Confirmed with Link: [VAN/TOR] Canucks acquire D Travis Dermott for 3rd in 2022 (WPG)

[zeke]

I think as long as he's given bottom pairing duties he should be fine. The problem will be if he' put in our top 4 playing 20+ minutes a night....

Definitely not a lock to be great but I really doubt he'll be any risker than Myers or Schenn tbh.

 

[Petey But Really Jim]

Definitely not a lock to be great but I really doubt he'll be any risker than Myers or Schenn tbh.

I met your hero Dubas.

 

[JohnHodgson]

This is the same reasoning that was used when the team traded for Vey and Bärtschi. It's not so much about that the "sky is falling", but the disappointment in management's trading away picks when we have one of the worst prospect pools in the league. (This is not a hyperbole btw, unlike your sky is falling claim).

This team is not a contender and is most likely not even going to the playoffs. What's the point of trading a third for a replacement-level player like Dermott? Also, if you actually look at the Leaf's board, he is awful playing on the right side. That's why he's included in so many Leaf's proposals.

Linden Vey played 18 games prior to the trade.

Sven Baertschi played 66 games prior to the trade.

Apples to oranges.... these Vey, Baertschi comparisons are so stupid.... Dermott has played 251 NHL games and has proven to be at LEAST a capable bottom pairing defenseman. Jim paid a PREMIUM on guys that didn't establish ANYTHING in the NHL.

A 2nd round pick for Vey, who had 5 points in 18 NHL games at that point of his career? Sure he has good AHL numbers, but point per game numbers in your D+5 years is really not that impressive. He might have been worth a 4th round flier at most. Why Benning gave up a 2nd round pick? Who knows.

Baertschi was an inconsistent offensive forward who wasn't bringing anything to the table if he wasn't scoring. Again, he wasn't that productive in the AHL by his D+4 season (25 points in 36 games). He was struggling to stay in the the big leagues despite being on a bad/mediocre Flames team. Bear had 4 points in 15 NHL games and 25 points in 36 AHL games. He was struggling mightily and his trade value was decreasing by the day. Why Jim Benning overpaid and gave a 2nd round pick? Who knows.

Travis Dermott played 251 NHL games on a very good Leafs roster. He wasn't playing top pairing minutes but he did play 17 minutes game in his first two seasons and looked very promising under Babcock and many touted him to be a future top 4 Dman. Dermott for whatever reason never earned Keefe's trust and was basically in the dog house for the past 2 years, while still being a serviceable Dman. Canucks are acquiring a young defenseman who had a very promising start to his career, and hoping a change of scenery can help this player grow into something bigger.

JB paid $10 for a $5 scratch card in Linden Vey and it was a complete bust.
JB paid $10 for a $5 scratch card in Sven Baertschi and won a couple bucks, but still lost the transaction.

JR is paying fair value for a comparatively known product in hopes the value will be rehabilitated and increase.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Linden Vey played 18 games prior to the trade.

Sven Baertschi played 66 games prior to the trade.

Apples to oranges.... these Vey, Baertschi comparisons are so stupid.... Dermott has played 251 NHL games and has proven to be at LEAST a capable bottom pairing defenseman. Jim paid a PREMIUM on guys that didn't establish ANYTHING in the NHL.

A 2nd round pick for Vey, who had 5 points in 18 NHL games at that point of his career? Sure he has good AHL numbers, but point per game numbers in your D+5 years is really not that impressive. He might have been worth a 4th round flier at most. Why Benning gave up a 2nd round pick? Who knows.

Baertschi was an inconsistent offensive forward who wasn't bringing anything to the table if he wasn't scoring. Again, he wasn't that productive in the AHL by his D+4 season (25 points in 36 games). He was struggling to stay in the the big leagues despite being on a bad/mediocre Flames team. Bear had 4 points in 15 NHL games and 25 points in 36 AHL games. He was struggling mightily and his trade value was decreasing by the day. Why Jim Benning overpaid and gave a 2nd round pick? Who knows.

Travis Dermott played 251 NHL games on a very good Leafs roster. He wasn't playing top pairing minutes but he did play 17 minutes game in his first two seasons and looked very promising under Babcock and many touted him to be a future top 4 Dman. Dermott for whatever reason never earned Keefe's trust and was basically in the dog house for the past 2 years, while still being a serviceable Dman. Canucks are acquiring a young defenseman who had a very promising start to his career, and hoping a change of scenery can help this player grow into something bigger.

JB paid $10 for a $5 scratch card in Linden Vey and it was a complete bust.
JB paid $10 for a $5 scratch card in Sven Baertschi and won a couple bucks, but still lost the transaction.

JR is paying fair value for a comparatively known product in hopes the value will be rehabilitated and increase.

Baertschi's career was cut short by concussions...no GM foresees that..a bit unfair..IMO......

JR (or PA) has only made two minor trades...Its a bit early to start anointing him to be Mr Shrewd Guy...Other than the Guddy trade, I never had a problem with most of Bennings trades...his biggest mistakes were in UFA.

 

[F A N]

Apples to oranges.... these Vey, Baertschi comparisons are so stupid.... Dermott has played 251 NHL games and has proven to be at LEAST a capable bottom pairing defenseman. Jim paid a PREMIUM on guys that didn't establish ANYTHING in the NHL.

It is apples to oranges. Players are given a certain amount of time to establish themselves. If the Leafs traded a 22 year old Dermott for a 3rd Leafs fans would probably be mad. And had Dermott establish himself as a top 4 D as many Leafs were hoping he would become, you ain't getting him for a 3rd.

Dermott reminds me a bit of Stecher. You watch him play and it seems that he is a top 4 calibre Dman but then he never gains traction with the coaching staff. At the very least they seem to be very good bottom pairing Dmen but then both have spent time as healthy scratches.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Baertschi's career was cut short by concussions...no GM foresees that..a bit unfair..IMO......

JR (or PA) has only made two minor trades...Its a bit early to start anointing him to be Mr Shrewd Guy...Other than the Guddy trade, I never had a problem with most of Bennings trades...his biggest mistakes were in UFA.

Agree with the first part. Baertschi trade was fine in a vacuum.

The second part:
OEL trade?
Toffoli trade?
JT Miller trade?
Poulliot trade?
Prust trade?
Clandenning trade?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Agree with the first part. Baertschi trade was fine in a vacuum.

The second part:
OEL trade?
Toffoli trade?
JT Miller trade?
Poulliot trade?
Prust trade?
Clandenning trade?

This is opening up a massive can of worms which this thread doesnt need...None of those really bug me..OEL ( Better than I expected)...Toffoli (I'm on the fence with that one..If Madden had become a player, clear win for the Kings)...JT Miller (big win. for the Canucks...now .worth more now, than what we traded for him)...Poulliot (worth the risk as a reclamation)...Prust (Kassian was kicked off the team..we got Prust for a 5th..who cares?)..Clendenning (my memory does not go back that far).

 

[PuckMunchkin]

This is opening up a massive can of worms which this thread doesnt need

Fair enough

 

[Nucker101]

I get everyone is scarred from the Benning era, but the 'sky is falling' narrative here is laughable (stopped reading after the first 3 pages)

Seriously, a 3rd round pick has a ~15% chance of becoming a Dermott.

Dermott has good speed which Canucks sorely lack, he has experience on both sides, he's fairly young, he's half the price of Hamonic, and he has solid underlying numbers. Maybe he works out here and maybe he doesn't, but this is a smart bet by Allvin and co.

by this logic you trade away multiple draft picks every year though. It seems like a very linear and basic way of thinking. I refuse to believe that going into drafts every year with less than 7 picks is a a recipe for long term success in a hard cap league.


the actual equation/comparison is the high variance and more volatile asset(draft pick) vs a “proven” NHL player with some upside as a long term effective role player


one asset has a higher chance of contributing nothing, but also offers a small chance at becoming a core long term asset

the other asset has a high chance of providing some value to your NHL team, but is basically at that stage where suddenly breaking out would be shocking.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I get everyone is scarred from the Benning era, but the 'sky is falling' narrative here is laughable (stopped reading after the first 3 pages)

Seriously, a 3rd round pick has a ~15% chance of becoming a Dermott.

Dermott has good speed which Canucks sorely lack, he has experience on both sides, he's fairly young, he's half the price of Hamonic, and he has solid underlying numbers. Maybe he works out here and maybe he doesn't, but this is a smart bet by Allvin and co.

There is definitely a psychological trap here we are falling for (Or at least I am).

Say we never had that 3rd round pick in this series of trades.

It was just Hamonic for Dermott straight up; Im guessing it would be unanimously lauded as a great move.


The fact that we swapped a 3rd rounder for a teeny weeny bit higher value 3rd rounder makes this feel worse somehow.

 

[settinguptheplay]

Can't say this trade is any level of exciting. Always found McDermott a meh player. But if I look at the two trades as a pairing I feel it came out a net positive. If for no other reason than we gained some cap space.

If it was my call I would have just held on to the extra 3rd. That said I am more than willing to give Dermott that shot to impress. He seems genuinely excited to be joining the team. Still young enough to discover a way to make an impact. At worst a sunk 3rd. Not optimal but not franchise sinking either.

 

[rypper]

In tonight's armies Harman wonders if the Dermott trade coming after the Hamonic move could lead to the Canucks moving on from Rathbone, potentially as a piece in a larger trade.

He was clear to clarify it was just him thinking out loud and not anything he'd heard etc.

 

[strattonius]

This was an excellent buy-low target. The Leafs needed the CAP and Sandin is emerging as a young stud.

This transaction isn't even remotely similar or comparable to the plethora of reclamation projects Benning's awful pro scouting targeted during his tenure. Stop using those transactions as some sort of 'indication' this management group is no different. You're naive if you think this way.

This is a decent bottom pairing defenseman who is younger, better and cheaper than that pile of enormous crap that was Hamonic. I'm literally shocked some of you think Hamonic is a better defenseman - he couldn't make a f***ing pass and was the slowest skater on the team.

 

[Bluelines]

Leaf fan, you did well in that trade. Dermott is a defender with great foot work, can skate really well, moves the puck quickly and was the victim of having two younger defenders knocking on the door for ice time. He has a chippy side, although you don't see that often, he is not a physical defender he is better suited for redline to the opponents goalie, with that said he's not usually a defensive liability. Like most bottom of the rotation d-man he can have brain cramps at times and forget his coverage. He's probably a 4/5 defender on most teams. All in all if your expectations are low he will surprise you, if your exceptions are top pairing he will disappoint you. For his price tag and his abilities I think you did well in this trade.

 

[The Designer]

Did we keep our 3rd round pick or Senators?

 

[iFan]

He seems like a great guy, hopefully things work out better here for him.

 

[EpochLink]

Did we keep our 3rd round pick or Senators?

we have a 3rd round pick this year but we traded the Jets pick which we got form the Schmidt deal.

 

[BimJenning]

I'm pretty sure the big reason for the move was foot speed. Not high on Dermott, but he's clearly a significantly better skater than Hamonic, and probably less of a headache on the team, younger, and cheaper. Probably rather have the third, but at least I can see some logic in it.

 

[JohnHodgson]

Baertschi's career was cut short by concussions...no GM foresees that..a bit unfair..IMO......

JR (or PA) has only made two minor trades...Its a bit early to start anointing him to be Mr Shrewd Guy...Other than the Guddy trade, I never had a problem with most of Bennings trades...his biggest mistakes were in UFA.

Baertschi was a middle six forward who mostly played on the perimeter. He was a 40 point pace forward.

There was nothing special about this player. He was an okay stop gap for a while but using 2nd round picks to acquire stop gaps is terrible asset management.

 

[F A N]

Baertschi was a middle six forward who mostly played on the perimeter. He was a 40 point pace forward.

There was nothing special about this player. He was an okay stop gap for a while but using 2nd round picks to acquire stop gaps is terrible asset management.

The Canucks didn't use a 2nd round pick to acquire a stop gap. They used a 2nd round pick to acquire a former 13th overall pick who needed a change of scenery.

That's actually the type of trades the Canucks should be looking to make all the time- not necessarily trade 2nd round picks for but the team should identify talented players with upside whose development has stalled who the team can get back on track. They don't have to end up being star players or signed to big contracts. With Baertschi, he was clearly a solid middle 6 winger and the Canucks got him for his best prime years. For a late 2nd you get a young cost-controlled player with upside that is ready to step into the lineup? That's the type of deal a team doesn't mind making 9 out of 10 times.

 

[Elitersson]

by this logic you trade away multiple draft picks every year though. It seems like a very linear and basic way of thinking. I refuse to believe that going into drafts every year with less than 7 picks is a a recipe for long term success in a hard cap league.


the actual equation/comparison is the high variance and more volatile asset(draft pick) vs a “proven” NHL player with some upside as a long term effective role player


one asset has a higher chance of contributing nothing, but also offers a small chance at becoming a core long term asset

the other asset has a high chance of providing some value to your NHL team, but is basically at that stage where suddenly breaking out would be shocking.

I agree with your logic, though I believe Dermott has a better chance of being a long term asset than a 3rd round pick.

 

[RutherPlan]

Adding Rathbone and Dermott into the line up adds a lot of speed to the defence core.

 

[JohnHodgson]

The Canucks didn't use a 2nd round pick to acquire a stop gap. They used a 2nd round pick to acquire a former 13th overall pick who needed a change of scenery.

That's actually the type of trades the Canucks should be looking to make all the time- not necessarily trade 2nd round picks for but the team should identify talented players with upside whose development has stalled who the team can get back on track. They don't have to end up being star players or signed to big contracts. With Baertschi, he was clearly a solid middle 6 winger and the Canucks got him for his best prime years. For a late 2nd you get a young cost-controlled player with upside that is ready to step into the lineup? That's the type of deal a team doesn't mind making 9 out of 10 times.

LMAO.

Sven was a stop gap from the beginning. Jim wanted to acquire players in a specific age gap to help bridge the future core.


Spending a 2nd round pick (on a team that should have been rebuilding and accumulating picks) on a player who wore out his welcome with the organization that drafted him and soon was going to be on waivers, was a massive overpayment. Sven gave us some good years, but that 2nd round pick actually ended up to be Rasmus Andersson, a top 4 defenseman for the Flames.

There was no reason to overpay for Sven. If I recall correctly, Brad Treliving was shocked that JB offered a 2nd rounder and said no other team did.

That trade not only took away a 2nd rounder from us for mediocre production that can easily be found through free agency, we also gifted a division rival a high pick that ended up being a top 4 defenseman.

The trade was a massive L... Jim made a bad bet and it didn't work out (unsurprisingly). This is some massive copium to say that's the type of deal a team doesn't mind making 9 out of 10 times.

 

[Shareefruck]

I get everyone is scarred from the Benning era, but the 'sky is falling' narrative here is laughable (stopped reading after the first 3 pages)

Seriously, a 3rd round pick has a ~15% chance of becoming a Dermott.

Dermott has good speed which Canucks sorely lack, he has experience on both sides, he's fairly young, he's half the price of Hamonic, and he has solid underlying numbers. Maybe he works out here and maybe he doesn't, but this is a smart bet by Allvin and co.

This is such flawed reasoning that gets frequently tossed around. The value of a draft pick isn't equal to its most likely outcome. If you trade a lottery ticket for an amount less than its cost, the fact that less than its cost is still more than the most likely result of its winnings doesn't justify that exchange.

 

[MS]

This is such flawed reasoning that gets frequently tossed around. The value of a draft pick isn't equal to its most likely outcome. If you trade a lottery ticket for an amount less than its cost, the fact that less than its cost is still more than the most likely result of its winnings doesn't justify that exchange.

It's not perfect reasoning or the best way to look at it, but in the bigger picture it isn't wrong either.

Trading a non-lottery pick for a solid NHL player with some team control on a reasonable contract is almost always a win for the team getting the player. If you can trade a pick for a player you like with a good contract situation, you do that every time.