News Article: TSN: Stan Mikita suffered from CTE

[Illinihockey]

The goal isn't to eliminate concussions completely, because as others have pointed out, that will never happen.

But you do as much as you can to eliminate as much as you can.

Right. I've only received concussions from head contact. I doubt there are numbers out there but I'd bet the majority of concussions in a given NHL season is from contact to the head.

 

[BK]

featherhawk was talking about removing the rigid composite/kevlar pieces from shoulder pads and elbow pads, and replacing it with the soft, sponge type of padding in old school equipment. That's just asking for more injuries, and won't have much of an impact on concussions in any way. Guys could get away with that equipment back in the day because they didn't block shots like they do now, many people couldn't lift the puck when shooting(straight stick blades), and guys weren't shooting 90-100mph on average, with at least a dozen guys able to crack the 100mph mark on any given shot. I mean, guys have 90+mph wrist shots now. Softening the equipment won't fix concussions. Unfortunately, when it comes to high-speed, contact sports, concussions aren't going away. You can do things to slightly minimize them, but the speed, physicality, and repeated collisions are what cause the concussions the vast majority of the time. I mean, NHLers are skating at speeds 25-30mph regularly, now. There really is no easy solution, or blanket solution, other than eliminating checking all together... and if that happens, I won't watch anymore.

The rigid pieces are not the problem, how they are covered is (as I am sure you know).

 

[Pez68]

Right. I've only received concussions from head contact. I doubt there are numbers out there but I'd bet the majority of concussions in a given NHL season is from contact to the head.

I would bet that you're wrong.

 

[Illinihockey]

I would bet that you're wrong.

Its your hypothesis so you should try to prove it. Just off the top of my head in recent years the Toews, Seabrook, Anisamov and Hossa concussions all came from hits to the head.

 

[BobbyJet]

The recent game vs St Louis is an illustration of (possible) concussions coming from cheap shots but not necessarily directed at the head. Kurashev, Dach and the Swedish prospect all had injuries related to the head from being boarded and/or hit from behind.

 

[Pez68]

The Weber hit on Anisimov wasn't to the head. The Mitchell hit on Toews back in 2009 wasn't to the head. Both concussions that weren't head shots.

If Torres doesn't hit Hossa in the head, he's still concussed, because of how violent the hit was.

A violent shoulder to shoulder or shoulder to chest body check is just as likely to cause a concussion as a hit to the head. As is taking someone's feet out from under them, and their head snapping back when they hit the ice. Or boarding, that doesn't involve the victim hitting their head, but their head snapping violently.

Head shots are absolutely a problem, but changing equipment isn't going to make a damn bit of difference. I've seen guys concussed in beer leagues from collisions more times than I can count, and most guys aren't wearing ANY shoulder pads out there. They certainly aren't throwing elbows to the head, either.

You take a couple of really fast players, and put them on a collision course, and the outcome isn't looking good for either one of them. Regardless of head contact, or not.

Again, it's just the nature of the game. Guys moving 20-30 MPH, stopping instantly, are going to get concussed. It's an inevitable outcome of how our skull is designed... You cannot beat physics.

The majority of the PUBLICIZED concussions are from head shots, sure. And there are likely tens of hundreds that go unreported, or undiagnosed, every single season. I'd seriously bet that there are more concussions that are undiagnosed or unreported by the player, than concussions that are (there are statistics that back this up, as well). I know a lot of hockey players. I talk to dozens of different players, on an almost daily basis. I'm around the game and at an ice rink pretty much every day of my life. When we're sitting around at the bars after games talking about this topic, pretty much anyone that has played check hockey will admit to having suffered many more undiagnosed concussions, than those that were ever diagnosed. Especially now, with what we have learned about the symptoms, and after effects. And we still have a ton to learn about them.

The NHL hasn't even scratched the surface on concussions. Their concussion spotters are still absolutely terrible. I lost count of how many times I saw a guy get his bell rung last season, and go right back out on the ice, without going through protocol. Unless a guy takes a head shot, or is down and out, they pretty much never send them to the quiet room. It's a joke.

 

[BK]

Whiplash is a big cause of concussions.

How are people defining head contact? Direct only?

 

[ChiHawks10]

The Weber hit on Anisimov wasn't to the head. The Mitchell hit on Toews back in 2009 wasn't to the head. Both concussions that weren't head shots.

If Torres doesn't hit Hossa in the head, he's still concussed, because of how violent the hit was.

A violent shoulder to shoulder or shoulder to chest body check is just as likely to cause a concussion as a hit to the head. As is taking someone's feet out from under them, and their head snapping back when they hit the ice. Or boarding, that doesn't involve the victim hitting their head, but their head snapping violently.

Head shots are absolutely a problem, but changing equipment isn't going to make a damn bit of difference. I've seen guys concussed in beer leagues from collisions more times than I can count, and most guys aren't wearing ANY shoulder pads out there. They certainly aren't throwing elbows to the head, either.

You take a couple of really fast players, and put them on a collision course, and the outcome isn't looking good for either one of them. Regardless of head contact, or not.

Again, it's just the nature of the game. Guys moving 20-30 MPH, stopping instantly, are going to get concussed. It's an inevitable outcome of how our skull is designed... You cannot beat physics.

The majority of the PUBLICIZED concussions are from head shots, sure. And there are likely tens of hundreds that go unreported, or undiagnosed, every single season. I'd seriously bet that there are more concussions that are undiagnosed or unreported by the player, than concussions that are (there are statistics that back this up, as well). I know a lot of hockey players, I talk to dozens of different players, on an almost daily basis. I'm around the game and at an ice rink pretty much every day of my life. When we're sitting around at the bars after games talking about this topic, pretty much anyone that has played check hockey will admit to having suffered many more undiagnosed concussions, than those that were ever diagnosed. Especially now, with what we have learned about the symptoms, and after effects. And we still have a ton to learn about them.

The NHL hasn't even scratched the surface on concussions. Their concussion spotters are still absolutely terrible. I lost count of how many times I saw a guy get his bell rung last season, and go right back out on the ice, without going through protocol. Unless a guy takes a head shot, or is down and out, they pretty much never send them to the quiet room. It's a joke.

I got one sliding into the boards at full speed, and I didn't even hit my head at all. I went in feet and back first on my knees, and my head never contacted the boards or ice. It happened due to the violent way I came to a stop, and the way my head/neck snapped because of it. I didn't go get it diagnosed, but based upon my symptoms I know I had a minor one. Headache on and off for a couple weeks following it, amnesia from the moment of impact until about 10-15 seconds after. Was the same play where I dislocated the ankle. It's the nature of the game... they're inevitable in a contact sport played at that type of speed, and equipment isn't going to make a bit of difference.

 

[clydesdale line]

The Weber hit on Anisimov wasn't to the head. The Mitchell hit on Toews back in 2009 wasn't to the head. Both concussions that weren't head shots.

If Torres doesn't hit Hossa in the head, he's still concussed, because of how violent the hit was.

A violent shoulder to shoulder or shoulder to chest body check is just as likely to cause a concussion as a hit to the head. As is taking someone's feet out from under them, and their head snapping back when they hit the ice. Or boarding, that doesn't involve the victim hitting their head, but their head snapping violently.

I'll add the Kronwall hit to Havlat in that sense too.

 

[BobbyJet]

So what about re-introducing the center line offside? That would change the game significantly.

Burkey has proposed building all future rinks bigger. Not international size but bigger than NHL regulation. Would that help the game or make it even more violent?

I'm sure there are plenty of proposals that most of us probably haven't thought of. The NHL should form a committee I reckon.... or have they already done so, we just do not hear much about it?

 

[Pez68]

So what about re-introducing the center line offside? That would change the game significantly.

Burkey has proposed building all future rinks bigger. Not international size but bigger than NHL regulation. Would that help the game or make it even more violent?

I'm sure there are plenty of proposals that most of us probably haven't thought of. The NHL should form a committee I reckon.... or have they already done so, we just do not hear much about it?

How would "center line offside" solve anything? Most guys are getting smoked with open ice hits either high in their own zone on the breakout, or high in the offensive zone trying to cut through the middle. Guys can also accelerate to top speed in a couple of strides now... Players are easily going from a dead stop, to full speed, between the blue and red lines.

Do you think it would make a difference? If so, why?

The two-line offside pass was always a ridiculously stupid rule that never really accomplished anything.

 

[BobbyJet]

How would "center line offside" solve anything? Most guys are getting smoked with open ice hits either high in their own zone on the breakout, or high in the offensive zone trying to cut through the middle. Guys can also accelerate to top speed in a couple of strides now... Players are easily going from a dead stop, to full speed, between the blue and red lines.

Do you think it would make a difference? If so, why?

The two-line offside pass was always a ridiculously stupid rule that never really accomplished anything.

It's not my proposal. Heard it first from a TSN analyst... just asking the question but it would slow the game down and probably would help prevent a few of the head shot hits we see in the neutral zone.

 

[featherhawk]

The rigid pieces are not the problem, how they are covered is (as I am sure you know).

the rigid parts of shoulder and elbow pads are part of the problem, not all but they do play a part in both concussions and the severity of said concussions.

 

[BK]

the rigid parts of shoulder and elbow pads are part of the problem, not all but they do play a part in both concussions and the severity of said concussions.

It is how they are covered. The hard plastic parts have been there for decades.

 

[ChiHawks10]

the rigid parts of shoulder and elbow pads are part of the problem, not all but they do play a part in both concussions and the severity of said concussions.

There have been rigid pieces in the shoulder and elbow pads for over 30 years. The problem is the size, speed, and strength of the players nowadays.

 

[featherhawk]

It is how they are covered. The hard plastic parts have been there for decades.

There have been rigid pieces in the shoulder and elbow pads for over 30 years. The problem is the size, speed, and strength of the players nowadays.

yes I know that rigid or plastic parts have been around for 30 years having said that the rigid or plastic parts have become more and more rigid and they now cover a significant amount more of the equipment

I would say that concussions have been getting worse in the NHL for those same 30 years however I am not qualified to make such a statement.

I can however state with all certainty that the kevlar and composite materials that make up an enormous surface area of the shoulder/elbow equipment these days do not help in the reduction of concussions

 

[Pez68]

yes I know that rigid or plastic parts have been around for 30 years having said that the rigid or plastic parts have become more and more rigid and they now cover a significant amount more of the equipment

I would say that concussions have been getting worse in the NHL for those same 30 years however I am not qualified to make such a statement.

I can however state with all certainty that the kevlar and composite materials that make up an enormous surface area of the shoulder/elbow equipment these days do not help in the reduction of concussions

Do you actually own any of the hockey equipment in question? I don't ask to be an ass. I ask because....in my experience, you are completely off base. They have actually gone the opposite direction in the last 20+ years. I still have shoulder pads and elbow pads from the mid to late 90's in my garage. Top of the line gear that I wore in high school. I also have top of the line elbow pads I bought in the last year, and upper/middle tier shoulder pads, that are also around a year old. The old pads are significantly harder, have more plastic, and are heavier, than the pads I have now. It's not even close really.

New equipment has a lot more impact absorbing, lightweight, super-foam material, than it does hard plastic or composite. There is very little "kevlar" (I don't even think this is a thing) and very little composite material in shoulder/elbow pads... What composite IS there, is mostly just there for keeping the pad's form, and as protection from slashing. The majority of the pad composition, is foam.

The equipment is really not a factor in the least. I'm not even sure where this notion came from. It seems to be nothing more than a talking point for the good ol' boys that played hockey when the equipment was crappy fabric and foam, that got saturated the first 5 minutes you were on the ice, and offered very little in the way of actual protection. It's a fallacy, that isn't based on any actual facts, or evidence.

 

[BK]

Do you actually own any of the hockey equipment in question? I don't ask to be an ass. I ask because....in my experience, you are completely off base. They have actually gone the opposite direction in the last 20+ years. I still have shoulder pads and elbow pads from the mid to late 90's in my garage. Top of the line gear that I wore in high school. I also have top of the line elbow pads I bought in the last year, and upper/middle tier shoulder pads, that are also around a year old. The old pads are significantly harder, have more plastic, and are heavier, than the pads I have now. It's not even close really.

New equipment has a lot more impact absorbing, lightweight, super-foam material, than it does hard plastic or composite. There is very little "kevlar (I don't even think this is a thing) and very little composite material in shoulder/elbow pads... What composite IS there, is mostly just there for keeping the pad's form, and as protection from slashing. The majority of the pad composition, is foam.

The equipment is really not a factor in the least. I'm not even sure where this notion came from. It seems to be nothing more than a talking point for the good ol' boys that played hockey when the equipment was crappy fabric and foam, that got saturated the first 5 minutes you were on the ice, and offered very little in the way of actual protection. It's a fallacy, that isn't based on any actual facts, or evidence.

Kevlar in gear is a thing. Skates, socks, and other pieces.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Kevlar in gear is a thing. Skates, socks, and other pieces.

Skates and socks, yes, to a degree. Most high-end pads are primarily high-density foam with small composite shells in certain places. I have a 10 year old pair of vapors I never wear, and they're almost entirely high density foam, even the shoulder caps. Composite in the spine, chest, and bicep areas.

Bauer Vapor 1X Lite Hockey Shoulder Pads - Senior | Pure Hockey Equipment

 

[featherhawk]

Do you actually own any of the hockey equipment in question? I don't ask to be an ass. I ask because....in my experience, you are completely off base. They have actually gone the opposite direction in the last 20+ years. I still have shoulder pads and elbow pads from the mid to late 90's in my garage. Top of the line gear that I wore in high school. I also have top of the line elbow pads I bought in the last year, and upper/middle tier shoulder pads, that are also around a year old. The old pads are significantly harder, have more plastic, and are heavier, than the pads I have now. It's not even close really.

New equipment has a lot more impact absorbing, lightweight, super-foam material, than it does hard plastic or composite. There is very little "kevlar (I don't even think this is a thing) and very little composite material in shoulder/elbow pads... What composite IS there, is mostly just there for keeping the pad's form, and as protection from slashing. The majority of the pad composition, is foam.

The equipment is really not a factor in the least. I'm not even sure where this notion came from. It seems to be nothing more than a talking point for the good ol' boys that played hockey when the equipment was crappy fabric and foam, that got saturated the first 5 minutes you were on the ice, and offered very little in the way of actual protection. It's a fallacy, that isn't based on any actual facts, or evidence.

not sure what they are using now so I googled it so it seems that what you describe above may be accurate to some degree however the description of the equipment does still say composites, difficult to say if the composite in the present pads are not contributing, my guess is they still do; having said that what I saw being used 5 years ago and beyond which included some being absolutely solid composite type of materials and in some of the years they were not covered at all and they were hard as stone and when you tapped them on a table you could tell they would do more damage than the fabric and foam which was what we know historically as elbow and shoulder pads, which was precisely what I played with when I was playing as youngster.

 

[BK]

Skates and socks, yes, to a degree. Most high end pads are primarily high density foam with small composite shells in certain places.

Bauer Vapor 1X Lite Hockey Shoulder Pads - Senior | Pure Hockey Equipment

Correct

 

[ChiHawks10]

not sure what they are using now so I googled it so it seems that what you describe above may be accurate to some degree however the description of the equipment does still say composites, difficult to say if the composite in the present pads are not contributing, my guess is they still do; having said that what I saw being used 5 years ago and beyond which was absolutely solid composite type of materials and in some of the years they were not covered at all and they were hard as stone and when you tapped them on a table you could tell they would do more damage than the fabric and foam which was what we know historically as elbow and shoulder pads, which was precisely what I played with when I was playing as youngster.

Almost all elbow and shoulder pads, now, are mostly high density foam with very thin composite shells on a couple spots, much of the time sandwiched between layers of foam.

 

[Pez68]

Kevlar in gear is a thing. Skates, socks, and other pieces.

Socks are the only piece of equipment I know of that is predominantly kevlar. Those are specific, cut-resistant socks, and they are advertised as such. They also use it in goalie helmets(not within this realm of discussion). I know kevlar is blended into hockey sticks, but I don't know of any other piece of protective equipment that uses kevlar. I would think the manufacturers would most certainly be using "kevlar" in their descriptions to draw attention and wow people into buying the equipment, if it was present?

I think the only equipment description I've seen mention kevlar at all in the last decade is shin guards, and I haven't seen that in a really long time.

Regardless....I doubt that an aramid fiber being used in shoulder pads or elbow pads, even if it IS present, makes those pads more dangerous...

 

[ChiHawks10]

Socks are the only piece of equipment I know of that is predominantly kevlar. Those are specific, cut-resistant socks, and they are advertised as such. They also use it in goalie helmets(not within this realm of discussion). I know kevlar is blended into hockey sticks, but I don't know of any other piece of protective equipment that uses kevlar. I would think the manufacturers would most certainly be using "kevlar" in their descriptions to draw attention and wow people into buying the equipment, if it was present?

I think the only equipment description I've seen mention kevlar at all in the last decade is shin guards, and I haven't seen that in a really long time.

Regardless....I doubt that an aramid fiber being used in shoulder pads or elbow pads, even if it IS present, makes those pads more dangerous...

There isn't any really in shoulder, shin, or elbow pads. Some skates have kevlar tongues or toe caps, I believe. And then there's kevlar socks like you said, and kevlar in goalie masks.

 

[BK]

Socks are the only piece of equipment I know of that is predominantly kevlar. Those are specific, cut-resistant socks, and they are advertised as such. They also use it in goalie helmets(not within this realm of discussion). I know kevlar is blended into hockey sticks, but I don't know of any other piece of protective equipment that uses kevlar. I would think the manufacturers would most certainly be using "kevlar" in their descriptions to draw attention and wow people into buying the equipment, if it was present?

I think the only equipment description I've seen mention kevlar at all in the last decade is shin guards, and I haven't seen that in a really long time.

Regardless....I doubt that an aramid fiber being used in shoulder pads or elbow pads, even if it IS present, makes those pads more dangerous...

Kevlar has been woven into skates since like 1998 (CCM). Nothing is completely Kevlar. Just Kevlar reinforced.

Not you or your brother but I have a feeling not everyone knows what Kevlar really is.