Raptors Discussion: v86: Raptors Discussion: NBA CHAMPIONS BABY!!!!!

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Lightsol

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Aug 2, 2005
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I'm laughing, because I looked up NBA info and found out that apparently, despite having little actual cap space left, the LA Lakers are apparently looking at BOTH the Klaw AND Kyrie...

Someone want to tell these idiot writers that there's no "historic team exception clause" that lets teams like the Celtics and the Lakers just straight ignore the salary cap and sign whoever they want?

"Kyrie wants to play with Anthony Davis" - Irrelevant. The REAL question is, does Kyrie want to play with AD so badly he's willing to take half what he could get just about anywhere else to play with him?
 

LaPlante94

Registered User
Apr 12, 2011
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I'm laughing, because I looked up NBA info and found out that apparently, despite having little actual cap space left, the LA Lakers are apparently looking at BOTH the Klaw AND Kyrie...

Someone want to tell these idiot writers that there's no "historic team exception clause" that lets teams like the Celtics and the Lakers just straight ignore the salary cap and sign whoever they want?

"Kyrie wants to play with Anthony Davis" - Irrelevant. The REAL question is, does Kyrie want to play with AD so badly he's willing to take half what he could get just about anywhere else to play with him?

The NBA salary cap rules are really weird. I'm sure one of the NBAs bigger followers on here could explain everything to you. It's one of the weirdest cap systems in all professional sports imo with their luxery tax, bird rights and etc where they can go over the cap.
 

LaPlante94

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Too early after the parade to ask what we might do with our one pick and for free agency if Kawhi stays and if he goes? Gasol pretty much sounded like if Kawhi doesn't re sign he might opt out of his final year.
 

The Nemesis

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Apr 11, 2005
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The NBA salary cap rules are really weird. I'm sure one of the NBAs bigger followers on here could explain everything to you. It's one of the weirdest cap systems in all professional sports imo with their luxery tax, bird rights and etc where they can go over the cap.

pre-trade the Lakers were at about $66m guaranteed salary for next season. Ball ($8.7m), Ingram ($7.3m) and Hart ($1.9m) mean they sent out about $18m in salary and took back Davis' $27m. In other words that trade was a net addition of $9m to their cap figure, putting them at $75m.

In theory, at a projected cap of around $109m that would leave them with $34m of cap space and that would be enough to absorb a max contract on any player with less than 10 years of NBA service time (the 7-9 year max is $32.7m for next season).

That said, it would also put them within spitting distance of said cap with literally only 5 players under guaranteed contract for next season (LeBron, Davis, Kuzma, Moritz Wagner, and Isaac Bonga. And if you're going "who?" to the last two, Wagner was the Lakers' 1st rounder last draft and went on to play 43 games for the season, hitting the court for an average of 10 minutes per game and doing little of note. Meanwhile Bonga was a 2nd round pick of Philly in 2018 and was shipped to the Lakers for cash and another 2nd rounder. He appears to have been little more than a garbage time/emergency fill-in PG)

In other words while the Lakers could technically pull off another max contract, it would mean that the team they put on the court was LeBron, Davis, this hypothetical max contract player, Kuzma, and an array of broken vets, cast-offs, and ringers from the local YMCA. They would actually have to deploy at least one veteran's minimum shambling corpse as a starter at the point or on the wing. And no matter how much people want to gush about this being a superstar driven league, that's not a winning proposition. You only need to look at the Warriors to see what happens when you're so top-heavy that you're left scrambling to fill your starting lineup and bench depth with whatever bargain bin scraps you can get to sign for the metaphorical peanuts that being at or over the cap permits.
 
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EpochLink

Canucks and Jets fan
Aug 1, 2006
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I'm laughing, because I looked up NBA info and found out that apparently, despite having little actual cap space left, the LA Lakers are apparently looking at BOTH the Klaw AND Kyrie...

Someone want to tell these idiot writers that there's no "historic team exception clause" that lets teams like the Celtics and the Lakers just straight ignore the salary cap and sign whoever they want?

"Kyrie wants to play with Anthony Davis" - Irrelevant. The REAL question is, does Kyrie want to play with AD so badly he's willing to take half what he could get just about anywhere else to play with him?

I guess you haven't noticed since 2007 that "Lebron needs help" mostly every year to get a championship.
 

The Nemesis

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Apr 11, 2005
88,337
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Too early after the parade to ask what we might do with our one pick and for free agency if Kawhi stays and if he goes? Gasol pretty much sounded like if Kawhi doesn't re sign he might opt out of his final year.

The Raptors pick is 59th. It's essentially irrelevant what they do with it because your odds at getting anything of real, tangible value at 59 are slim to none. Your best hope is either some draft-and-stash Euro lottery ticket or that maybe you get really lucky and end up picking a guy who fills a 13th-15th spot on your bench.

As for Free Agency:

If Kawhi stays and Gasol stays: Not much. Raps will be well over the cap in that scenario. So all they'll have is the taxpayer's Mid-Level Exception (I don't have the #s in front of me but I believe it's usually about a $5-6m contract) and veteran's minimum deals to fill out the roster

If Kawhi goes and Gasol stays: They'll probably be just barely under the cap which essentially makes it not a whole lot different than the above scenario.

If Kawhi goes and Gasol goes: They'll be somewhere between $80m and $90m depending on what shakes down with guys like Miller and Boucher and other pending FAs. It's enough to offer a nice, but not max salary deal to someone, which means probably not getting a marquee free agent but maybe being able to snag someone off the second tier and hope they step up. This scenario is also the one in which the Raptors potentially look to pivot depending on how next season starts off. If this Kawhi-less, Gasol-less Raptors team stumbles out of the gate with a championship hangover and a depleted roster, you could probably see everyone on the roster not named Siakam and Anunoby sold off to the highest bidders in an effort to stockpile younger talent and draft picks in order to head into the 2020-21 season with as much firepower as possible to kickstart a full-bore rebuild.

You'll have to forgive me, I haven't found a good list of free agents yet that's not either an annoying slideshow or a jumbled/alphabetical list of every name on an expiring contract. So I don't have good guesses of guys to target.

Personally in scenario #1 the one name I do know I'd love to see is the iconic one: Vince. He's said that next season is his last and I feel like it would be the perfect feel-good ending for him to come in and ride the wave of enthusiasm for this team and nostalgia for his time to the finish line of his career while playing essentially the role that Norm Powell should've been playing as a bench sparkplug. He may not have dunk champ athleticism anymore, but he can still shoot the 3 and lead and hustle.

In general the one name I did stumble on early in an alphabetical list that would be intriguing is Dragan Bender. He's going to be released by the Suns, who royally ****ed up his development since drafting him 4th overall in 2016 by basically never letting him play and sticking him behind the immediate gratification and ultimate futility of Marquese Chriss (who, coincidentally, is also being released to UFA status by Cleveland this summer) to scrap and fight for frontcourt minutes scraps. I feel like a more welcoming, low-pressure environment that could use a bench 4 that can shoot and pass would be beneficial to him, especially if Gasol were to be gone and the 4/5 spots suddenly thinned out. It's important to remember that even after 3 disappointing seasons, he'll only be 21 years old at the start of next season. He was a young draft pick in 2016.
 

LaPlante94

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Apr 12, 2011
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The Raptors pick is 59th. It's essentially irrelevant what they do with it because your odds at getting anything of real, tangible value at 59 are slim to none. Your best hope is either some draft-and-stash Euro lottery ticket or that maybe you get really lucky and end up picking a guy who fills a 13th-15th spot on your bench.

As for Free Agency:

If Kawhi stays and Gasol stays: Not much. Raps will be well over the cap in that scenario. So all they'll have is the taxpayer's Mid-Level Exception (I don't have the #s in front of me but I believe it's usually about a $5-6m contract) and veteran's minimum deals to fill out the roster

If Kawhi goes and Gasol stays: They'll probably be just barely under the cap which essentially makes it not a whole lot different than the above scenario.

If Kawhi goes and Gasol goes: They'll be somewhere between $80m and $90m depending on what shakes down with guys like Miller and Boucher and other pending FAs. It's enough to offer a nice, but not max salary deal to someone, which means probably not getting a marquee free agent but maybe being able to snag someone off the second tier and hope they step up. This scenario is also the one in which the Raptors potentially look to pivot depending on how next season starts off. If this Kawhi-less, Gasol-less Raptors team stumbles out of the gate with a championship hangover and a depleted roster, you could probably see everyone on the roster not named Siakam and Anunoby sold off to the highest bidders in an effort to stockpile younger talent and draft picks in order to head into the 2020-21 season with as much firepower as possible to kickstart a full-bore rebuild.

You'll have to forgive me, I haven't found a good list of free agents yet that's not either an annoying slideshow or a jumbled/alphabetical list of every name on an expiring contract. So I don't have good guesses of guys to target.

Personally in scenario #1 the one name I do know I'd love to see is the iconic one: Vince. He's said that next season is his last and I feel like it would be the perfect feel-good ending for him to come in and ride the wave of enthusiasm for this team and nostalgia for his time to the finish line of his career while playing essentially the role that Norm Powell should've been playing as a bench sparkplug. He may not have dunk champ athleticism anymore, but he can still shoot the 3 and lead and hustle.

In general the one name I did stumble on early in an alphabetical list that would be intriguing is Dragan Bender. He's going to be released by the Suns, who royally ****ed up his development since drafting him 4th overall in 2016 by basically never letting him play and sticking him behind the immediate gratification and ultimate futility of Marquese Chriss (who, coincidentally, is also being released to UFA status by Cleveland this summer) to scrap and fight for frontcourt minutes scraps. I feel like a more welcoming, low-pressure environment that could use a bench 4 that can shoot and pass would be beneficial to him, especially if Gasol were to be gone and the 4/5 spots suddenly thinned out. It's important to remember that even after 3 disappointing seasons, he'll only be 21 years old at the start of next season. He was a young draft pick in 2016.

I took a little look at the free agents list and names I liked were:

Beverley ( rumours say he wants to go back home to Chicago)
Vince Carter for obvious reasons
Terrence Ross
Bojan Bogdanovic
Bender
Ed Davis

Didn't really look at the higher priced guys so these are guys that I think wouldn't be too much
 

Gabriel426

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Jun 30, 2015
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10,419
I took a little look at the free agents list and names I liked were:

Beverley ( rumours say he wants to go back home to Chicago)
Vince Carter for obvious reasons
Terrence Ross
Bojan Bogdanovic
Bender
Ed Davis

Didn't really look at the higher priced guys so these are guys that I think wouldn't be too much
Imagine, Vince, Ross and Davis coming back to play for the Raptors.
Also, isn’t JV opting out to hit free agency?
 

93LEAFS

Registered User
Nov 7, 2009
33,976
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Toronto
The Raptors pick is 59th. It's essentially irrelevant what they do with it because your odds at getting anything of real, tangible value at 59 are slim to none. Your best hope is either some draft-and-stash Euro lottery ticket or that maybe you get really lucky and end up picking a guy who fills a 13th-15th spot on your bench.

As for Free Agency:

If Kawhi stays and Gasol stays: Not much. Raps will be well over the cap in that scenario. So all they'll have is the taxpayer's Mid-Level Exception (I don't have the #s in front of me but I believe it's usually about a $5-6m contract) and veteran's minimum deals to fill out the roster

If Kawhi goes and Gasol stays: They'll probably be just barely under the cap which essentially makes it not a whole lot different than the above scenario.

If Kawhi goes and Gasol goes: They'll be somewhere between $80m and $90m depending on what shakes down with guys like Miller and Boucher and other pending FAs. It's enough to offer a nice, but not max salary deal to someone, which means probably not getting a marquee free agent but maybe being able to snag someone off the second tier and hope they step up. This scenario is also the one in which the Raptors potentially look to pivot depending on how next season starts off. If this Kawhi-less, Gasol-less Raptors team stumbles out of the gate with a championship hangover and a depleted roster, you could probably see everyone on the roster not named Siakam and Anunoby sold off to the highest bidders in an effort to stockpile younger talent and draft picks in order to head into the 2020-21 season with as much firepower as possible to kickstart a full-bore rebuild.

You'll have to forgive me, I haven't found a good list of free agents yet that's not either an annoying slideshow or a jumbled/alphabetical list of every name on an expiring contract. So I don't have good guesses of guys to target.

Personally in scenario #1 the one name I do know I'd love to see is the iconic one: Vince. He's said that next season is his last and I feel like it would be the perfect feel-good ending for him to come in and ride the wave of enthusiasm for this team and nostalgia for his time to the finish line of his career while playing essentially the role that Norm Powell should've been playing as a bench sparkplug. He may not have dunk champ athleticism anymore, but he can still shoot the 3 and lead and hustle.

In general the one name I did stumble on early in an alphabetical list that would be intriguing is Dragan Bender. He's going to be released by the Suns, who royally ****ed up his development since drafting him 4th overall in 2016 by basically never letting him play and sticking him behind the immediate gratification and ultimate futility of Marquese Chriss (who, coincidentally, is also being released to UFA status by Cleveland this summer) to scrap and fight for frontcourt minutes scraps. I feel like a more welcoming, low-pressure environment that could use a bench 4 that can shoot and pass would be beneficial to him, especially if Gasol were to be gone and the 4/5 spots suddenly thinned out. It's important to remember that even after 3 disappointing seasons, he'll only be 21 years old at the start of next season. He was a young draft pick in 2016.
I wanted Chriss the year we drafted Poeltl, but with guys like him and Bender, I really have a hard time seeing how guys who couldn't crack the rotation of absolutely terrible teams finding a role here where they can get the minutes required to develop. Maybe Nurse would be able to coach them up and get them productive, but I'm very skeptical.

As for Vince. I don't like the whitewashing of history with him and don't want to see him back or his number retired. As incompetent as Babcock was, Vince still quit the team in such an unprofessional way, I can't overlook that. He told the Sonics our play. I forgive him and won't boo him when he comes back or chant VC sucks, but I don't think he should be honored.

Raptors have a real banner now, and a team leader who will get his number put up (Lowry). This team finally has a legitimate history. No need to whitewash history to try to give us some sort o "rosy" history with Vince. I'd also take down those damn division championship banners while I'm at it.
 

Gary Nylund

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Oct 10, 2013
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As for Vince. I don't like the whitewashing of history with him and don't want to see him back or his number retired. As incompetent as Babcock was, Vince still quit the team in such an unprofessional way, I can't overlook that. He told the Sonics our play. I forgive him and won't boo him when he comes back or chant VC sucks, but I don't think he should be honored.

Raptors have a real banner now, and a team leader who will get his number put up (Lowry). This team finally has a legitimate history. No need to whitewash history to try to give us some sort o "rosy" history with Vince. I'd also take down those damn division championship banners while I'm at it.

Agree 100%.
 

MLSE

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Jan 30, 2004
5,845
375
Windsor, Ontario
Awesome!



That's your opinion and that's fine. If you think Lebron is better, I have no problem with that, all I'm saying is that it's close (whereas Davis vs Thompson isn't close at all).

Your original post I believe said that:

Lebron>Curry and
Davis>Thompson

IMO one of those things is not like the others. Davis is way better then Thompson. The absolute top tier IMO has these players - Davis, Curry, Leonard and Lebron and putting them in some sort of order would be tough. I'm curious now - what order would you put them in? Is it debatable at all in you opinion?

Durant would be on that tier as well is not for his injury which means that he might never play at that level again. Some may put Harden and Giannis on that tier as well so whatever, opinions obviously vary. It is clear to me though that while Davis/Lebron/Curry are roughly on the same tier, Thompson is a clear notch or two below.

I'm amazed that Curry still doesn't get the respect the deserves. Not sure if it's because he's smaller than the other guys or what but he changed the way the game is played, he changed the way players are evaluated and there's never really been a player like him ever before. I'd stack his career up against anyone playing today not named Lebron and he's far from done yet.

Curry does get my respect as a top 8 player..

Id rank him behind Kawhi, Durant and Lebron for sure though.

I mean I could go..

Lebron > Curry
Davis >> Thompson

But either way, there is no way Curry is comparable to Lebron.

You're right where everything is opinion in the end but its pretty far out to put Curry ahead of or equal to Lebron.

I agree with your list, I think you named everyone I also believe.

My main point was that Kuzma is a solid 3rd piece when you consider the Lakers have potentially 2 top 5 players and I stick by that.

I think Steph Curry is great, you took it as a disrespect to Curry but I am saying it's a disrespect to Lebron.
 

hoglund

Registered User
Dec 8, 2013
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Canada
The NBA salary cap rules are really weird. I'm sure one of the NBAs bigger followers on here could explain everything to you. It's one of the weirdest cap systems in all professional sports imo with their luxery tax, bird rights and etc where they can go over the cap.
yeah it is similar to MLB where you can go over the cap, but pay a luxury tax, that's how the Yankees and Red Sox buy their world series and the Lakers may buy their championship.
 

TheTotalPackage

Registered User
Sep 14, 2006
7,407
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Now that the big celebrating is behind and things will settle, the obvious attention now is the draft and free agency, with of course we know what the number one priority is.

And with that, the more I think of it, the more I believe Kawhi is going to stay. I think he'd be a fool to leave at this point.
 

Deebo

Registered User
Jan 28, 2005
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Toronto
Now that the big celebrating is behind and things will settle, the obvious attention now is the draft and free agency, with of course we know what the number one priority is.

And with that, the more I think of it, the more I believe Kawhi is going to stay. I think he'd be a fool to leave at this point.

It's nice that it will be settled either way pretty quickly.
 

phillipmike

Registered User
Oct 27, 2009
12,524
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What? You cant compare both teams. This leafs team were/and still in rebuild mode after three years... Ujiri had 6 years to build after failures to reach finals...and went all in like most wanted him too.

Will Dubas do the same! I dunno. But I trust Shanny, it just takes time and the right mix to win.

Also the Blues have been building for 8 years.

Winning is how they will make the most money possible.

Was referring to the players - Nylander, Matthews and Marner.
 

Radiohead

Street Spirit
Sep 6, 2008
3,171
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yeah it is similar to MLB where you can go over the cap, but pay a luxury tax, that's how the Yankees and Red Sox buy their world series and the Lakers may buy their championship.

They’re not similar at all. The NBA actually has a salary cap AND a luxury tax line. So unlike in the MLB, rich teams can’t just go spending whatever they want.

This Lakers’ trade is actually a lot more complicated because of the timing. If the trade takes place as expected on July 6th, they will only have about 24 million in cap room (assuming Davis doesn’t waive his trade kicker) because of the empty roster spots cap holds. That’s nowhere near enough for a max deal, let alone two.
 
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Gary Nylund

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Oct 10, 2013
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Curry does get my respect as a top 8 player..

Id rank him behind Kawhi, Durant and Lebron for sure though.

I mean I could go..

Lebron > Curry
Davis >> Thompson

But either way, there is no way Curry is comparable to Lebron.

You're right where everything is opinion in the end but its pretty far out to put Curry ahead of or equal to Lebron.

I agree with your list, I think you named everyone I also believe.

My main point was that Kuzma is a solid 3rd piece when you consider the Lakers have potentially 2 top 5 players and I stick by that.

I think Steph Curry is great, you took it as a disrespect to Curry but I am saying it's a disrespect to Lebron.

IMO Curry is a top 4 player. KD's out of that conversation for now so for me it's Curry, Kawhi, Lebron and Davis. I'm not sure of the order but if if we had to draft players for one season, I'd say those should be the first 4 players picked. And whatever the order is, the gap between 1 and 4 isn't a big one.

And yes, Davis IMO is much more valuable to Thompson. Especially when we're discussing next season, his injury is serious one and the odds of him playing on the same level as those other guys next season is near zero.

I was never arguing Curry is better than (or even equal to) Lebron (though some may make that argument), I was just saying that it's not a slam dunk that Lebron is better for next season and that's largely due to his age and we just don't know how his inevitable decline will play out. Curry's only 3 years younger but at that age, that's pretty significant.

There is no way to tell which player will be better by the time the playoffs start. I have no problem with people disagreeing with that but if people are going to say that it's laughable to even think that Curry might be at Lebron's level then I strongly disagree. Call it disrespecting Curry or overrating Lebron or whatever else, I'll just say that IMO it's very wrong and leave it at that.
 

MLSE

Registered User
Jan 30, 2004
5,845
375
Windsor, Ontario
One more thing about tiers/lists/talking heads/experts. I don't place a ton of value on what talking heads think and there are few "experts" who have earned the title. I decided to have a quick look myself at some numbers, I don't have a ton of time to devote to this (and admittedly I'm no expert) but IMHO, if I had to look at one stat to make a decision, the first stat that comes to mind is VORP. Not sure what you think of this stat, maybe you have a list of better ones?

Here's how these two finished in NBA VORP rankings over the last 5 years:

2015 Curry 1, Lebron 5
2016 Curry 1, Lebron 3
2017 Lebron 3, Curry 6
2018 Lebron 1, Curry 14
2019 Both tied for 12th (with A. Davis)

Note that in 2018 Curry only played 51 games and in 2019, Curry played only 69 and Lebron only 55.
Using these numbers as a base, Curry had the edge for the first two years, Lebron had the edge for the next two and this year is gets murky with both players missing many games and ending up tied overall. How will next year look is anyone's guess.

Yeah, these two look like comparable players to me.

You are talking about VORP and Lebron owns spots 1,3,4,5,6 all time in a single playoffs. 5 out of the top 6 spots. He is literally in there 10 times before Curry shows up at 29th.

All time playoffs:

1.LeBron James33.09
2.Michael Jordan22.85
3.Tim Duncan18.59
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

PER in playoffs:

All time:

Lebron 3rd
Steph 17th

Lebron over 5 points ahead.

Single Playoffs:

Lebron:

2nd (2018)
5th
12th
19th
20th
23rd
44th
54th

Steph:
91st

8 times before Steph shows up.

Its no contest, please stop.
 

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
30,069
22,498
You are talking about VORP and Lebron owns spots 1,3,4,5,6 all time in a single playoffs. 5 out of the top 6 spots. He is literally in there 10 times before Curry shows up at 29th.

All time playoffs:

1.LeBron James33.09
2.Michael Jordan22.85
3.Tim Duncan18.59
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
PER in playoffs:

All time:

Lebron 3rd
Steph 17th

Lebron over 5 points ahead.

Single Playoffs:

Lebron:

2nd (2018)
5th
12th
19th
20th
23rd
44th
54th

Steph:
91st

8 times before Steph shows up.

Its no contest, please stop.

Gimme a break sir, do try to stay on subject.

All-time no question Lebron>>>Curry but ... we're talking about next season.
 
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MLSE

Registered User
Jan 30, 2004
5,845
375
Windsor, Ontario
IMO Curry is a top 4 player. KD's out of that conversation for now so for me it's Curry, Kawhi, Lebron and Davis. I'm not sure of the order but if if we had to draft players for one season, I'd say those should be the first 4 players picked. And whatever the order is, the gap between 1 and 4 isn't a big one.

And yes, Davis IMO is much more valuable to Thompson. Especially when we're discussing next season, his injury is serious one and the odds of him playing on the same level as those other guys next season is near zero.

I was never arguing Curry is better than (or even equal to) Lebron (though some may make that argument), I was just saying that it's not a slam dunk that Lebron is better for next season and that's largely due to his age and we just don't know how his inevitable decline will play out. Curry's only 3 years younger but at that age, that's pretty significant.

There is no way to tell which player will be better by the time the playoffs start. I have no problem with people disagreeing with that but if people are going to say that it's laughable to even think that Curry might be at Lebron's level then I strongly disagree. Call it disrespecting Curry or overrating Lebron or whatever else, I'll just say that IMO it's very wrong and leave it at that.

It is laughable to say Curry is as good as Lebron, given Lebrons track record. If you want to say Lebron is going to fall off, then okay. He hasn't yet and Curry isn't better. When that happens, okay but everything points to Lebron being better, it is what it is.
 
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