[VIDEO] Wayne Gretzky: Legends Series Ep.1 (1985): A Look At What Made Him Great (17 G, 47 P, 18 GP)

[authentic]

I have no idea what you just said. No kidding, they had their peaks at different times.

Very well then, stay deluded.

 

[authentic]

I have a tough time believing Jagr was better in his 40’s a few years ago than he was at 20 in 92.

Lol he was. He wasn't better than at his peak though, but he also wasn't nearly as dominant so.

 

[authentic]

But you have to allow the pendulum to swing the other way as well, it only wings one way for you.

Are hockey players better because of when they were born, having all the facts about nutrition, having all of the programs growing up to help you polish your skill set, modern equipment that is so much lighter (even for youths), and having more stars to draw inspiration from? Its not as simple as 'oh, if they went back today they'd be better'.

Seriously, if I went back in time I could teach Da Vinci quite a bit about electricity and flight, that doesn't make me smarter. But what could Da Vinci accomplish today with all of the available resources? People today aren't necessarily smarter than they were 30 or 100 years ago, its just that the world is older so there is more knowledge available. Conversely, what could Gretzky accomplish if he grew up today with all of the modern training and equipment, nutrition, no red line, no hooking, a less physical NHL etc...he would be far and away the best player.

For the 1000th time I know it's not that simple, I only say it because many people actually still believe Gretzky would be better just as he was. I don't for one minute think it's a fair comparison.

Also you say this as if the NHL hasn't been much harder to score in than the 80s for 25 years now. Also using yourself as an example is a bit different than using current people who are the top of their field. Like for example there are players not in the NHL who would score more than Gretzky back then but it's obvious they aren't as innately talented. It is however not quite as obvious with Crosby, Ovechkin and McDavid, but also very obvious they are better hockey players with all their advantages (which somehow most on here apparently don't realize).

 

[Aceboogie]

I have a tough time believing Jagr was better in his 40’s a few years ago than he was at 20 in 92.

Thats not what I meant. The majority of 18/19/20 YOs coming into the NHL today are better than those 20 years ago. Sames goes for 80s young layers vs young players from the 60s and so on.

 

[authentic]

I agree that it showcases a lot of his behaviours and if you made the video yourself, well done! If not, thanks for posting. I love watching these old clips. The issue however, is that HF-boards outside of the history forum consists of a lot of 15-25year olds (and many older as well) who simply can't isolate talent/skills etc from a time period. They are also so used to high quality highlightreels that they can't appreciate one that includes mistakes and faulty passes.

For this reason, I think a video showing what made Gretzky so great has to be a bit more modern. Perhaps the 14 minute highlight reel of all Gretzky's and Lemieux's points from Canada Cup 87. It's on youtube for people to see. I think it's just easier to digest for the more modern fans. There's also the LA Kings vs Toronto conference final from 1993, where a 32 year old Wayne completely dominates in a more modern setting.

There are some great games from the early 80's, and they sure are fast at times. But this one in particular looks very sloppy even by the old standards imo. It might very well be due to the fact it's the finals after a long long season.

I've been watching hockey since 1992 and I own the 87 Canada Cup DVDs, doesn't change a single thing I said.

 

[authentic]

Not really, Wayne shoots left.

You know, its crazy to think about the resources available to kids growing up in the 60s wanting to be hockey players compared to what's available in the 2000's. There are so many more opportunities and avenues that allow one to improve. 15 year old hockey players are much better athletes than 15 year olds back in the day because of it.

Seriously, 15 year old McDavid was a faster and more skilled hockey player than anyone in the 80s.

 

[authentic]

How about October 1997?:

Lol no one is saying he wasn't great, we're saying he wasn't as good as the best players today, which he clearly wasn't.

 

[Minar]

A lot of the guys in the league in the 80s were legitimately minor league caliber players. They were just allowing in Euros to the NHL, so a lot of depth players in the 80s were North Americans who would soon be out of a job once much better players came in from other countries. This is something not talked about that much

It was also much worse in pre 80s hockey (60s/70s), as you had next to no foreign players, and even Americans were few and far between. So it was mostly Canadian players only

Ofcourse top players from 2000s till now wont be outscoring their companions by the similar gaps. They are competing against much better players that have come in from Russia/Euro leagues. What does the top scorers list look like without foreign players. No Draisaitl/Kucherov/Panarin/Pastranak/Malkin etc

There were euros in the league in the 80s including kurri who was on Gretzky's line. And none of them came close to scoring the amount of points Gretzky did. Then later in the 90s when Gretzky was getting old and struggled with injuries there were many young talented Europeans in the league. And he still stacked up against them very well.

 

[Beukeboom]

A lot of the guys in the league in the 80s were legitimately minor league caliber players. They were just allowing in Euros to the NHL, so a lot of depth players in the 80s were North Americans who would soon be out of a job once much better players came in from other countries. This is something not talked about that much

It was also much worse in pre 80s hockey (60s/70s), as you had next to no foreign players, and even Americans were few and far between. So it was mostly Canadian players only

Ofcourse top players from 2000s till now wont be outscoring their companions by the similar gaps. They are competing against much better players that have come in from Russia/Euro leagues. What does the top scorers list look like without foreign players. No Draisaitl/Kucherov/Panarin/Pastranak/Malkin etc

Then why did Lemieux dominate just as much in 95-96 as he did in the end of the 80's (except over Gretzky)? 95-96 was peak time for some of the best europeans ever such as Jagr, Forsberg, Fedorov, Bure and I could go on forever. How come not a single one of them could come remotely close to him? We are talking about Jagr who had 123 points the year Crosby and Ovie were rookies, and I don't think he peaked at 33?

Or how come a 33 year old broken down Wayne could win the Art in 93-94 over these super talanted Europeans? Were Selanne, Bure, Fedorov, Jagr and the guys letting an "old" man win with a 8-9 % margin just to be polite?

 

[The Panther]

This "fetishization" as the noble European player as the peak of hockey evolution can get out of hand. Certainly the best Soviet players of the 70s/80s were on par with the best Canadian players of the same period, but I highly doubt the same could be said of any other European country at that time, and not even of not-elite Soviet players. The Red Army team was incredibly dominant, but only against really weak Euro competition.

2 of the top 3 scorers of the NHL in the 1980s were Europeans. The first All-Star Europeans in the NHL were in the 70s (including the Maple Leafs' co-best player), not the 80s. (Not to mention a bunch of Europeans who played in the WHA in the 70s, which, by consensus, was weaker than the NHL.) NHL Quebec's entire 1st line (of Czechs) was about 14 years before the "Russian Five" in Detroit. The NHL's third leading scorer was a Swede in 1980-81, and the second-leader was a Finn in 1984-85 and 1986-87. Pelle Lindberg (Sweden) was an NHL All-Star goalie in 1982-83, and an All-Star and Cup Finalist in '85. Speaking of 1985, that year's Finals (highlighted on page one of this thread) featured:
- Jari Kurri (Finland)
- Willy Lindstrom (Sweden)
- Jaroslav Pouzar (Czech)
- Esa Tikkanen (Finland)
- Ilkka Sinisalo (Finland)
- Miroslav Dvorak (Czech)
- Thomas Eriksson (Sweden)
- Pelle Lindbergh (Sweden)

So, can we stop with the "no Europeans in the 80s" fake-news? Russians joined the NHL in 1989-90 and 1990-91... and didn't fare very well (Makarov an exception, though he slowed down a lot over a long season). Now, obviously, there were special reasons for that, to do with team-culture of the time and the athletes' transition to North America, etc., etc. But it was only the "2nd wave" of Russians to the NHL -- the Bure / Fedorov generation (who had the motivation of big money) -- that were stars from the off and made a big impact on the N.A. pro-game.

As to Gretzky, how did he do against best-on-best international competition?:
1977 World Juniors: leading scorer
1981 Canada Cup: leading scorer
1982 World Championships (in Finland): leading scorer
1984 Canada Cup: leading scorer
1987 Canada Cup: leading scorer & MVP
1991 Canada Cup: leading scorer (would have been MVP but for Suter taking him out with 4.5 periods left in the tournament)

My point is: While European integration into the NHL (which started in the 70s... not the 80s.. and not the 90s) was obviously a good thing at the right time to strengthen the NHL, it wouldn't have made much impact before the 1970s/80s, simply because the European level of the sport was far behind Canada's. Czechoslovakia, Finland, Sweden, and the Soviet Union (though it was clearly deeper and more developed) were, in the 60s to 80s, a bit like Germany is now. Yes, they're going to throw up the odd Leon Draisaitl, but by and large the competition level is well behind the level in Canada.

As to the question of how today's NHL would look if it were only Canadian: The answer is, it would look better than it does today if the NHL today was the same size as then. Why? Because there were only 6 teams from 1942 to 1967. If there were only 6 NHL teams today, the number of jobs for Canadians would be reduced by something like 400%...? So, only the most elite Canadians would be able to play in the NHL, if it was still the size of the post-War years. And the quality of the game would be better.

 

[Minar]

Lol no one is saying he wasn't great, we're saying he wasn't as good as the best players today, which he clearly wasn't.

Clearly. Here is a video of him dominating in a lower scoring time than today. And some of the same players were playing then as today. With today's advances in equipment, training and rule changes that favor offense, Gretzky would thrive.

 

[authentic]

Clearly. Here is a video of him dominating in a lower scoring time than today. And some of the same players were playing then as today. With today's advances in equipment, training and rule changes that favor offense, Gretzky would thrive.

I think he would too, but all I'm saying is the top players today are better than he was.

 

[McFlash97]

Gretzky was the best then and of all time (compared to his peers), but if you really think Crosby, Ovechkin or McDavid wouldn't score more if they went back in time you live in a fantasy land.

Gretzky also played with wooden sticks and terrible skates, flew commercial and outscored everyone by 100 points. Not until LA he used that flashy stick. Give Crosby wooden sticks and terrible skates, shit ass nutrition, no modern medical therapy's or procedures... ..let's see how he does for a full season.

Hockey has evolved. Maybe evolve your mindset with it.

 

[Mbraunm]

Skill is taught, trained and increased through diet, training, exercise and equipment. The skill levels are higher than ever now. However, talent is genetic and innate, and can thrive in any era.
Talent is not the same as skill-we need to differentiate between the two.

The talent level of players like Gretzky and Mario are substantially higher than any player today.

 

[Weztex]

I think he would too, but all I'm saying is the top players today are better than he was.

And the Nepalese army is way better than Napoleon's Grande armée. Am I doing this right?

Seriously what is your point? You seem to purposedly ignore or refute any kind of historical context in a discussion that cannot be held without it. Everybody understands what you're saying but it leads absolutely nowhere. You said yourself that some players would score more than Gretzky back then without being as talented, but all this in a scenario that is pure fantasy and not real life. So expect that hockey changed (which everybody here already knows) I don't get what point you're trying so hard to put ahead.

 

[Sentinel]

Seriously, 15 year old McDavid was a faster and more skilled hockey player than anyone in the 80s.

I take McArov (sii) over McDavid 10 out of 10.

 

[umma gumma]

Seriously, 15 year old McDavid was a faster and more skilled hockey player than anyone in the 80s.

What the hell is this? So you're saying if McDavid at 15 years of age and 140 lbs was in the NHL in 1986 he could score 220pts, seeing as he'd be the best hockey player? Suuuuuuuuuuuuuure. Fantasy land indeed.

Lol no one is saying he wasn't great, we're saying he wasn't as good as the best players today, which he clearly wasn't.

He clearly was as good and better than the best players of today. He changed the game FFS. If Gretzky was born in 1997 he'd be far and away the best player in the league. The guy played chess with the NHL and no one could figure him out, his hockey IQ was insane. He'd still have that IQ today.

 

[Trap Jesus]

It's crazy how much better the game has gotten. This is honestly kind of sad to watch.

I like seeing highlights that aren't just goals nut this edited together so bizarrely.

 

[Aceboogie]

It's crazy how much better the game has gotten. This is honestly kind of sad to watch.

I like seeing highlights that aren't just goals nut this edited together so bizarrely.

I cant watch 80s hockey, the game just looks so bad. Seeing the complete inability of most D being able to skate makes it unwatchable

 

[Aceboogie]

Itd be a fun experiment to inject the current NHL with 90 of the worst skating ECHL D (3 per team) for a period of 50 games, and watch what current stars could do against them

 

[Trap Jesus]

Itd be a fun experiment to inject the current NHL with 90 of the worst skating ECHL D (3 per team) for a period of 50 games, and watch what current stars could do against them

The worst part is that this was literally the best of the best. It's the Cup Final including one of the most reputable and dominant dynasties of all time. Like what does a 48 point Maple Leafs vs. 53 point Penguins game look like in 1984/85?

Watching 80s hockey is something that makes me think Gretzky's seeming false humility when he's asked about how good he was is actually legit.

 

[North Cole]

Ahlers today are better than your average player from the early 80’s. it wasent until the late 80’s 90’s where the nhl actually became a competent league

This video is 1985... youre talking about late 80's? So two years after this video the NHL suddenly became a competent league?

Hilarious.

 

[Stealth JD]

I cant watch 80s hockey, the game just looks so bad. Seeing the complete inability of most D being able to skate makes it unwatchable

today's players would look just as inept as those of 4-decades ago if given the same equipment those guys had to use:

Coyotes star Oliver Ekman Larsson tries on 80's equipment

 

[Video Nasty]

today's players would look just as inept as those of 4-decades ago if given the same equipment those guys had to use:

Coyotes star Oliver Ekman Larsson tries on 80's equipment

Awesome video. It’ll give some insight for people who normally wouldn’t understand otherwise.

 

[SG1990]

I think he would too, but all I'm saying is the top players today are better than he was.

Which is a pointless argument that really doesn’t need to be made. Players are regarded for how well they did against their peers. If we use your arguement we shouldn’t really care about what McDavid, Crosby, Ovi are doing today because there is probably a 5 year old kid playing street hockey down the road from me that will be better one day because he grew up watching these guys and learned from them.