Vegas about to circumvent cap again? UPD: Mark Stone back practicing.

[pantherbot]

I am looking at it that way, but that's because I think most of the players and GMs look at it that way too.

Based on what? If that were the case, there would be mechanisms to deal with injuries post deadline too, but there aren't. If Stone got the spleen injury later after the deadline, Vegas goes into round 1 below the cap.

 

[stator]

How would they be making less money if the LTIR/playoff issue was fixed? There's no change in dollar amounts.

I guess it depends if LTIR salary counts towards revenue sharing and escrow accounts.

 

[Zirakzigil]

I guess it depends if LTIR salary counts towards revenue sharing and escrow accounts.

Salary is salary. Unless you are talking about LTIRetire. A player being out 3 months with an injury or playing the whole season has no effect on revenue sharing.

 

[Golden_Jet]

The way things are is broken judging by everyone other than Golden Knights and Lightning fans having an issue with it. If your position is "I like the system where healthy players don't have to play so teams can circumvent the cap." we don't have much to talk about.

Problem with your scenario, is lots of posters not associated with those teams, aren’t having an issue with it.

There are the ones that say if both sides can come to an agreement, then their fine with it.

It’s the proposals that say your not eligible for round 1, that would never get agreed to.

 

[Slats432]

Problem with your scenario, is lots of posters not associated with those teams, aren’t having an issue with it.

There are the ones that say if both sides can come to an agreement, then their fine with it.

It’s the proposals that say your not eligible for round 1, that would never get agreed to.

I agree that banning a player that was on LTIR isn't the right solution because you could end up suspending legitimately injured guys that get healthy in time for playoffs.

I just want to close the loophole that allows teams to replace LTIR guys at the deadline with dollar for dollar players then exceed the cap by $15M in the playoffs.

 

[Voight]

I agree that banning a player that was on LTIR isn't the right solution because you could end up suspending legitimately injured guys that get healthy in time for playoffs.

I just want to close the loophole that allows teams to replace LTIR guys at the deadline with dollar for dollar players then exceed the cap by $15M in the playoffs.

It's not really a loophole, there is no salary cap in the playoffs, so teams dont have to abide by it.

 

[Slats432]

It's not really a loophole, there is no salary cap in the playoffs, so teams dont have to abide by it.

The loophole is adding tons of salary at the deadline for players put on LTIR then being able to have players get healthy before the playoffs, then not play those players because you wouldn't be cap compliant and then activating them for the playoffs and icing a line up that would be EXTREMELY OVER THE CAP if it were carried over to the playoffs. Not sure where you are missing the point.

 

[Zirakzigil]

The loophole is adding tons of salary at the deadline for players put on LTIR then being able to have players get healthy before the playoffs, then not play those players because you wouldn't be cap compliant and then activating them for the playoffs and icing a line up that would be EXTREMELY OVER THE CAP if it were carried over to the playoffs. Not sure where you are missing the point.

Unless teams start deliberately injuring players, this isnt a loophole. Most teams dont have an issue with it because its impossible to plan and could easily backfire.

 

[Slats432]

Unless teams start deliberately injuring players, this isnt a loophole. Most teams dont have an issue with it because its impossible to plan and could easily backfire.

"Impossible" to plan for.

 

[Zirakzigil]

"Impossible" to plan for.

View attachment 855298

So you are saying Vegas deliberately lacerated Stones spleen to put him on LTIR?

 

[Slats432]

So you are saying Vegas deliberately lacerated Stones spleen to put him on LTIR?

So you are saying that for three years in a row a professional athlete was injured right before the deadline and healed exactly in time for the playoffs?

 

[Zirakzigil]

So you are saying that for three years in a row a professional athlete was injured right before the deadline and healed exactly in time for the playoffs?

Stones back issues have been well documented. And he has missed plenty of time during the regular season with that issue.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I agree that banning a player that was on LTIR isn't the right solution because you could end up suspending legitimately injured guys that get healthy in time for playoffs.

I just want to close the loophole that allows teams to replace LTIR guys at the deadline with dollar for dollar players then exceed the cap by $15M in the playoffs.

I get the intuitive appeal behind just make a cap for the playoffs, just say teams can't have a roster over the cap and I do agree, a team shouldn't be able to just park guys on LTIR and have them ride there until the playoffs start and then load up the roster. I just think any such idea has to allow for teams who did "load it up" permissibly at the trade deadline to be able to keep that roster, instead of getting f***ed over by trying to "fix" teams who park guys on LTIR.

I have an idea that just came to mind, I might try fleshing it out in the next couple of days, but right now I've got 97 other things I'm working on and I need to either declutter that list or wade through and knock some of them out.

 

[Slats432]

Stones back issues have been well documented. And he has missed plenty of time during the regular season with that issue.

Believe what you want. There is many more who believe this is an issue, which I hope they correct. Not just with Vegas but with Tampa and Chicago previously.

Let me ask you a question.

If a scenario existed where Stone in the last three years was healthy with 4 games to go. In any of those years. Sitting a healthy Mark Stone would be considered cap circumvention because they couldn't activate him and be cap compliant.

How would you consider the best way for the league to address that?

 

[TheBeard]

If Stone somehow shows up no later than game 3 then Vegas fans have to admit it's a little sketchy. I know they won't though because in their minds the Knight and their FO can't do no wrong.

 

[Czechboy]

Nightmare first round opponent
.. I think that will be the best series in round one. 2 cup contenders in round one..

 

[Adele Dazeem]

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

 

[smytty]

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Can I hate both?

 

[Adele Dazeem]

Can I hate both?

Yes, that's acceptable.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

If a scenario existed where Stone in the last three years was healthy with 4 games to go. In any of those years. Sitting a healthy Mark Stone would be considered cap circumvention because they couldn't activate him and be cap compliant.

How would you consider the best way for the league to address that?

Spitballing, presuming we can unilaterally make CBA changes:

1. Require that a player on LTIR who was deemed healthy enough to play must come off LTIR, even if that means assigning a player to the minors is needed to make room on the Active Roster. [Said players would not be subject to waivers, but would still count against the cap.]
2. Allow LTIR to be invoked if needed inside of 10 games in instances that it might be needed for ordinary roster moves / to facilitate someone coming off LTIR and an injured player would otherwise qualify for LTIR. Games toward the 10-game limit not missed in the regular season have to be missed in the playoffs or in the next season the player is on an NHL roster.
3. Enforce any resulting overage (where LTIR can't be used as described in 2) as a penalty on the next season's cap. [Which can get messy on a couple fronts, but I'm ignoring that for this purpose.]

 

[Kairi Zaide]

Here's the thing with Stone (and other players).

A doctor cannot rule a player healthy and ready to play if said player still experiences any symptoms that could hurt their recovery or that could worsen their condition. And the doctor's advice is what the league will use as a baseline to determine whether a team has to activate a player or not.

A player can decide to play through injuries when they think the risk is worth it for them. A lot of players play with injuries and issues in the playoffs that they wouldn't play with in the regular season.

The healing process is progressive. In reality, you don't suddenly go from not ready on a given day to ready on the very next day.

There's always a period of time during which doctors can't rule a player healthy but a player can feel they are ready. If the playoffs started a week or two ago, maybe Stone would already be playing. It's possible he wouldn't be playing 2 weeks for now if it were still the regular season. And it's not like Stone's issues are undocumented.

 

[pantherbot]

Spitballing, presuming we can unilaterally make CBA changes:

1. Require that a player on LTIR who was deemed healthy enough to play must come off LTIR, even if that means assigning a player to the minors is needed to make room on the Active Roster. [Said players would not be subject to waivers, but would still count against the cap.]
2. Allow LTIR to be invoked if needed inside of 10 games in instances that it might be needed for ordinary roster moves / to facilitate someone coming off LTIR and an injured player would otherwise qualify for LTIR. Games toward the 10-game limit not missed in the regular season have to be missed in the playoffs or in the next season the player is on an NHL roster.
3. Enforce any resulting overage (where LTIR can't be used as described in 2) as a penalty on the next season's cap. [Which can get messy on a couple fronts, but I'm ignoring that for this purpose.]

1. How would you get consensus on when a player is deemed healthy enough to play?
2. So a player might have to miss playoff games, which is exactly what people keep saying can't be done. Plus how do you even decide which games a player should miss, maybe a team wouldn't have even dressed that player anyways.
3. This is even more complicated than people proposing putting in a playoff cap.

 

[joepeps]

1. How would you get consensus on when a player is deemed healthy enough to play?
2. So a player might have to miss playoff games, which is exactly what people keep saying can't be done. Plus how do you even decide which games a player should miss, maybe a team wouldn't have even dressed that player anyways.
3. This is even more complicated than people proposing putting in a playoff cap.

Just make it so you can only ice a certain amount of money cap wise per game... its very simple.

 

[pantherbot]

Just make it so you can only ice a certain amount of money cap wise per game... its very simple.

It's not that simple if you want an even playing field. You'd have to account for cap accruals, buyout hits, and cap retentions. Otherwise teams that accrued cap during the season are being punished and teams that have buyouts/retentions are being rewarded.

 

[Bowski]