Player Discussion Vincent Trocheck

[bhamill]

You're missing my point. I don't have an issue with having players on the roster that will downturn or that are older. My issue is having nearly half your cap tied up into a small group of them that very well may fall off within a year or two of each other rather than them being staggered out better. We've gone down that road before and it eventually led to the letter and a reboot of the organization bc there was no good way out of the mess.

I see what you are saying. We simply have different views. You’re making doomsday assumptions on the relative declines of several very different players. You’re entitled to your opinion. You’re not entitled to anyone agreeing. Hahah. And what I was assessing was your contention about Trocheck and his contract. Which I still feel is perfectly fine and easily moved by the time we may want to.

 

[eco's bones]

Good teams have multilevel approaches. Veterans do tend to decline (not all) anywhere towards their late 20's to mid 30's but they are also essential to stability in the locker room and often at least most of the time your veteran core is where much of any team's production comes from.

The Rangers are lucky to have two elite still very young players in Igor and Fox and some of the best young talent in the league like Lafreniere, Kakko and Miller who have significant future in front of them....that is another level but also the Rangers still have a number of really good younger prospects as well and as long as they can backlog that with drafts in the future that is another level. Giving up one of them in Nils for what is likely to be a 11 to 20 pick in what looks to be a very strong 2023 draft should be a huge help with that.

But anyway it's not one level that has to be nurtured it's all of them if we want real long term success.

 

[bhamill]

Good teams have multilevel approaches. Veterans do tend to decline (not all) anywhere towards their late 20's to mid 30's but they are also essential to stability in the locker room and often at least most of the time your veteran core is where much of any team's production comes from.

The Rangers are lucky to have two elite still very young players in Igor and Fox and some of the best young talent in the league like Lafreniere, Kakko and Miller who have significant future in front of them....that is another level but also the Rangers still have a number of really good younger prospects as well and as long as they can backlog that with drafts in the future that is another level. Giving up one of them in Nils for what is likely to be a 11 to 20 pick in what looks to be a very strong 2023 draft should be a huge help with that.

But anyway it's not one level that has to be nurtured it's all of them if we want real long term success.

Agreed.

 

[bleedblue94]

I see what you are saying. We simply have different views. You’re making doomsday assumptions on the relative declines of several very different players. You’re entitled to your opinion. You’re not entitled to anyone agreeing. Hahah. And what I was assessing was your contention about Trocheck and his contract. Which I still feel is perfectly fine and easily moved by the time we may want to.

i think the other issue is that i dont view vinny in general as many do here. when everything is right i see him as a 2c on an average team, but as i have said from the start on a legit contender that is absolutely going for it and will have a deep run he is best served as an elite 3c. the way we are constructed and now with the lack of cap we wont have that luxury to push him down the lineup later in the year and he will need to be at his absolute best to justify his spot, but for how long can that go? this signing was built around a compliment for panarin but i see a significant decline in panarin's game beyond the points (his 5v5 game has evolved to shit) and signing vinny to compliment panarin at 5v5 to me is borderline stupid. vinny isnt fixing panarin and thrusting him into a roll to makeup for the deficiencies there long term is asking for issues. people earlier argued with me of how can i have that view of vinny when he was the 2c for the canes and they were absolutely contenders last year, and to that I ask what did he do in the playoffs, was he even noticeable in the nyr series (he had 1 good game out of 7), did the canes want to keep him (no, they took on patches for more money). I just think people are happy that vinny in many ways is the anti strome, but just bc he is the opposite in many ways of a player many of us hated that doesnt mean he isnt being miscast in the position he is being pushed into.

 

[bleedblue94]

Why is it assumed that the so called aging core (Mika/Kreider/Trouba/Panarin) is going to fall off a cliff all of a sudden? 3 are coming off excellent/career years and Panarin was off but still produced at an elite level. It’s not like we haven’t seen important players around the league succeed into their mid to late 30s.

first, trouba is not one of the players i am talking about, he is still younger than most realize. swap vinny out for trouba in your grouping.

what you said may be true, but i think some here might be missing the point that at this time last year people thought kreider was an anchor and they wanted him moved, then he has an anomaly of a year that he will most likely never be repeated and suddenly he is being grouped and talked about as a player that can "produce at an elite level." one season has somehow rewritten the views of people for kreider who this time last year was an anchor and a waste of 6.5m

i LOVE mika, but he will be 30 this season and STARTING an 8 year contract. this is literally what we did with henke, and by the halfway point people were smashing the panic button. somehow we lucked out and igor stepped in and gave an elc starter to offset the big money and buyout for henke, but I dont think it is wise to bank of having a 1c step in here on an elc to offset the dwindling production that we will see in 3-4 years with mika.

at the same time panarin is going to turn into a powerplay specialist that is going to be making 11.6m, then add vinny. all of these separate wouldnt be even the slightest concern to me, and really even two or three of them you can manage down the road through various options, but having four of these guys lined up for diminished production at around the same time when they eat up 39.1% of the cap is alarming, especially when you know you will need to shake money loose soon for igor, laffy, and miller who right now account for only 9.1% of the cap. those three players are going to get paid handsomely very soon and when that happens there will be no wiggle room anywhere. people keep talking about backfilling our lineup with young elc players but then also talk about paying teams to take these contracts in the back half so we can ditch them. well if you are paying teams to take your contracts then you arent going to have the assets to roll in effective young elc nhlers that can contribute. saying all of that drury has done a great job so far of refilling his assets when he spends a bunch, but the group of these four players just makes me uncomfortable. as i said in another post, maybe a part of it is that i view vinny differently than others and think the expectations around here for him are off simply bc he is the anti strome player, but i see three of those four players in that group becoming third liners in the not too distant future and with what they are getting paid that is alarming.

 

[duhmetreE]

Predicted 40 goals Kreider.

It moves to Trocheck this season.

Playing with Panarin and most likely getting PP1 time. He will be getting a lot of looks.... more than he's had in his career in any given season..

 

[NYR Viper]

Beyond the points and stats, his tenacity on the puck all over the ice will be something the team needs more of

 

[bhamill]

i think the other issue is that i dont view vinny in general as many do here. when everything is right i see him as a 2c on an average team, but as i have said from the start on a legit contender that is absolutely going for it and will have a deep run he is best served as an elite 3c. the way we are constructed and now with the lack of cap we wont have that luxury to push him down the lineup later in the year and he will need to be at his absolute best to justify his spot, but for how long can that go? this signing was built around a compliment for panarin but i see a significant decline in panarin's game beyond the points (his 5v5 game has evolved to shit) and signing vinny to compliment panarin at 5v5 to me is borderline stupid. vinny isnt fixing panarin and thrusting him into a roll to makeup for the deficiencies there long term is asking for issues. people earlier argued with me of how can i have that view of vinny when he was the 2c for the canes and they were absolutely contenders last year, and to that I ask what did he do in the playoffs, was he even noticeable in the nyr series (he had 1 good game out of 7), did the canes want to keep him (no, they took on patches for more money). I just think people are happy that vinny in many ways is the anti strome, but just bc he is the opposite in many ways of a player many of us hated that doesnt mean he isnt being miscast in the position he is being pushed into.

Again, you are predicating this all on assumptions you are making and subjective judgements... which is fine as long as you don't expect me to agree with you. In my view if Chytil forces Vinny to the 3rd, that's a good problem, and unless he falls off a cliff his contract will be easily moved in '25.

 

[bleedblue94]

Again, you are predicating this all on assumptions you are making and subjective judgements... which is fine as long as you don't expect me to agree with you. In my view if Chytil forces Vinny to the 3rd, that's a good problem, and unless he falls off a cliff his contract will be easily moved in '25.

okay, so then we disagree about both chytil and vinny. let's hope i am wrong and you are right!

 

[bhamill]

okay, so then we disagree about both chytil and vinny. let's hope i am wrong and you are right!

Going to be fun finding out, my friend!

 

[will1066]

Going to be fun finding out, my friend!

It's gonna be over the top.

 

[bleedblue94]

Going to be fun finding out, my friend!

the bottom line is that even if i am right, i dont give two shits about it if the team can catch lightning in a bottle and get to the finals in the next two years. that is really the window that i see here for them, maybe 3. if they give us that kind of run it is worth it. if they win it is absolutely worth whatever pain comes afterwards. i remember a couple years ago people here talking about nyr winning "at least" 2 or 3 cups in the next decade, so out of touch with what it takes and how much luck you need for it to happen just once.

 

[Synergy27]

i think the other issue is that i dont view vinny in general as many do here. when everything is right i see him as a 2c on an average team, but as i have said from the start on a legit contender that is absolutely going for it and will have a deep run he is best served as an elite 3c.

What are you basing this on? How is this even remotely realistic in a salary cap league? Who was the 3C on recent Cup teams? Certainly not a player as good as Trocheck.

 

[Rangers in 7]

What are you basing this on? How is this even remotely realistic in a salary cap league? Who was the 3C on recent Cup teams? Certainly not a player as good as Trocheck.

This^^^^

Not one third line center in the league is better than trocheck.

 

[McRanger92]

first, trouba is not one of the players i am talking about, he is still younger than most realize. swap vinny out for trouba in your grouping.

what you said may be true, but i think some here might be missing the point that at this time last year people thought kreider was an anchor and they wanted him moved, then he has an anomaly of a year that he will most likely never be repeated and suddenly he is being grouped and talked about as a player that can "produce at an elite level." one season has somehow rewritten the views of people for kreider who this time last year was an anchor and a waste of 6.5m

i LOVE mika, but he will be 30 this season and STARTING an 8 year contract. this is literally what we did with henke, and by the halfway point people were smashing the panic button. somehow we lucked out and igor stepped in and gave an elc starter to offset the big money and buyout for henke, but I dont think it is wise to bank of having a 1c step in here on an elc to offset the dwindling production that we will see in 3-4 years with mika.

at the same time panarin is going to turn into a powerplay specialist that is going to be making 11.6m, then add vinny. all of these separate wouldnt be even the slightest concern to me, and really even two or three of them you can manage down the road through various options, but having four of these guys lined up for diminished production at around the same time when they eat up 39.1% of the cap is alarming, especially when you know you will need to shake money loose soon for igor, laffy, and miller who right now account for only 9.1% of the cap. those three players are going to get paid handsomely very soon and when that happens there will be no wiggle room anywhere. people keep talking about backfilling our lineup with young elc players but then also talk about paying teams to take these contracts in the back half so we can ditch them. well if you are paying teams to take your contracts then you arent going to have the assets to roll in effective young elc nhlers that can contribute. saying all of that drury has done a great job so far of refilling his assets when he spends a bunch, but the group of these four players just makes me uncomfortable. as i said in another post, maybe a part of it is that i view vinny differently than others and think the expectations around here for him are off simply bc he is the anti strome player, but i see three of those four players in that group becoming third liners in the not too distant future and with what they are getting paid that is alarming.

That is certainly the bear case. I’m a little more bullish personally.

This^^^^

Not one third line center in the league is better than trocheck.

Trocheck is the quintessential 2C. Plays all 3 zones/PP/PK, with potential for 30 goals and 60-70 points. Can also play with skilled players and protects us in the case of a Mika injury

 

[GregMcKegg]

Trocheck is the quintessential 2C. Plays all 3 zones/PP/PK, with potential for 30 goals and 60-70 points. Can also play with skilled players and protects us in the case of a Mika injury

Yup can't ask for much more in a 2C. Also good at faceoffs which is huge. I think he's going to mesh real well with Panarin.

 

[McRanger92]

Yup can't ask for much more in a 2C. Also good at faceoffs which is huge. I think he's going to mesh real well with Panarin.

I’m very interested to see how Panarin-Trocheck-Kravtsov looks. Hopefully we see them Monday

 

[The S5]

first, trouba is not one of the players i am talking about, he is still younger than most realize. swap vinny out for trouba in your grouping.

what you said may be true, but i think some here might be missing the point that at this time last year people thought kreider was an anchor and they wanted him moved, then he has an anomaly of a year that he will most likely never be repeated and suddenly he is being grouped and talked about as a player that can "produce at an elite level." one season has somehow rewritten the views of people for kreider who this time last year was an anchor and a waste of 6.5m

i LOVE mika, but he will be 30 this season and STARTING an 8 year contract. this is literally what we did with henke, and by the halfway point people were smashing the panic button. somehow we lucked out and igor stepped in and gave an elc starter to offset the big money and buyout for henke, but I dont think it is wise to bank of having a 1c step in here on an elc to offset the dwindling production that we will see in 3-4 years with mika.

at the same time panarin is going to turn into a powerplay specialist that is going to be making 11.6m, then add vinny. all of these separate wouldnt be even the slightest concern to me, and really even two or three of them you can manage down the road through various options, but having four of these guys lined up for diminished production at around the same time when they eat up 39.1% of the cap is alarming, especially when you know you will need to shake money loose soon for igor, laffy, and miller who right now account for only 9.1% of the cap. those three players are going to get paid handsomely very soon and when that happens there will be no wiggle room anywhere. people keep talking about backfilling our lineup with young elc players but then also talk about paying teams to take these contracts in the back half so we can ditch them. well if you are paying teams to take your contracts then you arent going to have the assets to roll in effective young elc nhlers that can contribute. saying all of that drury has done a great job so far of refilling his assets when he spends a bunch, but the group of these four players just makes me uncomfortable. as i said in another post, maybe a part of it is that i view vinny differently than others and think the expectations around here for him are off simply bc he is the anti strome player, but i see three of those four players in that group becoming third liners in the not too distant future and with what they are getting paid that is alarming.

The idea of is to win now, without decimating the future. There may be some contracts that don't age well, but that's the nature of the salary cap.
As far a Tro, he will be well received because he is a hard nosed player with a bit of skill. He doesn't rely on speed or elite puck skills to be effective, so his eventual decline shouldn't be very severe. Depending on who he ends up playing with, he could have a career year.

 

[GENESISPuck94]

Lafreniere and Kakko becoming what they're capable of becoming puts us over the top. Rangers won't win a Cup before then.

 

[bleedblue94]

What are you basing this on? How is this even remotely realistic in a salary cap league? Who was the 3C on recent Cup teams? Certainly not a player as good as Trocheck.

I don't think trocheck is as good as most here do. I like him in a certain role but not in the type that people here seem to be expecting.

i voiced the same opinion in the signing thread and people had the same reaction. I posted information in there. I'm not digging around for it again. I doubt you care as well. I hope I'm wrong but I think he is going to fall below expectations around here. Maybe not this year but I fear that quickly we will be looking for a top 6 center again. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[bleedblue94]

The idea of is to win now, without decimating the future. There may be some contracts that don't age well, but that's the nature of the salary cap.
As far a Tro, he will be well received because he is a hard nosed player with a bit of skill. He doesn't rely on speed or elite puck skills to be effective, so his eventual decline shouldn't be very severe. Depending on who he ends up playing with, he could have a career year.

I mean we all know he is playing with bread so there's no surprise. This team is already below par for skating and speed so add another average skater, yay. I love his tenacity on the pick but it's not going to age well. As for concerns about the contract I wouldn't care so much if it was just Vinny and maybe 1 or 2 other players but we are going to have 4 probably hit decline in a group. That's going to be brutal. It's funny reading the comment that the goal is to win right now, that one magical playoff run sure shifted things from prolonged and sustainable contention to going for it now ha

 

[The S5]

I mean we all know he is playing with bread so there's no surprise. This team is already below par for skating and speed so add another average skater, yay. I love his tenacity on the pick but it's not going to age well. As for concerns about the contract I wouldn't care so much if it was just Vinny and maybe 1 or 2 other players but we are going to have 4 probably hit decline in a group. That's going to be brutal. It's funny reading the comment that the goal is to win right now, that one magical playoff run sure shifted things from prolonged and sustainable contention to going for it now ha

Lot's of speculation here. You have no idea these contracts will age.
This team didn't lose to Tampa because of lack of speed.
Trocheck helps this team over the next few years without a doubt. Any speculation regarding him, or the team beyond that is way above your pay grade.

 

[Levitate]

I mean we all know he is playing with bread so there's no surprise. This team is already below par for skating and speed so add another average skater, yay. I love his tenacity on the pick but it's not going to age well. As for concerns about the contract I wouldn't care so much if it was just Vinny and maybe 1 or 2 other players but we are going to have 4 probably hit decline in a group. That's going to be brutal. It's funny reading the comment that the goal is to win right now, that one magical playoff run sure shifted things from prolonged and sustainable contention to going for it now ha

I don't think that "one magical run" pushed them to going for it with Trocheck...Gorton and JD were fired at least partly because Sather/Dolan didn't feel like they were pushing to get the most out of the talent on the roster and that the team was better than they had shown recently. The idea with Drury coming in and hiring a new coach and making some changes was to push this team from rebuilding into contending and that was done before the "magical playoff run"

And...it's what you have to do. If the Rangers don't sign Zibanejad they're basically putting themselves back at square one in a rebuild in a lot of ways because they had no top center in the prospct pool and there were no top centers coming available that were younger/better

Sather/Drury looked at the roster built with the talent it had and said "we should be competing" and so they've positioned the team to do so. This is most definitely their best window for the foreseeable future....you can't just put off trying for a cup until you magically draft all the players you need and develop them and somehow still have them on amazing contract deals

With all that in mind, I'm fine with Trochek as 2C for the price. I think the Rangers will have to find a way to navigate some contracts if the NHL doesn't let the cap go up a bunch in 2024 but I'm sure they're thinking they'll cross that bridge when they get to it.

 

[bleedblue94]

Lot's of speculation here. You have no idea these contracts will age.
This team didn't lose to Tampa because of lack of speed.
Trocheck helps this team over the next few years without a doubt. Any speculation regarding him, or the team beyond that is way above your pay grade.

You're posting on a message board that is based on opinion and essentially telling me that your speculation is more creditable then my speculation, except my concerns about these kinds of contracts aging poorly has literally years of history to support my stance.

 

[bleedblue94]

I don't think that "one magical run" pushed them to going for it with Trocheck...Gorton and JD were fired at least partly because Sather/Dolan didn't feel like they were pushing to get the most out of the talent on the roster and that the team was better than they had shown recently. The idea with Drury coming in and hiring a new coach and making some changes was to push this team from rebuilding into contending and that was done before the "magical playoff run"

And...it's what you have to do. If the Rangers don't sign Zibanejad they're basically putting themselves back at square one in a rebuild in a lot of ways because they had no top center in the prospct pool and there were no top centers coming available that were younger/better

Sather/Drury looked at the roster built with the talent it had and said "we should be competing" and so they've positioned the team to do so. This is most definitely their best window for the foreseeable future....you can't just put off trying for a cup until you magically draft all the players you need and develop them and somehow still have them on amazing contract deals

With all that in mind, I'm fine with Trochek as 2C for the price. I think the Rangers will have to find a way to navigate some contracts if the NHL doesn't let the cap go up a bunch in 2024 but I'm sure they're thinking they'll cross that bridge when they get to it.

The expectation was to make the playoffs and contend a bit. Let's be serious, if pitt has even NHL average goaltending we don't win that series. Getting to game 6 of the conference finals was a magical run that they had no business making, but it was invaluable to the youth of the team.

I did not criticize sign zib so I don't know why you're defending it like I did. Of course they had to sign zib, and his contract is fine.

I think you're missing my point. Im not advocating against signing anyone to a long term deal in their late 20s. I said repeatedly that I am fine with 2 or 3 of those kind of deals, but adding a 4th with what we have coming in the next couple of years I'm terms of contracts that will be due is handcuffing ourselves, and you're coming into this kind of late bc what I was arguing against was people either saying we can just dump Vinny's contract elsewhere in a couple years or buy him out (both bad things to count on), or saying that the cap rising will lessen the contract issues, but the cap is going to go up about 10m if it's one shot or two years of 5m each. Either way that really isn't a lot of money in the grand scheme of things when it starts to get distributed. Carrying Kreider, panarin, Vinny, and zib at over 39% of the team cap is dangerous given the term remaining and their age mixed with the money that the team needs to shake loose sooner rather than later. Everyone talks about laffy needing a contract but I don't think most people are processing what Miller is going to command if his offense even mildly develops. I've been saying for awhile he has hedman lite tools, and while he will never be hedman he very well may develop into a 40-50pt horse of a defenseman which is going to be VERY expensive.