Player Discussion Tyler Seguin Dos (Equis)
- Thread starter Stars99Lobo37
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oconnor9sean
Registered User
I thought the appropriate title should've been Tyler Seguin Dos (Equis)
But that's none of my business...
Lobo's fixation with vodka is intriguing. I personally can't stand the stuff.
But that's none of my business...
Lobo's fixation with vodka is intriguing. I personally can't stand the stuff.
Stars99Lobo37
Registered User
TrillMike
Registered User
Hull Fan
The Future is Now
If you want to kill an hour or two go read the Boston threads about Seguin. The mental contortions some of them are twisting themselves into to try to convince themselves this wasn't an awful trade are hilarious. The reactions after every post saying he scored are yummy too.
Stars99Lobo37
Registered User
SonicSpeedDash
All bets are off
piqued
nos merentur hoc
- Nov 22, 2006
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Excellent title.
I've been reading the Boston threads as well and it seems to me a solid majority realize what a mistake it was now.
Their way forward as a franchise should've been to do whatever was necessary to build around Seguin.
Incidentally that video of Chiarelli and co. discussing the trade may be the most powerful evidence available for never releasing video of management's deliberations. There's such a thing as too much access.
I've been reading the Boston threads as well and it seems to me a solid majority realize what a mistake it was now.
Their way forward as a franchise should've been to do whatever was necessary to build around Seguin.
Incidentally that video of Chiarelli and co. discussing the trade may be the most powerful evidence available for never releasing video of management's deliberations. There's such a thing as too much access.
Troy McClure
Suter will never be scratched
My favorite part of the video is how they dog on Seguin for the first part and then sold the praises of Loui as a huge upgrade. Awesome scouting report, guys.
Interesting that Seguin seems to be playing a much more direct game and is generating more scoring chances on his own. It has made for less opportunity for Benn to leech points off of Seguin this year.
Dr Pepper
Registered User
I wouldn't say he's been leeching points at all, actually.
The two have great chemistry, and while Seguin doesn't necessarily rely on Benn in order to produce, it's not as if Jamie can't rack up points without Seguin as well.
The two have great chemistry, and while Seguin doesn't necessarily rely on Benn in order to produce, it's not as if Jamie can't rack up points without Seguin as well.
Really? I'm not going to look it up, but I would bet that Benn has around five points this year where Seguin didn't also record a point.
Well you are in luck because I have looked it up and he has 7 points without Seguin and 4 of them were goals. That's actually significant considering he spends 91.7% of his ES ice time and 99.3% of his PP time with Seguin. He spends no PK time with Seguin however he does have one SH point from Nov 18th. He has also assisted on 11 of Seguin's goals and 7 of them were primary assists. Seguin has assisted on 4 of Benn's goals. They shared assists on 4 goals scored by Spezza, Goligoski, Eakin and Oleksiak with 3 being secondary assists for Benn and one being primary.
And that is a full breakdown of Jamie Benn's 26 points so far this season which is actually 100% unnecessary information and I only have it because I was looking at his goals the other day. I don't know what point you want to make other than that Benn and Seguin record a lot of points together because they play on the same line. A more valid argument would be whether or not Benn and Seguin are putting up points without the other even being on the ice since sharing ice time is significant wrt defense and contributing to scoring plays without getting an assist. I started to do that but I got bored and also no one cares.
edit: Actually I'd be curious to see how many points Seguin has separate from Spezza and Benn. If anyone wanted to look that up that would be cool. I'm way too lazy personally. Benn has 6 btw.
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tjcurrie
Registered User
So far Seguin has 23 goals and 38 points through 29 games
After 29 games in 1993-94, Mike Modano had 21 goals and 39 points
Just an FYI
Oh and suggesting that Benn leeches points off of Seguin is ridiculous.
After 29 games in 1993-94, Mike Modano had 21 goals and 39 points
Just an FYI
Oh and suggesting that Benn leeches points off of Seguin is ridiculous.
Great player...if he could become "complete"(in terms of defense), than I can see critics going silent.
About the last sentence...not really.
Don't get me wrong, they have ridiculous chemistry together and I there is no denying to it. And if you're talking about last year, than I would have agreed. But IMO, I wouldn't go far as saying "leech", but Benn isn't doing much and isn't as effective as he should be (compared to last year). He's also struggling to "score", which is one of his main jobs.
Again, "I" wouldn't go far as saying "leech", but that statement isn't THAT far fetched as saying "ridiculous" IMO.
tjcurrie
Registered User
Pretty much the difference right there. Benn last year was dynamic as hell, and deserved every single point. Leeched nothing.
This season he hasn't been as good. His points have come in bunches where he seemed to be able to string good periods/games together, for the most part. He's typically the primary assist guy, the playmaker when he's getting assists. That's not "leeching" and that's why it's ridiculous. Leeching would be when you're the 3rd man on a line like that and you're either picking up the scraps (though that's a skill in itself) or getting the 2nd assist and not having a lot to do with the goal.
Typically when Benn gets points he has a lot to do with it. So nothing leeching about it. Not even close. If he picks up his game, and remains at the level he can consistently, he will score more, and that's on him rather than anybody else. Just like last season.
tjcurrie
Registered User
Anyways, regarding Seguin.....
Playing with the numbers:
Modano would have finished with 55 goals and 102 points in those 76 games had he kept his pace.
Had he played 82 games (the season was actually 84 games at that point) and kept his pace, he would have finished with 59 goals and 110 points.
If Seguin continues his exact pace and plays all 82, he'll finish with 65 goals and 107 points.
The franchise record for points in a season is 114, recorded by Bobby Smith over 80 games in 1981-82.
The only other 100 point seasons in franchise history:
Dino Ciccarelli - 106 points over 76 games in 1981-82
Neal Broten - 105 points over 80 games in 1985-86
Dino Ciccarelli - 103 points over 80 games in 1986-87
*Brian Bellows had 99 points over 80 games in 1989-90
The franchise record for goals in a season is 55, recorded by both Dino Ciccarelli over 76 games in 1981-82, and Brian Bellows over 80 games in 1989-90.
The only other 50 goal seasons in franchise history:
Dino Ciccarelli - 52 goals over 80 games in 1986-87
Mike Modano - 50 goals over 76 games in 1993-94
It's unlikely Seguin catches Bobby Smith for the points record, but he's on pace to catch Dino Ciccarelli's franchise 2nd best total of 106.
As for goals, he's well on pace to break both Ciccarelli and Bellows' franchise record of 55. I would lean towards falling short on this one as well, but he has a shot.
Either way, statistically he has a chance to place nicely on our franchise's all-time list this season. He could reach totals not seen by this franchise in 21 (50 goals) & 28 (100 points) years.
Playing with the numbers:
Modano would have finished with 55 goals and 102 points in those 76 games had he kept his pace.
Had he played 82 games (the season was actually 84 games at that point) and kept his pace, he would have finished with 59 goals and 110 points.
If Seguin continues his exact pace and plays all 82, he'll finish with 65 goals and 107 points.
The franchise record for points in a season is 114, recorded by Bobby Smith over 80 games in 1981-82.
The only other 100 point seasons in franchise history:
Dino Ciccarelli - 106 points over 76 games in 1981-82
Neal Broten - 105 points over 80 games in 1985-86
Dino Ciccarelli - 103 points over 80 games in 1986-87
*Brian Bellows had 99 points over 80 games in 1989-90
The franchise record for goals in a season is 55, recorded by both Dino Ciccarelli over 76 games in 1981-82, and Brian Bellows over 80 games in 1989-90.
The only other 50 goal seasons in franchise history:
Dino Ciccarelli - 52 goals over 80 games in 1986-87
Mike Modano - 50 goals over 76 games in 1993-94
It's unlikely Seguin catches Bobby Smith for the points record, but he's on pace to catch Dino Ciccarelli's franchise 2nd best total of 106.
As for goals, he's well on pace to break both Ciccarelli and Bellows' franchise record of 55. I would lean towards falling short on this one as well, but he has a shot.
Either way, statistically he has a chance to place nicely on our franchise's all-time list this season. He could reach totals not seen by this franchise in 21 (50 goals) & 28 (100 points) years.
Troy McClure
Suter will never be scratched
tjcurrie
Registered User
Hard to say.
Goals? Yes. If he continues his pace and hits 65, then that's easily the best goal scoring season especially when taking in to account era.
Points? Maybe. He's on pace for 107, obviously that falls short of the franchise record. Taking era in to account, he gets extra credit, but how much?
Would it have been a 120 point season back in the early 1980s? Possible. That's where it's tough to say for sure.
We'll see what he finishes off with anyways. As was pointed out, Modano was pretty much exactly the same statistically at this point in 1993-94 and didn't keep the pace.
I think he keeps his points pace for the most part and finishes upper 90s/100. Goals? I say he hits 50 give or take a couple. Don't see him netting 65.
Troy McClure
Suter will never be scratched
Points or goals. Either way.
Those old North Stars numbers all happened back before the NHL had real goalies. Seguin probably can't catch Bobby Smith's point total, but even Smith's monster season only saw him finish 8th in scoring that season. To compare guys to their contemporaries, Seguin's last season was already more impressive when he finished 4th in scoring.
Those old North Stars numbers all happened back before the NHL had real goalies. Seguin probably can't catch Bobby Smith's point total, but even Smith's monster season only saw him finish 8th in scoring that season. To compare guys to their contemporaries, Seguin's last season was already more impressive when he finished 4th in scoring.
tjcurrie
Registered User
Not necessarily true. Did Seguin compete with Wayne Gretzky and Mike Bossy and Bryan Trottier and Peter Stastny and Marcel Dionne?
I mean you really have to look at the competition, and then compare that, and that's tough to do. So it's not necessarily how high you finish, 4th vs 8th etc.
You can't take guys who were beaten by players like Wayne and Mario in the 80s and 90s, or Jagr in the last couple decades, and just ignore that fact and pretend all things are equal. I mean Steve Yzerman finished 3rd in scoring in 1988-89 with 155 points. That's an Art Ross if not for Mario and Wayne putting up 199 and 168, respectively. I would consider that season by Yzerman better than probably most Art Ross finishes lately, even if it was only 3rd overall.
And I'm not going to call an 84 point season today more impressive than a 114 point season back then. They're 30 points apart. Seguin doesn't make that up, let alone make that up + some.
I know 107 points today is more than 107 points yesterday, obviously, but it's tough to say just how many more. And if you want to talk about placing in league scoring, then you have to compare competition and that's where it gets dicey. Today's game I don't believe has the players the game had back then, let alone Gretzky. If he hits 100+ though I would rank it right up there with Smith's. Maybe it would be better, but maybe not, it's just hard to say. I wouldn't say that it's "by far" better in the points category. That's where I take exception.
If he continues his goal pace though, even close and finishes with 60+, then absolutely. He will have flat out beat both Bellows and Ciccarelli, in a lower scoring era, and likely will have led the league in that department to boot.
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oconnor9sean
Registered User
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