Prospect Info: Tyler Boucher (F) - PART III

[senswon]

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[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

Silinger is a pure shooter with defensive limitations. He’s got average speed and if he can’t beat out Batherson/Norris he’s on PP2 not killing any penalties. This isn’t the type of player the Sens want.

I’ll admit I really haven’t watched him play in Columbus, but.....The guy made an NHL team and is moderately producing in the league as an 18 yr old.

Do you really believe he wouldn’t have a place on the Sens?

 

[Emerica]

Good news everyone, Pierre McGuire is still alive

 

[Sweatred]

I’ll admit I really haven’t watched him play in Columbus, but.....The guy made an NHL team and is moderately producing in the league as an 18 yr old.

Do you really believe he wouldn’t have a place on the Sens?

I don’t think the Sens believe he ever projects to PP1, PK1, PK2, or OT … the Sens don’t want guys who can only offer PP2 and nothing else. He projects like a Hoffman type player. Who knows where he lands but the Sens don’t want guys on their 2-3 lines that can only shoot, can’t skate, and won’t hit (battle, compete, separate pucks etc). Silinger is know as an average skater who is soft in his own end. Does that sound like a good winger for Jimmy?

So they took a guy who they think projects to run through walls who may score 5-20 less goals from the 2ND or 3RD line and can also play PP2 and PK1-2 … he’ll probably limit 5-20 goals vs a floater. He’s known to be a ferocious hitter, fast skater with a good shot.

 

[OD99]

I don’t think the Sens believe he ever projects to PP1, PK1, PK2, or OT … the Sens don’t want guys who can only offer PP2 and nothing else. He projects like a Hoffman type player. Who knows where he lands but the Sens don’t want guys on their 2-3 lines that can only shoot, can’t skate, and won’t hit (battle, compete, separate pucks etc). Silinger is know as an average skater who is soft in his own end. Does that sound like a good winger for Jimmy?

So they took a guy who they think projects to run through walls who may score 5-20 less goals from the 2ND or 3RD line and can also play PP2 and PK1-2 … he’ll probably limit 5-20 goals vs a floater. He’s known to be a ferocious hitter, fast skater with a good shot.

It's like Boucher is the anti-White or inverse White or something here.

Boucher has done nothing but indicate he was drafted way too high and hasn't shown progressions in his skills but you are totally bought in to his value.

I hope he turns in to a useful player for us but unless he turns it around big time I don't want him anywhere near Jimmy and you shouldn't either.

Let him run through a wall for someone on the 4th line.

 

[Big Muddy]

It's like Boucher is the anti-White or inverse White or something here.

Boucher has done nothing but indicate he was drafted way too high and hasn't shown progressions in his skills but you are totally bought in to his value.

I hope he turns in to a useful player for us but unless he turns it around big time I don't want him anywhere near Jimmy and you shouldn't either.

Let him run through a wall for someone on the 4th line.

Can't say I would have watched enough of Sillinger either to formulate such a detailed and accurate assessment. I wonder who amongst us really has?

 

[RAFI BOMB]

Interesting little thought experiment to offset all the pessimism on here. In the 2016 NHL draft if the Ottawa Senators drafted Drake Batherson 11th overall instead of Logan Brown they would have ended up with the better player. At the end of the 2015-2016 season Batherson had only played 10 games in the QMJHL and had put up only 2 points (2 assists). If the Senators would have taken Batherson with their pick they would have been mocked and ridiculed, and plenty of people would have called them idiots and fools, and yet at this point he is a superior player to the one we did actually draft.

Sure it is difficult to tell how much of an impact not being drafted in his first year of draft eligibility and to be a 4th round pick in his 2nd year of eligibility had on his eventual development, but the point still stands that the end outcome is a superior player to the one we did draft. People are quick on here to be so pessimistic about Boucher's upside and that of the other players we drafted in the 2021 draft but they dismiss how what really matters is what a player becomes in the long run. There is an abundance of examples of players drafted in the later rounds or taken in their 2nd or 3rd year of eligibility that have gone on to become some of the top players in the league, and in many cases vastly superior to those drafted much earlier than them.

2003: Dustin Byfuglien (8th round), Joe Pavelski (7th round)
2004: Ryan Callahan (4th round)
2005: Patric Hornqvist (7th round)
2007 :Jamie Benn (5th round)
2009: Anders Lee (6th round)
2010: Mark Stone (6th round), Brendan Gallagher (5th round), John Klingberg (5th round)
2011: Ondrej Palat (7th round), JG Pageau (4th round)
2012: Connor Brown (6th round), Jacob Slavin (4th round), Josh Anderson (4th round)
2013: MacKenzie Weegar (7th round), Dominik Kubalik (7th round)
2014: Kevin Labanc (6th round)
2015: Kirill Kaprizov (5th round)
2017: Drake Batherson (4th round)

I would think that a lot of organizations and fans would take all these players and others a hell of a lot higher if they knew what they would eventually become. There would likely have been a lot of public criticism if they went much higher, such as in the top ten or 1st or 2nd rounds but the end result is that they are better players than what a lot of teams actually got.

Boucher (and the other 2021 draft picks for that matter) have plenty of time to become the kinds of players they will eventually become and what really matters is the final result.

 

[Sweatred]

It's like Boucher is the anti-White or inverse White or something here.

Boucher has done nothing but indicate he was drafted way too high and hasn't shown progressions in his skills but you are totally bought in to his value.

I hope he turns in to a useful player for us but unless he turns it around big time I don't want him anywhere near Jimmy and you shouldn't either.

Let him run through a wall for someone on the 4th line.

Ha … I agree with you … he is the opposite of White .. he hits and battles.

I think you should watch him play more. We all will in time. A 19 year old doesn't get derailed because of a few injures. I doubt the kings regret drafting Byfield. .

Every 19 year old taken has a lot of development hurdles to overcome. The point with Boucher is he has a foundation of elite skills that project to be the type of player the Sens want in their top 9…. He won’t be another White, Lazar, or Hoffman.

He might just be a 4th line player but that applies to every first round forward pick we have mid round (White, Lazar, Bowers, Brown etc) or he may hit his ceiling and be a valuable piece anywhere in the lineup.

All of the first round unsuccessful forwards we picked above are unsuccessful because they don’t compete hard enough and win enough battles. They were drafted for skating, vision, or shooting but not physicality, power, or a willingness to compete. So having failed 4 times in a row we’re changing things up… and I like it.

 

[BondraTime]

Ha … I agree with you … he is the opposite of White .. he hits and battles.

I think you should watch him play more. We all will in time. A 19 year old doesn't get derailed because of a few injures. I doubt the kings regret drafting Byfield. .

Every 19 year old taken has a lot of development hurdles to overcome. The point with Boucher is he has a foundation of elite skills that project to be the type of player the Sens want in their top 9…. He won’t be another White, Lazar, or Hoffman.

He might just be a 4th line player but that applies to every first round forward pick we have mid round (White, Lazar, Bowers, Brown etc) or he may hit his ceiling and be a valuable piece anywhere in the lineup.

All of the first round unsuccessful forwards we picked above are unsuccessful because they don’t compete hard enough and win enough battles. They were drafted for skating, vision, or shooting but not physicality, power, or a willingness to compete. So having failed 4 times in a row we’re changing things up… and I like it.

All of White, Bowers, and Lazar were drafted for their compete and attention to detail. None were drafted because of their skill or vision. Not one was considered a skill player at the draft, all were reliable safe players with high motor and compete. They are all much, much closer to Boucher than a guy like Brown.

 

[Tuna99]

Unreal how much ink this player gets - last 1st round pick to be declared a bust so quickly was Brady Tkachuk

 

[Masked]

Unreal how much ink this player gets - last 1st round pick to be declared a bust so quickly was Brady Tkachuk

I think you're forgetting Lassi.

Assen na yo!

 

[Sweatred]

Boucher and the 2021 draft is just one of the few remaining avenues to chop down Dorion and co.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Boucher and the 2021 draft is just one of the few remaining avenues to chop down Dorion and co.

For now. I have a feeling we’ll get some solid players from that draft.

 

[Cosmix]

You're basing this on 1 game essentially.

They're one of the best teams in the league and they don't play soft. This was a one off, we beat a bunch of good teams and that doesn't make us better than them. We've also been beat by very bad teams. It's the way it is.

Carolina has an incredible team. Let's not get head of ourselves calling out great teams. We're still in the sewers.

Can't argue with your point as the team is near the bottom of the league in the standings and has been there for some time now. I am optimistic that the team will break out of the bottom dweller territory some time in the next 3 or 4 years due to our higher draft picks but I am not certain that the team will get into the SC contender level. Stutzle, Tkachuk, Batherson, Norris, Chabot, Sanderson and others give me some hope.

 

[Senator Stanley]

Ha … I agree with you … he is the opposite of White .. he hits and battles.

I think you should watch him play more. We all will in time. A 19 year old doesn't get derailed because of a few injures. I doubt the kings regret drafting Byfield. .

Every 19 year old taken has a lot of development hurdles to overcome. The point with Boucher is he has a foundation of elite skills that project to be the type of player the Sens want in their top 9…. He won’t be another White, Lazar, or Hoffman.

He might just be a 4th line player but that applies to every first round forward pick we have mid round (White, Lazar, Bowers, Brown etc) or he may hit his ceiling and be a valuable piece anywhere in the lineup.

All of the first round unsuccessful forwards we picked above are unsuccessful because they don’t compete hard enough and win enough battles. They were drafted for skating, vision, or shooting but not physicality, power, or a willingness to compete. So having failed 4 times in a row we’re changing things up… and I like it.

I think your assessment of Boucher, and guys like White and Lazar for that matter, is way off.

Elite skills? When has Boucher ever displayed elite skills? I actually think he has a lot in common with White, Bowers and Lazar, in terms of basic profile. Some skill, and you're hoping it's enough (combined with smarts, work ethic, character, NHL bodies) that in a best case scenario they can play up in your lineup. It's a high-floor skillset. Curtis Lazar is a perfect example of how this sometimes works out. He's falling back on his compete and physicality (which he absolutely displayed at 19) to carve out a bottom 6 career.

As for hits and battle, Boucher obviously loves to hit, but one of the more disappointing things I've found when watching him at BU and the NTDP is that he's not overly engaged. He lights up at the chance to throw a big hit, but I've mostly seen a player who is happy to play off the puck, watch the game and pick his spots. When I think of "battle" I think of guys like Tkachuk or Ridly Greig. Guys who can't not battle. Who are always engaged. I'm not saying Boucher is soft (obviously he's not) or that he can't battle (obviously he can), but this perception of him as this super engaged battler doesn't match the player I'm seeing.

And for the record, I think Dorion is bad at his job, I think Trent Mann is mostly good at his job, I think Boucher was the wrong pick at 10th OA but is still a worthwhile prospect, and I really hope he succeeds.

 

[Sweatred]

I think your assessment of Boucher, and guys like White and Lazar for that matter, is way off.

Elite skills? When has Boucher ever displayed elite skills? I.

Every day he plays…. And I’m more than fine being told I’m way off… I’ve been told that 1000 x’s re white over the last 3 years.

Boucher’s Elite skills are is his body checking and willingness to compete.

His speed, skating, and shot are decent. The Sens drafted a kid who scored 10’s in non traditional skills typical at the 10 OA slot. Instead of drafting a kid with a 9-10 in shooting, they took a kid with 9-10 in hitting.

 

[LudwigVonKarlsson]

Unreal how much ink this player gets - last 1st round pick to be declared a bust so quickly was Brady Tkachuk

Thanks for trying, but Brady was a projected top 5 pick.

Brady Tkachuk

• NHL Central Scouting: 2nd (among NA Skaters)
• Future Considerations: 3rd
• McKeen’s Hockey: 5th
• Hockeyprospect.com: 5th
• ISS Hockey: 4th
• Bob McKenzie: 4th
• Craig Button: 2nd
• Jeff Marek: 4th

Tyler Boucher

• 2021 NHL Entry Draft: Ranked #93 by FCHockey
  
• 2021 NHL Entry Draft: Ranked #49 by TSN/Craig Button
  
• 2021 NHL Entry Draft: Ranked #29 by TSN/McKenzie
• 2021 NHL Entry Draft: Ranked #25 by NHL Central Scouting
  
• 2021 NHL Entry Draft Ranked #26 by Hockeyprospect.com
  
• 2021 NHL Entry Draft Ranked # Honourable Mention by smahtscouting.com
  
• Also ranked outside of the top 30 according to ISS Hockey

 

[ijif]

Interesting little thought experiment to offset all the pessimism on here. In the 2016 NHL draft if the Ottawa Senators drafted Drake Batherson 11th overall instead of Logan Brown they would have ended up with the better player. At the end of the 2015-2016 season Batherson had only played 10 games in the QMJHL and had put up only 2 points (2 assists). If the Senators would have taken Batherson with their pick they would have been mocked and ridiculed, and plenty of people would have called them idiots and fools, and yet at this point he is a superior player to the one we did actually draft.

Sure it is difficult to tell how much of an impact not being drafted in his first year of draft eligibility and to be a 4th round pick in his 2nd year of eligibility had on his eventual development, but the point still stands that the end outcome is a superior player to the one we did draft. People are quick on here to be so pessimistic about Boucher's upside and that of the other players we drafted in the 2021 draft but they dismiss how what really matters is what a player becomes in the long run. There is an abundance of examples of players drafted in the later rounds or taken in their 2nd or 3rd year of eligibility that have gone on to become some of the top players in the league, and in many cases vastly superior to those drafted much earlier than them.

2003: Dustin Byfuglien (8th round), Joe Pavelski (7th round)
2004: Ryan Callahan (4th round)
2005: Patric Hornqvist (7th round)
2007 :Jamie Benn (5th round)
2009: Anders Lee (6th round)
2010: Mark Stone (6th round), Brendan Gallagher (5th round), John Klingberg (5th round)
2011: Ondrej Palat (7th round), JG Pageau (4th round)
2012: Connor Brown (6th round), Jacob Slavin (4th round), Josh Anderson (4th round)
2013: MacKenzie Weegar (7th round), Dominik Kubalik (7th round)
2014: Kevin Labanc (6th round)
2015: Kirill Kaprizov (5th round)
2017: Drake Batherson (4th round)

I would think that a lot of organizations and fans would take all these players and others a hell of a lot higher if they knew what they would eventually become. There would likely have been a lot of public criticism if they went much higher, such as in the top ten or 1st or 2nd rounds but the end result is that they are better players than what a lot of teams actually got.

Boucher (and the other 2021 draft picks for that matter) have plenty of time to become the kinds of players they will eventually become and what really matters is the final result.

Yes, all that matters is the end result, but when we get more information through the eye-test and statistics, it makes sense to update our previous beliefs. Tyler Boucher isn't having a great year, so many people are likely updating their belief in a negative direction.

Some of the players on your list should have went higher, and most of them are nothing like Boucher.

 

[BondraTime]

Yes, all that matters is the end result, but when we get more information through the eye-test and statistics, it makes sense to update our previous beliefs. Tyler Boucher isn't having a great year, so many people are likely updating their belief in a negative direction.

Some of the players on your list should have went higher, and most of them are nothing like Boucher.

Boucher started off with a large majority agreeing he was picked too high. His play since has made that belief look like it had merit.

There will always be guys picked lower than they should have been, and guys picked higher than they should have been. We saw with Batherson, who immediately jumped out as a guy who was a shrewd pick who was playing great as soon as the puck dropped in his draft season, and we have seen with Boucher that he has floundered to start his D+1.

D+1 doesn’t make a career, but it is a somewhat good barometer for success. Most guys who have successful careers have successful D+1’s.

Leaving BU was a great idea for Boucher, it was obvious to him, and the Sens, that his development wasn’t going as planned. It’s been nearly the exact opposite of a start you want for a guy you spend a top 10 pick on. Unfortunately injuries have kept him from playing in the O, where his game hopefully takes a turn for the better.

I understand the pick, I understand what they are going for. I think they bet on the wrong horse in the wrong race, not that my opinion on it matters at all.

 

[Xspyrit]

Thanks for trying, but Brady was a projected top 5 pick.

Brady Tkachuk

• NHL Central Scouting: 2nd (among NA Skaters)
• Future Considerations: 3rd
• McKeen’s Hockey: 5th
• Hockeyprospect.com: 5th
• ISS Hockey: 4th
• Bob McKenzie: 4th
• Craig Button: 2nd
• Jeff Marek: 4th

Tyler Boucher

• 2021 NHL Entry Draft: Ranked #93 by FCHockey
  
• 2021 NHL Entry Draft: Ranked #49 by TSN/Craig Button
  
• 2021 NHL Entry Draft: Ranked #29 by TSN/McKenzie
• 2021 NHL Entry Draft: Ranked #25 by NHL Central Scouting
  
• 2021 NHL Entry Draft Ranked #26 by Hockeyprospect.com
  
• 2021 NHL Entry Draft Ranked # Honourable Mention by smahtscouting.com
  
• Also ranked outside of the top 30 according to ISS Hockey

Thanks for this, I think I would have posted the exact same thing

People have the "right" to defend this pick no problem, but I think one thing that is quickly forgotten is that we're talking about a 10th overall pick... and I haven't heard anywhere that it was a really weak draft or something

Sure, Boucher might turn out into a player but there's a difference between Lazar being a player and I don't know, Bo Horvat being a player.

Horvat was taken 9th OA in that 2013 draft. What if the Canucks were enamored with Lazar and went with him instead? At 17th OA it wasn't a fantastic pick but really not as bad as there wasn't a ton of better options left.

Passing on Horvat (or Morrissey, Domi, Pulock) for Lazar would have been a really bad pick

That's what we're trying to say here. There's a huge chance for this to happen in a similar fashion. Much higher chance than Boucher turning into Tom Wilson 2.0

 

[Good in Osgoode]

For now. I have a feeling we’ll get some solid players from that draft.

It is very early to label the entire Sens 2021 draft a bust when we are only 6 months removed from the actual draft and we are talking about a bunch of 18/19 year old prospects.

If you take a look at the Sens 2019 draft:

If I remember correctly, a lot of these picks, especially Thomson, Pinto & Sogaard were considered either bad picks or at the very least, reaches at the time of the draft.

Fast forward to 2022 and everyone of these picks is looking pretty good right about now.
We probably won't really now what we have with the 2019 draft for another 2 years or so.

I think we just need to relax a bit on the 2021 draft class and give it some time.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

It is very early to label the entire Sens 2021 draft a bust when we are only 6 months removed from the actual draft and we are talking about a bunch of 18/19 year old prospects.

If you take a look at the Sens 2019 draft:

View attachment 504840

If I remember correctly, a lot of these picks, especially Thomson, Pinto & Sogaard were considered either bad picks or at the very least, reaches at the time of the draft.

Fast forward to 2022 and everyone of these picks is looking pretty good right about now.
We probably won't really now what we have with the 2019 draft for another 2 years or so.

I think we just need to relax a bit on the 2021 draft class and give it some time.

I agree it takes some time to see what we have. A few comments have been about some concern over the D+1 seasons.
Lassi had a pretty good D+1 season. Started hot in Liiga; Captained his WJC team.
Pinto had a better than pretty good D+1 Season was very good at the WJC
Sogaard had a good D+1 season; represented Denmark at the WJC
Lodin has been a bit of a late bloomer.. Not many fans of the 4th round pick at the time D+1 was not impressive
Kastelic .. over ager I believe pretty much as advertised and has been consistent.. 5th round pick so .. Meets expectations imo
Guenette .. 7th round pick. I liked the pick. He had a good D+1 season

So at this point in time comparing their D+1 seasons .. 2019 is looking better than 2021. Lets hope what they saw pans out.

 

[OD99]

First off I don't think anybody is writing off our recent draft class - that is noise from the side who want to defend it at all costs.

It is reasonable (expected?) to be disappointed by the results of just about every pick save some of our later round picks. Not one has stepped up to show significant progress.

That doesn't mean they won't have a longer learning curve or become very good players but if we discuss what we can actually define and know at the moment, the draft can't inspire confidence. At best it let's us fall back on, "they are young and have lots of time" - which is exactly what my feeling is now. We don't need one of them to be a star but it sure feels a lot better when a player explodes after being drafted and gets us excited.

I hope Boucher turns in to a very good player but I still won't be saying it was a shrewd pick if he turns in to a 4th liner that, "battles hard".

 

[OD99]

It is very early to label the entire Sens 2021 draft a bust when we are only 6 months removed from the actual draft and we are talking about a bunch of 18/19 year old prospects.

If you take a look at the Sens 2019 draft:

View attachment 504840

If I remember correctly, a lot of these picks, especially Thomson, Pinto & Sogaard were considered either bad picks or at the very least, reaches at the time of the draft.

Fast forward to 2022 and everyone of these picks is looking pretty good right about now.
We probably won't really now what we have with the 2019 draft for another 2 years or so.

I think we just need to relax a bit on the 2021 draft class and give it some time.

Who isn't relaxed? Posters had opinions before the draft and now still have them post draft. If anyone had misgivings about Boucher prior I think they probably feel more entrenched and for good reason. But I must be missing all the sky is falling posts (there may be a handful but that is a significant minority).

As for the class you mentioned there were a lot of people who thought Kaliyev was going to be our 1st pick on day 2 and the Sens went with Pinto instead...high scoring skill over a player who was a late bloomer but by all indications was a heck of an athlete and was starting to focus on hockey. Pinto quickly changed minds post draft.

Pinto's 8 points in 17 NHL games (really 16) also looks pretty good compared to 15 in 47 so far but again LOTS of time for both to mature.

 

[Big Muddy]

It is very early to label the entire Sens 2021 draft a bust when we are only 6 months removed from the actual draft .

Yes, I agree with what your saying , but I don't think people are being that negative either. I think many if not most posters take a more balanced approach generally speaking.

But there is a tendency to latch on to, or to hear the most extreme whether negative or positive, and overlook the more nuanced, middle ground. Things are generally not as good, or as bad as it seems most of the time.

I think some people just take issue with others who they perceive as taking an opposite point of view. Seems to be a tendency these days in general.

More specifically, I think people are concerned about Boucher because the last draft is the one many think could cement the rebuild.

But, at the same time, I think the majority of people recognize that players take time to develop. But the more nuanced opinion is often not the one that is "heard".