Line Combos: Vatanen & Lindholm [aka defensive lineup thread]

[190Octane]

Like who? I bet nobody who plays same role.

That's kind of the point. They're sending him down to see game action but if something happens to Fowler or Lindholm I imagine he would be right back up. Would you rather him actually get in a game some or sit in Anaheim?

 

[TheJoeMan]

The way he's been running around in his own end, he still has stuff to learn.

He's been fine in his own end. If he didn't turn the puck over so much while trying to exit the zone he'd be playing right now. Defensively he's fine and as fine as he's going to be in my opinion. It's learning when to make the right pass and he doesn't need to the AHL for that. He has to learn how to do that against NHL competition. He's already figured out how to pick apart AHL teams.

 

[190Octane]

He's been fine in his own end. If he didn't turn the puck over so much while trying to exit the zone he'd be playing right now. Defensively he's fine and as fine as he's going to be in my opinion. It's learning when to make the right pass and he doesn't need to the AHL for that. He has to learn how to do that against NHL competition. He's already figured out how to pick apart AHL teams.

I completely agree with this, the problem I see is that no one deserves to be taken out of the 6 man lineup at this point... Allen has stepped up his game big time so far.

 

[TheJoeMan]

I completely agree with this, the problem I see is that no one deserves to be taken out of the 6 man lineup at this point... Allen has stepped up his game big time so far.

Absolutely. The only way Sami finds his way back into the lineup is if there's a couple of injuries or someone's game goes completely to hell. Next year is his time to cement his place in this league.

 

[Luca]

Ducks should just dump him. It is clear that he isnt part of team plan.

 

[Lord Flashheart]

He's been fine in his own end. If he didn't turn the puck over so much while trying to exit the zone he'd be playing right now. Defensively he's fine and as fine as he's going to be in my opinion. It's learning when to make the right pass and he doesn't need to the AHL for that. He has to learn how to do that against NHL competition. He's already figured out how to pick apart AHL teams.

Not really. He wasn't exactly matching up against toughest opposition, and was still behind the plays and out of position. That's not something I would call fine.

Ducks should just dump him. It is clear that he isnt part of team plan.

You, and the others, can say that as many times as you want, it wont make it true.

 

[TheJoeMan]

Not really. He wasn't exactly matching up against toughest opposition, and was still behind the plays and out of position. That's not something I would call fine.

Not on every single shift. Most of his games this year he has been perfectly fine in his own end. It's just for whatever reason we magnify his mistakes and ignore the good things his done. He's not a punishing force in his own end but more often than not he has been effective in separating the man from the puck and moving it up the ice. Sure he's had his share of miscues in his own zone but so has everyone. It's far from his biggest problem. Pinching too much and making bad passes. Those are the two things keeping from being an everyday NHL defensemen and no more time in the AHL won't solve that. He's there right now to help them win in the playoffs. He's either here in October or on another team's roster. Also he's probably never going to be a star in this league either. If we can get 82 games out of him the way he played most of this season I'll be happy. He was a fourth round pick after all. I get the sense that it needs to be all or nothing with this player and that just isn't the case. A 15 minute, .5 points per game d-man that has limited defensive responsibility is fine by me.

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

Not sure I'd equate being effective "more often than not" with being fine defensively. I like what he brings in transition and skating but he's pretty cringeworthy without the puck. A lot of that is alleviated when he plays with Allen though.

He's not better than the six we're dressing right now. Maybe next year.

 

[SmackCrackleNPop]

He's not a fit right now, definitely needs to add better positioning and some muscle. He's a treat when he has the puck though

 

[Ducksforcup]

Not sure I'd equate being effective "more often than not" with being fine defensively. I like what he brings in transition and skating but he's pretty cringeworthy without the puck. A lot of that is alleviated when he plays with Allen though.

He's not better than the six we're dressing right now. Maybe next year.

This is absolutely true.

Might as well send him down and let him log big minutes in the AHL...that's better than watching from the press-box every night.

 

[Sojourn]

Not on every single shift. Most of his games this year he has been perfectly fine in his own end. It's just for whatever reason we magnify his mistakes and ignore the good things his done. He's not a punishing force in his own end but more often than not he has been effective in separating the man from the puck and moving it up the ice. Sure he's had his share of miscues in his own zone but so has everyone. It's far from his biggest problem. Pinching too much and making bad passes. Those are the two things keeping from being an everyday NHL defensemen and no more time in the AHL won't solve that. He's there right now to help them win in the playoffs. He's either here in October or on another team's roster. Also he's probably never going to be a star in this league either. If we can get 82 games out of him the way he played most of this season I'll be happy. He was a fourth round pick after all. I get the sense that it needs to be all or nothing with this player and that just isn't the case. A 15 minute, .5 points per game d-man that has limited defensive responsibility is fine by me.

It seems to me that just as many people are overlooking the mistakes and magnifying the good he's done.

The bottom line for me is that in Anaheim he was put into an ideal situation, for his style of play. I'm not convinced the good completely overshadowed the bad, and I don't believe Anaheim has the strength on the blue line to keep protecting him to that degree, especially in games where Anaheim doesn't get last change. He's shown some flashes of brilliance, but he's shown some equally poor decisions that could, or have, cost Anaheim.

I think a coach needs to be able to depend on a player to do his job, in whatever role he is in. Sami isn't quite at that point yet, and serviceable isn't going to cut it on a good team. I don't believe Anaheim is okay with Sami as is. I'm fairly confident they feel there is more to offer from him, and they feel he can be better than he has been.

 

[TheJoeMan]

It seems to me that just as many people are overlooking the mistakes and magnifying the good he's done.

The bottom line for me is that in Anaheim he was put into an ideal situation, for his style of play. I'm not convinced the good completely overshadowed the bad, and I don't believe Anaheim has the strength on the blue line to keep protecting him to that degree, especially in games where Anaheim doesn't get last change. He's shown some flashes of brilliance, but he's shown some equally poor decisions that could, or have, cost Anaheim.

I think a coach needs to be able to depend on a player to do his job, in whatever role he is in. Sami isn't quite at that point yet, and serviceable isn't going to cut it on a good team. I don't believe Anaheim is okay with Sami as is. I'm fairly confident they feel there is more to offer from him, and they feel he can be better than he has been.

But you have the admit the amount of good things he's done this year greatly outnumber the bad. I agree with everything else you said, I just feel the only way he'll get to where he need to be is by being a full-time player next season.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

you guys realize sami tied for our team lead in goals by D right? in 48 games. and with him on the ice @ ES anaheim generated 86 more 5 on 5 shot attempts than against, some is partially due to his zone starts but he was only slightly more sheltered in that regard than lindholm.

sami has offensive gifts no other D on this team has, yes he has to learn to pick his spots better but the only way he will learn is by playing which is why he should have played more, Anaheim only lost 9 games in regulation with him in the lineup. his actual "defending" was not even that bad, he only got overpowered a couple times that i can remember. but consistently generating play towards the other net is not a bad thing for any player

 

[KaseMeOutside]

It seems to me that just as many people are overlooking the mistakes and magnifying the good he's done.

The bottom line for me is that in Anaheim he was put into an ideal situation, for his style of play. I'm not convinced the good completely overshadowed the bad, and I don't believe Anaheim has the strength on the blue line to keep protecting him to that degree, especially in games where Anaheim doesn't get last change. He's shown some flashes of brilliance, but he's shown some equally poor decisions that could, or have, cost Anaheim.

I think a coach needs to be able to depend on a player to do his job, in whatever role he is in. Sami isn't quite at that point yet, and serviceable isn't going to cut it on a good team. I don't believe Anaheim is okay with Sami as is. I'm fairly confident they feel there is more to offer from him, and they feel he can be better than he has been.

On the contrary, some jump on every single mistake he makes as proof he does not belong in the lineup

 

[snarktacular]

I think his defensive deficiencies were fairly overblown (in terms of positioning). But in his most recent stint he wasn't quite as good in that area so I can see the concern. He does turn the puck over sometimes, and that is dangerous. And he still gets outmuscled even though he is doing the right thing.

I don't think more time in the minors will help him much since I think he's mostly mentally there.

 

[Ducksforcup]

I think his defensive deficiencies were fairly overblown (in terms of positioning). But in his most recent stint he wasn't quite as good in that area so I can see the concern. He does turn the puck over sometimes, and that is dangerous. And he still gets outmuscled even though he is doing the right thing.

I don't think more time in the minors will help him much.

I don't think so either, but I wouldn't play S.V. over any of the current defenseman in the lineup IMO.

 

[Sojourn]

But you have the admit the amount of good things he's done this year greatly outnumber the bad. I agree with everything else you said, I just feel the only way he'll get to where he need to be is by being a full-time player next season.

I completely agree. He's a work in progress, and I want to see him with the team next season. I'm fine with a young player like him making the mistakes he does. That's part of learning. I do agree that the good greatly outweighs the bad. I just take issue when people shrug it off entirely. To me, early in the season, I saw a player a bit better(well, more conservative) defensively, but not as impactful defensively. The most recent call up, I felt it was the reverse. There were more mistakes defensively(I'm including the turnovers in this), but I thought he created more offensively.

I think he needs to find that line between being solid defensively, and still being able to bring it offensively. And I really don't think he'll learn it in the AHL, because his talent level vs. the average player will help mask the mistakes, and mistakes are one of the ways you learn.

Edit: er, crap. I meant not as impactful offensively. You get the idea.

 

[TheJoeMan]

I completely agree. He's a work in progress, and I want to see him with the team next season. I'm fine with a young player like him making the mistakes he does. That's part of learning. I do agree that the good greatly outweighs the bad. I just take issue when people shrug it off entirely. To me, early in the season, I saw a player a bit better(well, more conservative) defensively, but not as impactful defensively. The most recent call up, I felt it was the reverse. There were more mistakes defensively(I'm including the turnovers in this), but I thought he created more offensively.

I think he needs to find that line between being solid defensively, and still being able to bring it offensively. And I really don't think he'll learn it in the AHL, because his talent level vs. the average player will help mask the mistakes, and mistakes are one of the ways you learn.

Couldn't agree with you more.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

Funny how most agree Etem has to earn his way on the team and not be handed a job here. But I read here that Sami has to be given a job here because it's not possible for him to earn it other than to be handed the job he isn't ready for. If we're going to play that game then Etem should never have been sent down this year. You can't have it both ways.

But make no mistake, I'm not in favor of handing either of them a job they don't earn. Only pointing out the hypocrisy of the situation.

 

[Sojourn]

you guys realize sami tied for our team lead in goals by D right? in 48 games. and with him on the ice @ ES anaheim generated 86 more 5 on 5 shot attempts than against, some is partially due to his zone starts but he was only slightly more sheltered in that regard than lindholm.

sami has offensive gifts no other D on this team has, yes he has to learn to pick his spots better but the only way he will learn is by playing which is why he should have played more, Anaheim only lost 9 games in regulation with him in the lineup. his actual "defending" was not even that bad, he only got overpowered a couple times that i can remember. but consistently generating play towards the other net is not a bad thing for any player

Some of it? Try a lot of it. Again, he was in an absolutely ideal situation. Not just in terms of zone starts, but match ups. He wasn't just in a 3rd pairing role. He was in a sheltered 3rd pairing role, seeing, by far, the easiest match ups. You keep talking about shots generated, but you seem to hand wave that. Also, Anaheim only lost 20 games in regulation period, so overall I'd say that stat is fairly meaningless. He played a little over half of the season, and he played most of the games earlier on when Anaheim was on a roll. A little context, please.

The entire problem is that he was so sheltered, and that can't continue. When Anaheim would have been trying to weather the storm, Sami is not the guy who would have been on the ice. When the team was facing the opposition's top players, Sami is not the guy who would have been on the ice. I'm not saying the shot differential with him on the ice isn't important, because it is, but you make it out to sound like he drives the play more than anyone else the other way, and that just isn't true. Imagine if Lindholm or Fowler were on the ice in those situations, and as it is they both drive the play in much tougher situations.

My biggest issue with Sami really isn't about the good or the bad, it's about the role. Boudreau sheltered the crap out of him, and for a coach who likes to roll the lines I find that to be a concern. BB hasn't historically been a huge match up coach, certainly not at the level we saw from RC, but he worked very hard at getting proper match ups for Sami. To me, that says the coach has some concerns about Sami's ability to handle more at this point. I think next season, we'll see him get a little more away from that, because he'll want Sami to carry a bit heavier a load.

Edit: and none of this is about Sami's skill. He is undeniably an extremely talented young player, with, I think, great offensive upside. Smaller defensemen like him typically take a bit more time before they are ready for a full time job(I actually think he's ahead of the curve at the moment). I think Anaheim is doing a good job bringing him along the way they are, and I actually think the results point to that too. I think he'll soon reach a point where he can get a more standard 3rd pairing role, and we'll see him hit another level in terms of offensive contributions and PP performance. I think he has the potential for a big breakout season, either this next one, or the one after(I think he'll be a full-time player next season, either way).

 

[190Octane]

Funny how most agree Etem has to earn his way on the team and not be handed a job here. But I read here that Sami has to be given a job here because it's not possible for him to earn it other than to be handed the job he isn't ready for. If we're going to play that game then Etem should never have been sent down this year. You can't have it both ways.

But make no mistake, I'm not in favor of handing either of them a job they don't earn. Only pointing out the hypocrisy of the situation.

He had 45 points in 62 games in the AHL last year and was the d-man of the year in the top league in Finland. To me that carries a lot more weight than having success in the WHL. That being said I think Etem earned it this year in the AHL.

 

[SmackCrackleNPop]

Well, looks like Vatanen may get called up if Robidas is injured for awhile. (Or Fistric)

 

[Ducks DVM]

Vatanen will likely be called up regardless of whether or not he plays. The Ducks will want the extra body in case of further injures.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Some of it? Try a lot of it. Again, he was in an absolutely ideal situation. Not just in terms of zone starts, but match ups. He wasn't just in a 3rd pairing role. He was in a sheltered 3rd pairing role, seeing, by far, the easiest match ups. You keep talking about shots generated, but you seem to hand wave that. Also, Anaheim only lost 20 games in regulation period, so overall I'd say that stat is fairly meaningless. He played a little over half of the season, and he played most of the games earlier on when Anaheim was on a roll. A little context, please.

The entire problem is that he was so sheltered, and that can't continue. When Anaheim would have been trying to weather the storm, Sami is not the guy who would have been on the ice. When the team was facing the opposition's top players, Sami is not the guy who would have been on the ice. I'm not saying the shot differential with him on the ice isn't important, because it is, but you make it out to sound like he drives the play more than anyone else the other way, and that just isn't true. Imagine if Lindholm or Fowler were on the ice in those situations, and as it is they both drive the play in much tougher situations.

My biggest issue with Sami really isn't about the good or the bad, it's about the role. Boudreau sheltered the crap out of him, and for a coach who likes to roll the lines I find that to be a concern. BB hasn't historically been a huge match up coach, certainly not at the level we saw from RC, but he worked very hard at getting proper match ups for Sami. To me, that says the coach has some concerns about Sami's ability to handle more at this point. I think next season, we'll see him get a little more away from that, because he'll want Sami to carry a bit heavier a load.

Edit: and none of this is about Sami's skill. He is undeniably an extremely talented young player, with, I think, great offensive upside. Smaller defensemen like him typically take a bit more time before they are ready for a full time job(I actually think he's ahead of the curve at the moment). I think Anaheim is doing a good job bringing him along the way they are, and I actually think the results point to that too. I think he'll soon reach a point where he can get a more standard 3rd pairing role, and we'll see him hit another level in terms of offensive contributions and PP performance. I think he has the potential for a big breakout season, either this next one, or the one after(I think he'll be a full-time player next season, either way).

sami's offensive zone start % is only slightly higher than lindholms.
what you've just proven is sami was taking advantage of his talent, if he was dooing poorly in those sheltered minutes, i'd be worried, but he hasn't he has excelled

also he's the only dman in the entire organization capable of QBing a PP we can't continue allowing chances to score in the playoffs go to waste, since the 2 early ones in game 1, it's back to the same terrible PP

 

[Sojourn]

sami's offensive zone start % is only slightly higher than lindholms.
what you've just proven is sami was taking advantage of his talent, if he was dooing poorly in those sheltered minutes, i'd be worried, but he hasn't he has excelled

also he's the only dman in the entire organization capable of QBing a PP we can't continue allowing chances to score in the playoffs go to waste, since the 2 early ones in game 1, it's back to the same terrible PP

And Lindholm was playing top 4 responsibilities. Fowler and Lovejoy did the heavy lifting in the D zone.

What I've just proven is that Sami was put in an ideal situation to do well, and he did well. I've also argued that Boudreau can't keep protecting him like that, which you seem to ignore.