Vegas about to circumvent cap again? UPD: Mark Stone back practicing.

[Ted Hoffman]

If the governors told bettman to change the ltir rule it would be changed in a minute. He would have no choice.

The NHLPA would, though - and since it's a CBA-related item, nothing is getting changed without its approval.

 

[Panthaz89]

1. Yeah, they probably should, at the least, loosen the cap rules anyway. Teams want to spend way over the cap, just let them.

2. Multiple teams have used this mechanic exactly the same way. TB and Chicago won Cups with it. It's not some mysterious Vegas advantage that no one else has access to. Kucherov bragged about it. It's in the rules. Use it.

Tell your favourite team to put their star player on LTIR at the deadline to make some additions then.

Ah yes the cheat as much as everyone else mentality is so great for the league "a couple of other teams did it too" logic while every other team has to essentially follow the cap while other teams don't thanks to circumstances is beyond stupid especially since the playoffs are the most important part of the season.

 

[Strangle]

Maybe the league should just allow trades during the playoffs, when there’s no cap at all

 

[HabzSauce]

Maybe the league should just allow trades during the playoffs, when there’s no cap at all

Only for Vegas tho nobody else

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Only for Vegas tho nobody else

That's ridiculous.

Just all the American-based teams. Canadian-based teams can trade, but its outgoing-players only to Amercian-based teams in the playoffs, nothing incoming. And each Canadian-based team has to make one such trade, whether it's the playoffs or not.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Ah yes the cheat as much as everyone else mentality is so great for the league "a couple of other teams did it too" logic while every other team has to essentially follow the cap while other teams don't thanks to circumstances is beyond stupid especially since the playoffs are the most important part of the season.

That plus you don’t know when the NHL’s wheel of justice will randomly decide it doesn’t want this anymore and retroactively punish everyone who used it like they did with backdiving 12 year contracts.

 

[WhataKnight]

That plus you don’t know when the NHL’s wheel of justice will randomly decide it doesn’t want this anymore and retroactively punish everyone who used it like they did with backdiving 12 year contracts.

I’d love a concise explanation as to why and when the Wild were penalized for the Suter/Parise contracts.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I’d love a concise explanation as to why and when the Wild were penalized for the Suter/Parise contracts.

The Wild were never penalized for the Suter/Parise contracts. Both were bought out and the resulting cap charges are exactly as they would have been before the 2012 lockout and the resulting 2013 CBA.

What the penalty would have been had either quit playing before the end of their contracts? Depends on when we're talking, because the cap capture charge recharge recapture charge recapture capture penalty charge charge was done one way through about .... 2018? Which, that approach was completely asinine and overly punitive [as was the name they gave that, which ... yes, I know what it really was named, and I will still mock it at every chance I get], so the league inexplicably came to its senses and fixed it to what it should have been.

Which ... still didn't apply to the Wild. Or the Blackhawks, when Hossa decided he didn't want to keep playing but only for $1 million a year developed his skin allergy to a jersey that allowed him to be put on LTIR ... and then sent to Phoenix.

 

[hangman005]

Lol at all the excuses defending it because, "it's not against the rules."

Riddle me this, what's the point of the salary cap? To have an even playing field so rich teams cannot spend top-dollar, leaving teams with lesser means in the gutter, yes? By allocating the same spending money to every team, it's fair, correct?

Now, Vegas has a roster that's like 16M above the cap, yet it's suddenly okay because it isn't against the rules? It violates the very reason the rule was introduced in the first place. By being this much over the cap, it's no longer an even playing field. One team has an 88M roster, the other has a 104M roster. That's not equal.

That's what people are pissed off about, especially given the fact that Stone being ready for game 1 is highly suspicious.

First and foremost, it was about trying to get salary costs under control, the parity side was a mere a by product.

 

[Leafs87]

It’s an open loophole for everyone so I don’t see the issue

 

[WhataKnight]

Lol at all the excuses defending it because, "it's not against the rules."

Riddle me this, what's the point of the salary cap? To have an even playing field so rich teams cannot spend top-dollar, leaving teams with lesser means in the gutter, yes? By allocating the same spending money to every team, it's fair, correct?

Now, Vegas has a roster that's like 16M above the cap, yet it's suddenly okay because it isn't against the rules? It violates the very reason the rule was introduced in the first place. By being this much over the cap, it's no longer an even playing field. One team has an 88M roster, the other has a 104M roster. That's not equal.

That's what people are pissed off about, especially given the fact that Stone being ready for game 1 is highly suspicious.

They’re actually not icing a roster that exceeds the cap.

Game one’s lineup was at 82.2M. Last year’s cup roster was also compliant.

Now, new deals kicking in (Hanifin), this roster could not exist after June 2024 as it is. Stephenson, Mantha and Martinez are likely gone (but find a way keep Marchessault….!!!). They’ve painted themselves into a corner that way,, and several guys will have to walk in order to make room for Hertl/Hanifin. It’s certainly “fast and loose”, but

• Other teams KNOW Vegas does this, and it didn’t stop Calgary & SJ…..TWO division rivals…..from making deals in which they saw benefit

• The 3rd parties monitoring injuries were giving this side-eye last year and this one, and were pleased after doing diligence

• At no point in 2022 or 2023 did they ice a roster that itself was $10M over the cap. TB did pretty blatantly; meanwhile, Vegas’ sketchiest move - resting Mark Stone - actually follows Stone back to Ottawa, where he was on and off IR from January to March while the Sens weren’t contending.

For all the finger pointing, Vegas’ approach to this never put a circa-then 90M roster on the ice.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

the NHL should investigate some of these injuries to make sure they are legit and a team isnt just doing it to bolster their lineup before playoffs.
I just dunno how they could really make it work but u cant just take away LTIR.
LTIR is pretty important and it would effect alot of teams. if they got rid of it. many teams would be SCREWED. the NHL would regularly have to give compliance buyouts

 

[WhataKnight]

the NHL should investigate some of these injuries to make sure they are legit and a team isnt just doing it to bolster their lineup before playoffs.
I just dunno how they could really make it work but u cant just take away LTIR.
LTIR is pretty important and it would effect alot of teams. if they got rid of it. many teams would be SCREWED. the NHL would regularly have to give compliance buyouts

They do investigate.

Kelly McCrimmon actually had paragraphs about it. All this gets diligence by a 3rd party.

 

[Montreal Shadow]

First and foremost, it was about trying to get salary costs under control, the parity side was a mere a by product.

These go hand-in-hand. You cannot divorce the salaries from the rosters and pretend that the league didn’t care about the disparity it engendered.

The cap introduced cost certainty and the insurance that smaller market teams wouldn’t be outbid into irrelevance by larger markets.

 

[Fishy McScales]

I’d love a concise explanation as to why and when the Wild were penalized for the Suter/Parise contracts.

You're new to hockey, aren't you?

 

[AslanRH]

Just because you get new folks hurt so your lineup doesn't exceed the cap, it doesn't mean that the impact of having acquired players available to back fill due to Mr. Ready for Game 1's LTIR is lessened.

Saying you are not 100% pretty much ensures the 3rd party medical folks won't force you to come back. Kuch was much the same.

Yes every team can utilize the "loophole", but not all are fortunate enough to have their high end and high priced players get hurt consistently before the deadline and unable to return until game 1.

 

[hangman005]

Just because you get new folks hurt so your lineup doesn't exceed the cap, it doesn't mean that the impact of having acquired players available to back fill due to Mr. Ready for Game 1's LTIR is lessened.

Saying you are not 100% pretty much ensures the 3rd party medical folks won't force you to come back. Kuch was much the same.

Yes every team can utilize the "loophole", but not all are fortunate enough to have their high end and high priced players get hurt consistently before the deadline and unable to return until game 1.

So your saying he should fetch a good price in the offseason

 

[bossram]

Ah yes the cheat as much as everyone else mentality is so great for the league "a couple of other teams did it too" logic while every other team has to essentially follow the cap while other teams don't thanks to circumstances is beyond stupid especially since the playoffs are the most important part of the season.

I guess you don't really understand what is going on.

What cheating is happening? Please point to the CBA rule that was broken. The rules are the same for every team.

 

[Juxta Position]

Bettman and Daly say that LTIR is reviewed by an independent physician.

NHL's long-term injured reserve rules to remain intact, for now

A hot-button issue for NHL fans doesn’t appear to be a pressing one for the league’s general managers, hence perceived abuse of long-term injured reserve replacement wasn’t even on the docket for their three-day meetings in Florida this week.

www.sportsnet.ca

And Bettman also says fans LOVED the digital ads on the boards....

An independent third-party physician could literally mean anything.

 

[LudwigVonKarlsson]

It’s an open loophole for everyone so I don’t see the issue

You can't use this loophole if you don't have LTIR players, namely ones making 8M+

 

[Ted Hoffman]

An independent third-party physician could literally mean anything.

Let's pretend that the league really does just find some Dr. Quack to be the independent physician who'll sign anything on a piece of paper. The implications of that are clear:

1. All the complaining about what the league should do is wasted time and energy, because the league is never implementing any of those proposed rules, because

2. The league has no intent of ever seriously investigating LTIR at the end of a season to determine when a player is fit to play in the regular season vs. when the player is fit to play in the playoffs, because its independent physician will always side with whatever the team says.

That would almost mean the league doesn't care about this issue at all, and is implicitly green-lighting this kind of activity ... like I've been saying throughout this thread and others when the complaint gets raised.

 

[Lacaar]

Bettman and Daly say that LTIR is reviewed by an independent physician.

NHL's long-term injured reserve rules to remain intact, for now

A hot-button issue for NHL fans doesn’t appear to be a pressing one for the league’s general managers, hence perceived abuse of long-term injured reserve replacement wasn’t even on the docket for their three-day meetings in Florida this week.

www.sportsnet.ca

I think that's where Vegas knows their golden.. haha yes a pun for fun.

To be honest I imagine half players in the league could get a doctors approval to not play. Hell I'm probably being generous there. 3/4 of the league could likely get medical clearance if they so chose in order to not play. They all have some bumps and bruises. And while it's accepted in the NHL that you play with them. It's not accepted by everyday society and the medical world.

Doc my toe hurts. yes you have a hairline fracture. Now 99% of the time.. player and team deals with it and it's not even brought up. But a doctor will say.. stay off it.

With the rate they get sued etc. I highly doubt an independent doctor would ever say shit almost ever about even the slightest injury. Hossa's skin condition is a prime example. He could have claimed IR the day after signing his last contract. He played until it was convenient for him not to.

 

[WhataKnight]

You're new to hockey, aren't you?

I knew about Suter & Parise; though I could have worded my request for details better.

You’re new to etiquette/courtesy, aren’t you?

 

[Voight]

They do investigate.

Kelly McCrimmon actually had paragraphs about it. All this gets diligence by a 3rd party.

Especially when it's a repeat LTIR player like Stone. or a guy like Matt Murray who's always hurt.

 

[Blue Shakehead]

I wonder how long the NFL would put up with some loophole that allowed one team to circumvent their hard cap to load up on talent before the playoffs to win one Super Bowl and then do it again but even worse the following year. I'd guess this would be resolved in about 3 hours.

Meanwhile, in the joke that is the NHL - each team and the head office has their own set of "capologists" actively monitoring player and team salaries in real time to ensure that players cannot receive even one single penny beyond their 50% slice of the overall pie. And since we don't know how big the pie is until the season is over, we have another army of accountants managing escrow and associated payroll and tax deductions related to escrow.

The hard cap is so essential to the sanctity of the league that several teams have had to dress (and PLAY) zamboni drivers as goaltenders for meaningless games in February but not crucial as to prevent one team from gaining a 20% talent advantage when the championship is being decided. Its madness.