Confirmed with Link: [VAN/NJD] Canucks trade G Cory Schneider to Devils for 9th Overall Pick - Part II

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YouCantYandleThis*

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I'm going to ignore the "Schneider is unproven rhetoric" Canucks fans fought that for 2+ years with Schneider, now it's coming from Canucks fans... I want no part in that...

You're a fan, and we're supposed to be positive about the moves our team makes. My point is that from an outsider perspective (and the odd Canucks fan like myself) this whole situation was an embarrassment. Could it work out? Maybe. Will it? I doubt it. The Luongo I see hasn't been elite in 2-3 years and has enough playoff demons to haunt an entire mansion. Every move he makes will be under the microscope. All the blame to him and Gillis. More pressure than he's succumbed to before, with a deteriorating skill-set to back it up.

We're banking on Luongo to rise above the pressure (maybe more pressure thane he's buckled under multiple times before) and perform at a level he hasn't touched in 2-3 years (IMO). That's asking a lot.

Not really.

We're banking on him playing well enough to win a cup. We have no idea how good he'll have to be yet with the revised team/system we have.

Was the situation handled embarrassingly? Absolutely. But why exactly would Luongo get all the blame? Unless, you know, he plays badly?

The only people that will be blaming Luongo will be the same people that harped on him for every goal against when they wanted Schneider in net.

Unless, you know, he plays badly.
 

Reign Nateo

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I don't think it would even be that difficult for it to work out for the Canucks. Let's say Schneider settles in as a 930 ES Top 5 goaltender for another decade, and in 2 years he's making 7-ish million a year.

If Luongo maintains even 925 ES goaltending for 5-6 years and Horvat turns into a 1st line talent (not Bergeron quality, but just a 1st line talent) in 3-4 years, that's a saw off in my opinion.

I'm not sure I like those odds either, but I don't think it's fair to call this a "disaster" just yet. Goaltending is funny business. There are very few guys consistent enough to bank on, but Luongo has been one of 'em. Team just needs to stop taking so many penalties imo.

There's more to it than ES stats. You're quite obviously cherry-picking that stat as it looks favourably on Luongo at this point. He's good on first shots, we know that, it's the other facets of the game where his shortcoming shine through. Including rebounds and leg speed, which kill his PK stats. And if you can't make saves on the PK, you're done. I beleive discipline and PK is used as a Luongo scapegoat earlier in this thread, well he's actually a big part of the problem.

ES SV% is a small part of the puzzle.

Here's a link to a 1-game scouting report between Luongo and Quick in the playoffs. The difference? Quick controls his rebounds and makes saves on the PK. The difference in the series.

http://www.boucherscouting.com/2012/04/one-game-scouting-report-for-roberto.html
 

Reign Nateo

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Not really.

We're banking on him playing well enough to win a cup. We have no idea how good he'll have to be yet with the revised team/system we have.

Was the situation handled embarrassingly? Absolutely. But why exactly would Luongo get all the blame? Unless, you know, he plays badly?

The only people that will be blaming Luongo will be the same people that harped on him for every goal against when they wanted Schneider in net.

Unless, you know, he plays badly.

Not sure what you're getting at here...
 

opendoor

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There's more to it than ES stats. You're quite obviously cherry-picking that stat as it looks favourably on Luongo at this point. He's good on first shots, we know that, it's the other facets of the game where his shortcoming shine through. Including rebounds and leg speed, which kill his PK stats. And if you can't make saves on the PK, you're done.

ES SV% is a small part of the puzzle.

Not really. A bad PK can make even a great goalie look terrible. Look at Schneider in this year's playoffs. Over the past few years he's had probably the best shorthanded numbers of any goalie in the league. But throw him behind a PK that looks like 4 chickens running around with their heads cut off and he allows 6 goals on 26 SH shots.

Here's a link to a 1-game scouting report between Luongo and Quick in the playoffs. The difference? Quick controls his rebounds and makes saves on the PK. The difference in the series.

http://www.boucherscouting.com/2012/...r-roberto.html

It didn't hurt that Quick only had to face 4 SH shots none of which were scoring chances in that game.
 

Scurr

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There's more to it than ES stats. You're quite obviously cherry-picking that stat as it looks favourably on Luongo at this point. He's good on first shots, we know that, it's the other facets of the game where his shortcoming shine through. Including rebounds and leg speed, which kill his PK stats. And if you can't make saves on the PK, you're done.

ES SV% is a small part of the puzzle.

Here's a link to a 1-game scouting report between Luongo and Quick in the playoffs. The difference? Quick controls his rebounds and makes saves on the PK. The difference in the series.

http://www.boucherscouting.com/2012/04/one-game-scouting-report-for-roberto.html

I agree with a lot of this. Clearly PK save percentage is a volatile stat but that doesn't make a goalies play on the PK any less important. Interesting to note Schneider's PK save percentage behind the same PK.

Not really. A bad PK can make even a great goalie look terrible. Look at Schneider in this year's playoffs. Over the past few years he's had probably the best shorthanded numbers of any goalie in the league. But throw him behind a PK that looks like 4 chickens running around with their heads cut off and he allows 6 goals on 26 SH shots.

Cory clearly wasn't playing as well as he usually does. I wouldn't blame it on the PK.
 

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There is no rhetoric. That's just how goaltending works, generally speaking. If you don't want to address it, that's fine. Given the tenor of your post, you accusing anyone of using rhetoric rings a bit hollow.

Luongo has been a 930 ES goaltender in the regular season and in the post-season for the past decade. His performance is remarkably consistent. What's not consistent is the team's play in front of him (lack of discipline, critical PK meltdowns, etc.). Luongo has certainly had some bad games.

The only way I care about these narratives at all is if the team/Luongo buy into them. If they do, it's an issue. That's it. Otherwise it's just hot air. Hopefully having a new coach will give the team a fresh perspective on post-season success and they'll ignore all that baggage people thrust at them.

Please explain the bolded and see my post above in response to you only using ES SV%.
 

Proto

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Not really. A bad PK can make even a great goalie look terrible. Look at Schneider in this year's playoffs. Over the past few years he's had probably the best shorthanded numbers of any goalie in the league. But throw him behind a PK that looks like 4 chickens running around with their heads cut off and he allows 6 goals on 26 SH shots.



It didn't hurt that Quick only had to face 4 SH shots none of which were scoring chances in that game.

Yes. And for added perspective, you'd need probably 10-12 years of SH save data to have a meaningfully representative sample of 4v5 save percentage. That's impossible to control for with the changes you'd see in the goaltender's team and ability as he ages.

I don't doubt at all that SH play might involve slightly different strengths for a goaltender, and that one goaltender or another might perform better. But I'm not in any way convinced it would be a big enough gap to make much of a difference over the course of so few shots. It might, and I find stuff like S/60 at 4 vs 5 interesting, but ES play has worked out pretty well for measuring goalies so far.

Which isn't to say a guy having a ridiculously good 4 on 5 goaltending season like Schneider did a couple years ago isn't impressive. It's super impressive. It's just not sustainable. That doesn't mean you can't marvel at it when it's happening. That's what's awesome about sports...
 

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Yes. And for added perspective, you'd need probably 10-12 years of SH save data to have a meaningfully representative sample of 4v5 save percentage. That's impossible to control for with the changes you'd see in the goaltender's team and ability as he ages.

I don't doubt at all that SH play might involve slightly different strengths for a goaltender, and that one goaltender or another might perform better. But I'm not in any way convinced it would be a big enough gap to make much of a difference over the course of so few shots. It might, and I find stuff like S/60 at 4 vs 5 interesting, but ES play has worked out pretty well for measuring goalies so far.

Which isn't to say a guy having a ridiculously good 4 on 5 goaltending season like Schneider did a couple years ago isn't impressive. It's super impressive. It's just not sustainable. That doesn't mean you can't marvel at it when it's happening. That's what's awesome about sports...

Schneider's PK SV% is not some fluke or anomoly. It's because he has elite leg speed, reactions and does not quit. And it's for the direct opposite of those reasons Luongo will likely only get worse on the PK. His legs are slow, he does not battle and gives up easily.
 

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Frankly, this is what we're banking on from Luongo to have a shot at the Cup with this trade:

- He reports to camp on time and happy.
- He's in great shape mentally and physically. Prepared for the onslaught starting Day 1 at camp.
- His leg speed and compete level has improved at 34 years old.
- He's happy to be here.
- He plays well right from the hop. If he starts off poorly, there will be a **** storm.
- He's a consistant performer throughout the season and does not clash with John Tortarella.
- Tortarella's system needs to adopted and mastered immeditely.
- Answer questions and deal with the Olympics. Very good chance he's not the starter, he has to face up to that too.
- Then the playoffs, should all of this go right, it starts all over again in April. Luongo will have to once again face his demons. The Hawks and Kings will be waiting. Fans everywhere ready to crown him one of the biggest jokes tp play net in NHL history.
- Then we need him to provide championship level goaltending from start to finish in the playoffs. Something he has not yet done.

Oh yeah, if Bo Horvat becomes anything less than Mike Richards or Patrice Bergeron than the trade failed too. So there's that.

In short, we're banking on a lot of things to go right if we're going to be realistic about it. It's not hopeless, it's all in Luongo's hands (or head) and so far, the way he's responded, does not give me a lot of hope.

Change that list to Schneider and it's a lot shorter and more positive.
 

Proto

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Schneider's PK SV% is not some fluke or anomoly. It's because he has elite leg speed, reactions and does not quit. And it's for the direct opposite of those reasons Luongo will likely only get worse on the PK. His legs are slow, he does not battle and gives up easily.

Are you a goalie scout? My problem with this kind of analysis is that it lends itself to forming a narrative based on results. Of course you can look at Schneider and come up with any number of reasons for his likely anomalous/unsustainable play at 4v5. But if you look at these kind of goaltending projections based on scouting on leg speed, blocking, tracking, etc. when they're done before goaltenders are in the league, they're so clearly wrong -- as they often are for position players, but the swing-and-miss rate on goalies is... high. People called Marek Schwarz a bigger, more athletic Dominek Hasek.

The guy that runs the goalie guild wrote some big post last summer about what a washed-up loser Bobrovsky was and then deleted it from the site shortly before this year's award season, rather than stand by his "analysis".

That isn't to say goaltenders don't have unique skillsets. I just tend to think most coaches are smart enough -- either consciously or subconsciously -- to tailor their team play to minimize or maximize the play of the guy in net. So even if there are differences, they're probably mostly at the margins. Plus there's obviously a learning/development curve at every position, but there are so few goaltenders compared to position players that it's harder to get huge data pools to draw from, I think. Heck, we don't even have ES SV data for guys like Roy from their prime years!

Edit: also worth noting that the sort of analysis you're providing is the same analysis that leads "experts" everywhere to keep anointing Carey Price the best young goaltender in the world, even if the results haven't matched up to that at all. Goaltending is still a whole lot of unknowns.
 
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Proto

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Frankly, this is what we're banking on from Luongo to have a shot at the Cup with this trade:

- He reports to camp on time and happy.
- He's in great shape mentally and physically. Prepared for the onslaught starting Day 1 at camp.
- His leg speed and compete level has improved at 34 years old.
- He's happy to be here.
- He plays well right from the hop. If he starts off poorly, there will be a **** storm.
- He's a consistant performer throughout the season and does not clash with John Tortarella.
- Tortarella's system needs to adopted and mastered immeditely.
- Answer questions and deal with the Olympics. Very good chance he's not the starter, he has to face up to that too.
- Then the playoffs, should all of this go right, it starts all over again in April. Luongo will have to once again face his demons. The Hawks and Kings will be waiting. Fans everywhere ready to crown him one of the biggest jokes tp play net in NHL history.
- Then we need him to provide championship level goaltending from start to finish in the playoffs. Something he has not yet done.

Oh yeah, if Bo Horvat becomes anything less than Mike Richards or Patrice Bergeron than the trade failed too. So there's that.

In short, we're banking on a lot of things to go right if we're going to be realistic about it. It's not hopeless, it's all in Luongo's hands (or head) and so far, the way he's responded, does not give me a lot of hope.

Change that list to Schneider and it's a lot shorter and more positive.

Riiiight. And I'm the one using "rhetoric" :laugh:
 

Scurr

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Are you a goalie scout? My problem with this kind of analysis is that it lends itself to forming a narrative based on results. Of course you can look at Schneider and come up with any number of reasons for his likely anomalous/unsustainable play at 4v5. But if you look at these kind of goaltending projections based on scouting on leg speed, blocking, tracking, etc. when they're done before goaltenders are in the league, they're so clearly wrong -- as they often are for position players, but the swing-and-miss rate on goalies is... high. People called Marek Schwarz a bigger, more athletic Dominek Hasek.

The guy that runs the goalie guild wrote some big post last summer about what a washed-up loser Bobrovsky was and then deleted it from the site shortly before this year's award season, rather than stand by his "analysis".

That isn't to say goaltenders don't have unique skillsets. I just tend to think most coaches are smart enough -- either consciously or subconsciously -- to tailor their team play to minimize or maximize the play of the guy in net. So even if there are differences, they're probably mostly at the margins. Plus there's obviously a learning/development curve at every position, but there are so few goaltenders compared to position players that it's harder to get huge data pools to draw from, I think. Heck, we don't even have ES SV data for guys like Roy from their prime years!

Edit: also worth noting that the sort of analysis you're providing is the same analysis that leads "experts" everywhere to keep anointing Carey Price the best young goaltender in the world, even if the results haven't matched up to that at all. Goaltending is still a whole lot of unknowns.

You don't need to be a scout to compare these two goalies. We've watched them behind the same team for 3 seasons. Cory is better technically and is the better athlete. Luongo plays the angles better, he's probably the best in the league at finding an angle. These strengths and weaknesses show up in the stats. Completely ignoring PK save percentage because it's volatile is very convenient to your argument but doesn't accurately reflect their play. Schneider may not be able to maintain that level of play on the PK but he's clearly a better PK goalie than Lu. He's better at shootouts. It's not a mystery why, he's a better athlete that moves better in the crease.
 

Verviticus

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You don't need to be a scout to compare these two goalies. We've watched them behind the same team for 3 seasons. Cory is better technically and is the better athlete. Luongo plays the angles better, he's probably the best in the league at finding an angle. These strengths and weaknesses show up in the stats. Completely ignoring PK save percentage because it's volatile is very convenient to your argument but doesn't accurately reflect their play. Schneider may not be able to maintain that level of play on the PK but he's clearly a better PK goalie than Lu. He's better at shootouts. It's not a mystery why, he's a better athlete that moves better in the crease.

well if cory is better at shootouts, which involve almost entirely north-south puck motion, and he's also better at the pk, which involves more east-west puck motion, when do 'angles' give luongo the step up? the powerplay?

not to mention i just straight up don't agree with some of the things you've said. how do you qualify that luongo has some of the best angling in the league. how does being good at that thing show up in the stats?
 

Proto

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You don't need to be a scout to compare these two goalies. We've watched them behind the same team for 3 seasons. Cory is better technically and is the better athlete. Luongo plays the angles better, he's probably the best in the league at finding an angle. These strengths and weaknesses show up in the stats. Completely ignoring PK save percentage because it's volatile is very convenient to your argument but doesn't accurately reflect their play. Schneider may not be able to maintain that level of play on the PK but he's clearly a better PK goalie than Lu. He's better at shootouts. It's not a mystery why, he's a better athlete that moves better in the crease.

This is exactly what I mean. In terms of sample sizes, ideally you probably want at least 100+ games for a goalie to feel comfortable that it's representative at even strength. That's about 2500 shots. Schneider has faced less than 30 shootout shots in his career. Luongo has faced about 125 or so. You can certainly draw some conclusions from how things look with those numbers, but we're talking about dramatically small samples here.

You can make all sorts of narratives out of that. Luongo only let in 25 shots on the first 85 shootout shots he faced. He's let in 23 on the last 49. Did he get old and fall apart? Or as he faced more shooters, did teams get video on him and create a "book" so they could beat him more often? Maybe the same will happen to Schneider. Or maybe that's random statistical noise that means absolutely nothing.

It's fine to speculate and have an opinion (in fact, it's kind of fun). I just think people are a little... absolute when it comes to their opinion on the Canucks goaltending situation.
 

Scurr

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well if cory is better at shootouts, which involve almost entirely north-south puck motion, and he's also better at the pk, which involves more east-west puck motion, when do 'angles' give luongo the step up? the powerplay?

It doesn't matter which direction they're going, Cory moves better.

Lu's superior angle play shows up in how close he is in even strength save percentage to Cory despite Cory being the better athlete and at least as good technically.

Lu saves first shots as well as anyone in the league when he's playing well. Cory on the other hand can lose the angle, especially on the short side.

not to mention i just straight up don't agree with some of the things you've said. how do you qualify that luongo has some of the best angling in the league. how does being good at that thing show up in the stats?

Lu has been showing up near the top of goalie stats for the last 10 years. It's not because he's a great athlete or because he's huge. He's great at playing angles and blocking shots, it's not a secret. I say he may be the best in the league because I've seen him do it consistently well for so long. Is he really the best? I haven't watched enough of everyone else to know.
 

Wisp

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I remember post-LA Kevin Woodley was on Team 1040 and expressed last year that the GWG Stoll scored was shot right where the scouting report said you should shoot on Schneider.
 

Scurr

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This is exactly what I mean. In terms of sample sizes, ideally you probably want at least 100+ games for a goalie to feel comfortable that it's representative at even strength. That's about 2500 shots. Schneider has faced less than 30 shootout shots in his career. Luongo has faced about 125 or so. You can certainly draw some conclusions from how things look with those numbers, but we're talking about dramatically small samples here.

That's just burying your head in the sand and willfully ignoring that Schneider is the better athlete and moves better in the net. Hopefully we can revisit the debate with more data at some point.

I remember post-LA Kevin Woodley was on Team 1040 and expressed last year that the GWG Stoll scored was shot right where the scouting report said you should shoot on Schneider.

Top corner, right where the post and crossbar meet. I wish I would have thought of that.
 
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Verviticus

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That's just burying your head in the sand and willfully ignoring that Schneider is the better athlete and moves better in the net. Hopefully we can revisit the debate with more data at some point.

you havent actually cited any data relevant to that statement, though. just "Im not a scout, but i don't need to be". ok.

Lu has been showing up near the top of goalie stats for the last 10 years. It's not because he's a great athlete or because he's huge. He's great at playing angles and blocking shots, it's not a secret. I say he may be the best in the league because I've seen him do it consistently well for so long. Is he really the best? I haven't watched enough of everyone else to know.

this isnt a statistical argument. this is a narrative with no information that's useful for me. why post it?
 

Scurr

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you havent actually cited any data relevant to that statement, though. just "Im not a scout, but i don't need to be". ok.

The sample size for the data is too small. That doesn't make it useless, it makes it incomplete.


this isnt a statistical argument. this is a narrative with no information that's useful for me. why post it?

We're really limiting the talking points if we're sticking to statistical arguments with complete sample sizes.
 

Wisp

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Top corner, right where the post and crossbar meet. I wish I would have thought of that.
That's a fair criticism, though Luongo does handle the top part of the net better than Schneider does (freakishly long legs ftw?).
 

Verviticus

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The sample size for the data is too small. That doesn't make it useless, it makes it incomplete.




We're really limiting the talking points if we're sticking to statistical arguments with complete sample sizes.

You said "it shows it the stats". I asked how. You said ev sv. Ok. How?

I mean you implied you had stats for an argument when you said that
 

Scurr

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You said "it shows it the stats". I asked how. You said ev sv. Ok. How?

I explained how. Cory is the better athlete and better technical goalie. That should lead to a wide margin in even strength save percentage but doesn't because Lu is so good at saving the first shot. He's good at saving first shots because he plays angles so well.
 

Proto

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That's just burying your head in the sand and willfully ignoring that Schneider is the better athlete and moves better in the net. Hopefully we can revisit the debate with more data at some point.

No, I'm just asking for some sort of statistical basis for any of this. Do you have anything suggesting more "athletic" goalies are better in shootouts? Or that leg speed is determinative at 4 on 5? Otherwise it appears to me that you are looking at Luongo and Schneider and inferring causality without a strong logical argument behind it.

It's kind of the classic "If A, then B" logical equation. If A (it rains), then B (the ground is wet). You'll get yourself tangled up in knots if you do it backwards though. If B (the ground is wet), then A (it rained) is an illogical conclusion. Maybe the ground is wet because the sprinklers were on, or a firetruck just sprayed the ground, or whatever. When you start at the conclusion -- in this case that Schneider is better at 4 vs 5 and in shootouts than Luongo -- you have to be pretty careful in how you work backwards to the cause of that. That's what I see quite a bit of.

I like ES numbers because there's more of them, and thus far they're much more reliable. It took me awhile to wrap by head around it though, and people are free to disagree!
 
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