on a bad team?
His only decent season was in CBJ under Torts in 2016-17.
After that, he bounced around for 4 years before a rebound with another bad team in Detroit in 2021-22.

 

[Curufinwe]

The Flyers have 10 forwards on the roster would not look out of place in a top 6 right now.

And that's while having $21m+ in cap space going to players who aren't going to play game 1.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Uh, not after he left Edmonton, and since they were terrible when he was there, how much of his scoring was stat padding on a bad team?
His only decent season was in CBJ under Torts in 2016-17.
After that, he bounced around for 4 years before a rebound with another bad team in Detroit in 2021-22.

View attachment 751065

Compared him to Deslauriers now.

 

[Curufinwe]

Uh, not after he left Edmonton, and since they were terrible when he was there, how much of his scoring was stat padding on a bad team?
His only decent season was in CBJ under Torts in 2016-17.

He had 41 points (29 ES, 12 PP) in Arizona just two years before having 50 (32 ES, 18PP) in CBJ. That's only a 9 point difference and 6 of these points were on the PP which had more talent in Columbus than Arizona.

You're unbelievably bad at this. And you're getting worse as you get more and more desperate..

 

[deadhead]

He had 41 points (29 ES, 12 PP) in Arizona just two years before having 50 (32 ES, 18PP) in CBJ. That's only a 9 point difference and 6 of these points were on the PP which had more talent in Columbus than Arizona.

You're unbelievably bad at this. And you're getting worse as you get more and more desperate..

I ignore PP scoring b/c it's so variable and so dependent on usage.
ES scoring gives you a sense of production and usage.

And he was a bad defensive player most of his career, so if he's scoring at an average rate for a middle six forward, he's a below average player in terms of value.

He's a perfect example of what I was talking about, a player who isn't good enough to outscore his mistakes, but as a big scorer at lower levels never developed decent defensive fundamentals.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

I too like to ignore context that proves my stances to be erroneous.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Uh, not after he left Edmonton, and since they were terrible when he was there, how much of his scoring was stat padding on a bad team?
His only decent season was in CBJ under Torts in 2016-17.
After that, he bounced around for 4 years before a rebound with another bad team in Detroit in 2021-22.

View attachment 751065

I really don’t want to clog up the thread with an in-depth Sam Gagner discussion because no one cares.

But I am going to assume we can agree that if he’s the example I would use, I know what his metrics look like from a variety of sources over a large period of time. There’s some good and some bad in there. That’s what depth players are.

 

[Curufinwe]

I ignore PP scoring b/c it's so variable and so dependent on usage.
ES scoring gives you a sense of production and usage.

So why was scoring 32 ESP in CBJ "decent", but scoring 29 ESP in Arizona was not "decent"?

Especially since in Arizona he led the team in ES scoring.

His only decent season was in CBJ under Torts in 2016-17.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

 

[deadhead]

I too like to ignore context that proves my stances to be erroneous.

We know.

 

[Curufinwe]

That's an insane level of smugness from someone who confidently claimed that Attard was going to replace Ristolainen in the Flyers top 4 by January.

January, 2023.

 

[deadhead]

So why was scoring 32 ESP in CBJ "decent", but scoring 29 ESP in Arizona was not "decent"?

Especially since in Arizona he led the team in ES scoring.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Arizona 14:13 xGF 48.40%, xGFrel +1.29, pp/60: 1.41
CBJ 10:37 xGF 55.63%, xGFrel, +6.10, pp/60: 2.02 [career high]

What Torts did is use Gagner as he should have been used, in a sheltered role focused on offense.
He was useful only if you recognized his limitations and worked around them.

 

[Cody Webster]

So why was scoring 32 ESP in CBJ "decent", but scoring 29 ESP in Arizona was not "decent"?

Especially since in Arizona he led the team in ES scoring.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Because the god almighty Torts brought out the best in him because Torts is the best coach in NHL History, duh

 

[deadhead]

Because the god almighty Torts brought out the best in him because Torts is the best coach in NHL History, duh

Because smart coaches recognize player limitations (even if fans don't) and try to use them in a way to hide those limitations. Torts has his faults, but he's a smart HC.

Gagner was a poor defensive player, who could give you some offense in short bursts. Play him major minutes and his flaws became self-evident.

Deslauriers is an energy guy with a limited skill set, there's a reason why he average 9 minutes at ES last season while every young forward not named Laczynski (who was worse than Deslauriers last season) played significantly more.

Sometimes you're forced to play players more than you should, but usually it's a HC who overestimates a player's talent and fit. Look for Poehling and Hathaway to get extra shifts with Laughton while Deslauriers minutes are limited.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I ignore PP scoring b/c it's so variable and so dependent on usage.
ES scoring gives you a sense of production and usage.

And he was a bad defensive player most of his career, so if he's scoring at an average rate for a middle six forward, he's a below average player in terms of value.

He's a perfect example of what I was talking about, a player who isn't good enough to outscore his mistakes, but as a big scorer at lower levels never developed decent defensive fundamentals.

PP points count.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Because smart coaches recognize player limitations (even if fans don't) and try to use them in a way to hide those limitations. Torts has his faults, but he's a smart HC.

Gagner was a poor defensive player, who could give you some offense in short bursts. Play him major minutes and his flaws became self-evident.

Deslauriers is an energy guy with a limited skill set, there's a reason why he average 9 minutes at ES last season while every young forward not named Laczynski (who was worse than Deslauriers last season) played significantly more.

Sometimes you're forced to play players more than you should, but usually it's a HC who overestimates a player's talent and fit. Look for Poehling and Hathaway to get extra shifts with Laughton while Deslauriers minutes are limited.

His usage of Cates debunks that post.

 

[deadhead]

His usage of Cates debunks that post.

Really? You had another center you could match against opponent's top lines?

Cates held his own defensively against the best the NHL had to offer, and that allowed Frost to get easier matchups.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Really? You had another center you could match against opponent's top lines?

Cates held his own defensively against the best the NHL had to offer, and that allowed Frost to get easier matchups.

Sure. Frost. Who also played against top lines too, because that's how hockey works. And he isn't anywhere near the defensive void you pretend he is because Tortorella is stupid and you have to go along with it.

Nothing screams "recognizing a players limits" quite like using a purely defensive player with minimal offensive capabilities in an offensive role. Especially considering this team's obsession with roles.

 

[deadhead]

Last 56 games:
Frost xGF/60: 2.58, GF/60: 3.08, pp/60: 2.43, SH% 15.56
Cates xGF/60: 2.51, GF/60: 2.50, pp/60: 1.56, SH% 9.46

 

[deadhead]

Problem with JFresh is the 3 year average obscures improvement, but the yearly graphs show that Frost's performance last year has been exaggerated by some. The same unsustainable Sh% that people used to knock Laughton's big season applies to Frost last year.

Both players are promising but still ???
We'll see this year if they can sustain over a full season, whether they show improvement, whether they get exposed.
But there is zero evidence that supports Frost > Cates.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Problem with JFresh is the 3 year average obscures improvement, but the yearly graphs show that Frost's performance last year has been exaggerated by some. The same unsustainable Sh% that people used to knock Laughton's big season applies to Frost last year.

Both players are promising but still ???
We'll see this year if they can sustain over a full season, whether they show improvement, whether they get exposed.
But there is zero evidence that supports Frost > Cates.

Oh you mean spending a good chunk of the year (including well into that sample size) getting shit usage can impact a player? You don't say.

You're a masterclass in using stats to lie instead of using them to inform.