Proposal: VAN-PIT Mikheyev and Graves.

[Gurglesons]

Literally yes. Not sorta but exact definition top 4.

Sigh. Being lectured by the guy that thought Graves was a RHD...

Guess we can prove you wrong, again...

Graves has been used as a top four defenseman, largely when he was paired with Cale Makar and Dougie Hamilton. His TOI is greatly influenced by playing tons of PK minutes.

Last year he was not a top four defenseman on Jersey playing behind Severson, Marino, Hamilton, and Siegenthaler.

This year in PIT he was brought in to be a top four defenseman, but did not last in that role around December.

So, yes.. I guess hypothetically he can be used as a "top four defenseman" when you pair him with the best defenseman in the game in Cale Makar and a top ten guy in Dougie Hamilton, but nobody in their right mind would call him a top four defenseman that actually has watched him.

Also, let's be honest. When Colorado AND Jersey are letting you go for basically nothing, maybe that should tell you something?

 

[Rowlet]

He's been a top 4 every season of his career except his rookie yr.

What the other guy said ^

 

[biturbo19]

And to clarify any Canucks fans thinking me saying no for the Penguins means this is a good deal for them, I think this deal makes no sense for them because they're not getting nearly enough value to justify taking on Graves' deal. I think Smith straight up for Mikheyev isn't all that far off in value, maybe Smith had a slight advantage due to having 1 less year but it's a pretty marginal difference. Smith's value at $3 million is probably only a 3rd, so this deal is basically Graves and a 3rd for Mikheyev. I don't think anyone would argue that's a good deal for the Canucks.

I'm just saying that it doesn't make any sense for the Penguins because bad teams don't sink value to get out of bad deals. They're far better off either just trading Smith at $3 million for that 3rd and keeping Graves or trying to combine Smith at $3 million and Graves for either a better player with a worse contract (Huberdeau) or a similarly bad contract that fills a need for the Penguins (Kotkaniemi). This deal has the Penguins getting the better bad deal with Mikheyev, but there really isn't much of a reason for them to be targeting that. Whether a bad deal is 2 years versus 5 years doesn't particularly matter because the Penguins are going to suck in 3 years regardless.

The Canucks shouldn't be committing to bringing in a player coming off a bad year that is signed for an additional 5 years, while the Penguins shouldn't be sinking value to get out of a bad deal for a better but still bad deal. I just don't think it makes sense for either side.

Mikheyev contract is a "no go". Huberdeau is okay though. That's fine. One of the absolute worst contracts in the league.

Not that Hubby is totally useless. But jeepers that's a terrifying contract. That's not even "short term" like you're talking about..,that's forever term.

Sigh. Being lectured by the guy that thought Graves was a RHD...

Guess we can prove you wrong, again...

Graves has been used as a top four defenseman, largely when he was paired with Cale Makar and Dougie Hamilton. His TOI is greatly influenced by playing tons of PK minutes.

Last year he was not a top four defenseman on Jersey playing behind Severson, Marino, Hamilton, and Siegenthaler.

This year in PIT he was brought in to be a top four defenseman, but did not last in that role around December.

So, yes.. I guess hypothetically he can be used as a "top four defenseman" when you pair him with the best defenseman in the game in Cale Makar and a top ten guy in Dougie Hamilton, but nobody in their right mind would call him a top four defenseman that actually has watched him.

Also, let's be honest. When Colorado AND Jersey are letting you go for basically nothing, maybe that should tell you something?

I think this is really missing the boat on what Graves is. Like Zadorov...he's a big, aggressive defenceman. Not a "stay at home" guy and he never have been.


They tried him with Letang it failed. They tried him with Karlsson...it failed. Where he's actually thrived was with a very passive puck mover. Marino. That's the best hockey he played.

 

[Gurglesons]

Mikheyev contract is a "no go". Huberdeau is okay though. That's fine. One of the absolute worst contracts in the league.

Not that Hubby is totally useless. But jeepers that's a terrifying contract. That's not even "short term" like you're talking about..,that's forever term.





I think this is really missing the boat on what Graves is. Like Zadorov...he's a big, aggressive defenceman. Not a "stay at home" guy and he never have been.


They tried him with Letang it failed. They tried him with Karlsson...it failed. Where he's actually thrived was with a very passive puck mover. Marino. That's the best hockey he played.

@SteveCangialosi123 tell this guy about how Graves “thrived” with John Marino.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Mikheyev contract is a "no go". Huberdeau is okay though. That's fine. One of the absolute worst contracts in the league.

Not that Hubby is totally useless. But jeepers that's a terrifying contract. That's not even "short term" like you're talking about..,that's forever term.

But like I’ve said, it being a bad contract isn’t the relevant part here. Huberdeau’s contract is ghastly bad, but nothing after like 2-3 years for the Penguins matter because they’re going to suck at that point. Having the extra years on the Huberdeau deal doesn’t matter as long as he makes the team better in those next 2-3 years. It’s the same logic the Penguins used when they brought in EK at $10 million last year.

The issue with Mikheyev isn’t that his contract is somehow worse than Huberdeau’s, it’s obviously not. It’s that he fills no role for the Penguins. The issue with the OP is that it has the Penguins basically losing short term (extra dead cap space) to get out of a bad deal, when the Penguins should be doing the opposite and taking short term wins to be taking on bad deals. They’re the kind of team that should be trying to take on deals like Graves for assets, not get out of deals like Graves for assets.

 

[NOTENOUGHRYJOTHINGS]

If someone said they wanted to model after the 2020 Aves I would assume they mean lock up a superstar to a below market deal and have a superstar defenseman on an ELC.

Not covet a blue line of Cole Zadorov and Graves.

 

[SEALBound]

I wouldn't do this as a Penguins fan. I don't like our left side if they let Graves go only to add Mikheyev. If they add someone else that would be a more productive player, then it might make sense to dip back into the FA market for a LD.

Here's the thing that a lot of people are missing about Graves...the guy is being paid market value. His historic and current level of play are still consistent with his cap hit and contract. You aren't going to the FA market and getting an equivalent player for less.

The best you could hope is paying a lesser dman less money and hoping that he hits a level of higher performance.

This whole "you need to pay to dump Graves" or "you need to retain 50%!" is just non-sense in reality.

 

[DesertPenguin]

Because their 3rd line should be O'Connor-Eller-Puustinen, or with a better 3C pushing Eller to 4C. They need a 1st line LW.

Their lineup right now should be:

XXXX-Crosby-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Rakell
O'Connor-XXXXX-Puustinen

Mikheyev doesn't serve any sort of role in this lineup. Not only that, but he's also kinda terrible at this point.

The ideal scenario here is one of Ponomarev or Poulin grab 3C out of camp, and Eller plays 4C. If that falls through, you have Eller at 3C, one of those two or Acciari at 4C, and you look for a center upgrade mid season if the situation does not improve. I think they will try to exhaust the internal options here at 3C before going out of house. There's also enough cheap guys under contract (Acciari, Nieto, Gruden, Puljijarvi) to fill out the 4th.

I agree 100% that the glaring hole on this roster is that 1LW, and there's almost no contract we couldn't fit in that slot without shipping out anyone other than Smith, even with retention. You could also make that a RW too, with Rakell moving to the LW.

I'm convinced Dubas is going to ship out Smith and go big game hunting on the W. Reinhart, Guentzel, Stamkos, even Marner.

Im looking at about 7.7m in cap space for a 23 man roster with Smith on it. Subtract him and youve got 12.7m to play around. You could add Marner full rate and still have 1.7m to play with. Maybe go upgrade POJ.

 

[Johnsie19]

Sigh. Being lectured by the guy that thought Graves was a RHD...

Guess we can prove you wrong, again...

Graves has been used as a top four defenseman, largely when he was paired with Cale Makar and Dougie Hamilton. His TOI is greatly influenced by playing tons of PK minutes.

Last year he was not a top four defenseman on Jersey playing behind Severson, Marino, Hamilton, and Siegenthaler.

This year in PIT he was brought in to be a top four defenseman, but did not last in that role around December.

So, yes.. I guess hypothetically he can be used as a "top four defenseman" when you pair him with the best defenseman in the game in Cale Makar and a top ten guy in Dougie Hamilton, but nobody in their right mind would call him a top four defenseman that actually has watched him.

Also, let's be honest. When Colorado AND Jersey are letting you go for basically nothing, maybe that should tell you something?

Ahh yes getting the handedness of a defensemen in another conference is in fact a cardinal sin haha love it.

You can dress it up any way you like the numbers are the numbers. Just look at the average TOI. If you're in the top 4 you're a top 4 defenseman technically speaking. Sure you could maybe not qualify on a particularly bad defense core but he's been top 4 mins on 3 different teams.

PK is a huge part of being a defenseman. I like how you just to negate this to serve your argument.

Next argument...He'd played with great players. Yes that is generally what you do with a defensive dman. Play them with offensive dmen.

He played the same as Severson, who of course played PP which doesn't count cause anyone can play powerplay. See your logic?

I don't think any of the teams that let him go did so willingly. It's a hard cap league. Certainly Colorado would have loved to keep him, as would New Jersey who fell off completely this yr.

 

[Gurglesons]

Ahh yes getting the handedness of a defensemen in another conference is in fact a cardinal sin haha love it.

You can dress it up any way you like the numbers are the numbers. Just look at the average TOI. If you're in the top 4 you're a top 4 defenseman technically speaking. Sure you could maybe not qualify on a particularly bad defense core but he's been top 4 mins on 3 different teams.

PK is a huge part of being a defenseman. I like how you just to negate this to serve your argument.

Next argument...He'd played with great players. Yes that is generally what you do with a defensive dman. Play them with offensive dmen.

He played the same as Severson, who of course played PP which doesn't count cause anyone can play powerplay. See your logic?

I don't think any of the teams that let him go did so willingly. It's a hard cap league. Certainly Colorado would have loved to keep him, as would New Jersey who fell off completely this yr.

Andrew MacDonald was a top 4 D based on TOI.

Cody Ceci is a top 4 D based on TOI.

Using TOI to determine if someone is or isn't something is fine, but I think there needs to be more context and understanding about why or how they actually succeed in those minutes.

 

[Johnsie19]

View attachment 874465

Andrew MacDonald was a top 4 D based on TOI.

View attachment 874466

Cody Ceci is a top 4 D based on TOI.

Using TOI to determine if someone is or isn't something is fine, but I think there needs to be more context and understanding about why or how they actually succeed in those minutes.

As I said you can make the argument that some guys on very bad d cores are not top 4 quality despite playing the minutes.

The argument doesn't really work when you've done it on 3 different teams. All of which had decent to strong defensive depth.

 

[Gurglesons]

As I said you can make the argument that some guys on very bad d cores are not top 4 quality despite playing the minutes.

The argument doesn't really work when you've done it on 3 different teams. All of which had decent to strong defensive depth.

Ask any Devils or Avs fan how they feel about Ryan Graves.

 

[biturbo19]

I wouldn't do this as a Penguins fan. I don't like our left side if they let Graves go only to add Mikheyev. If they add someone else that would be a more productive player, then it might make sense to dip back into the FA market for a LD.

Here's the thing that a lot of people are missing about Graves...the guy is being paid market value. His historic and current level of play are still consistent with his cap hit and contract. You aren't going to the FA market and getting an equivalent player for less.

The best you could hope is paying a lesser dman less money and hoping that he hits a level of higher performance.

This whole "you need to pay to dump Graves" or "you need to retain 50%!" is just non-sense in reality.

It's so fascinating how split Penguins fans seem to be on Graves.

I think what you're saying is very reasonable...which is why i makes sense to me from the other end. But you've also got people who think he's a "dump at all costs" guy and and the whole gamut in between.


I look at a guy like Zadorov who is broadly similar...and see someone asking for potentially $6M. Graves isn't an identical player, but he's got a lot of the same qualities and he's very similar in style and being that sort of #4/5 Tweener who has largely seemed to figure it out if you can give him the right partner, to be a true heavy minutes Top-4D.

The ideal scenario here is one of Ponomarev or Poulin grab 3C out of camp, and Eller plays 4C. If that falls through, you have Eller at 3C, one of those two or Acciari at 4C, and you look for a center upgrade mid season if the situation does not improve. I think they will try to exhaust the internal options here at 3C before going out of house. There's also enough cheap guys under contract (Acciari, Nieto, Gruden, Puljijarvi) to fill out the 4th.

I agree 100% that the glaring hole on this roster is that 1LW, and there's almost no contract we couldn't fit in that slot without shipping out anyone other than Smith, even with retention. You could also make that a RW too, with Rakell moving to the LW.

I'm convinced Dubas is going to ship out Smith and go big game hunting on the W. Reinhart, Guentzel, Stamkos, even Marner.

Im looking at about 7.7m in cap space for a 23 man roster with Smith on it. Subtract him and youve got 12.7m to play around. You could add Marner full rate and still have 1.7m to play with. Maybe go upgrade POJ.

If Dubas goes out big game hunting, that definitely changes the landscape. I could very much see him going hard after Marner. But doesn't that still change things in terms of needing to move cap around? And at the end of the day...Graves is a good player, but he clearly just doesn't fit with Letang or Karlsson. And that's not changing any time soon. So you can't have that kind of salary on your third pairing.

 

[biturbo19]

@SteveCangialosi123 tell this guy about how Graves “thrived” with John Marino.

Is there some real deep stuff that indicates Graves somehow wasn't a part of a darn good matchup pairing with Marino?

 

[Gurglesons]

Is there some real deep stuff that indicates Graves somehow wasn't a part of a darn good matchup pairing with Marino?

I don't think it's deep. Ryan Graves got absolutely rocked as a Devil.

 

[biturbo19]

I don't think it's deep. Ryan Graves got absolutely rocked as a Devil.

He absolutely murdered the toughest matchups with Marino last year though. So there's that...


He got killed as a Devil previously while playing with Douglas Hamilton who is a useless flake and obviously a poor fit. I think this issue with Graves is fundamentally that people believe he's a "stay at home" defenceman. And he's not. At all. So the partner and system is pretty important. But he's not a useless player. Even if he's utterly useless to the Penguins with Letang and Karlsson on the other side.

 

[Gurglesons]

He absolutely murdered the toughest matchups with Marino last year though. So there's that...


He got killed as a Devil previously while playing with Douglas Hamilton who is a useless flake and obviously a poor fit. I think this issue with Graves is fundamentally that people believe he's a "stay at home" defenceman. And he's not. At all. So the partner and system is pretty important. But he's not a useless player. Even if he's utterly useless to the Penguins with Letang and Karlsson on the other side.

He had a 2.31 GA per 60 at 5v5 which was 54th out of 148 defensemen that played more than 1000 5v5 minutes.

 

[Empoleon8771]

He had a 2.31 GA per 60 at 5v5 which was 54th out of 148 defensemen that played more than 1000 5v5 minutes.

Idk that looks fairly solid to good?

Considering you shit talk Marino as a nothing piece anytime you get the chance to, it doesn't really make any sense to argue that both Marino and Graves suck despite them having what looks like fairly good numbers as a pair together.

 

[biturbo19]

He had a 2.31 GA per 60 at 5v5 which was 54th out of 148 defensemen that played more than 1000 5v5 minutes.

There are 32 teams in the league. With 6 defencemen each every game. Being 54th in that one metric is...probably not saying what you think that it is saying. Particularly when accounting for matchup weight.

 

[Gurglesons]

There are 32 teams in the league. With 6 defencemen each every game. Being 54th in that one metric is...probably not saying what you think that it is saying.

You said he "murdered" the competition.

 

[biturbo19]

You said he "murdered" the competition.

The Devils absolutely cruised to the playoffs in that season, with whatever Graves-Marino did as their primary matchup pairing.


I'd qualify that as competition murdered.

 

[Gurglesons]

The Devils absolutely cruised to the playoffs in that season, with whatever Graves-Marino did as their primary matchup pairing.


I'd qualify that as competition murdered.

Marino was 100% carrying Graves that season. It all came crashing down in the playoffs.

Hopefully you can acquire Ryan Graves though.

 

[biturbo19]

Marino was 100% carrying Graves that season. It all came crashing down in the playoffs.

Hopefully you can acquire Ryan Graves though.

Then why did Marino turn to absolutely shit when Graves left?

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

I'd rather kick myself in the dick.

 

[biturbo19]

I'd rather kick myself in the dick.

That's kind of the premise of this deal.