TSN says McDavid is potentially better than Gretzky

[HolyHagelin]

You clearly missed my point lol. From a pure skill standpoint, most players are faster skaters, more accurate shooters, better stickhandlers, stronger etc. Lots of improvements in technology, training, health/fitness etc.

Just like how every single sprinter in the 2020 mens 100m absolutely dusted the gold medalist time in the 1980 olympics. The 2020 group was objectively faster sprinters, but they were not "better" sprinters.

I also went on to explain how that's irrelevant because the best way to compare is relative to your peers.

You said “objectively better hockey players.” What if I told you Gretzky wasn’t the best because of tangible measurable factors like stength and speed, but instead because he was a savant *at hockey.* Is your contention that modern players are better at high speed processing on the ice during play?

 

[filinski77]

This whole humans have advanced millions of years in two decades argument that pervades HF is truly exhausting.

You're taking it far, no one is claiming that they've advanced millions of years lol.

1980 Olympics: Mens 100m gold winner = 10.25 seconds
2020 Olympics Mens 100m gold winner = 9.80 seconds.

In fact, almost 40 runners ran a 10.05 or lower to even QUALIFY for the olympics in 2020. All of them would have destroyed the gold winner from 1980. Does not make them better runners. But objectively, faster yes.

This is an easy question to answer, you already know the answer, you just won’t accept it because it makes it basically impossible for any player to surpass gretzky

But that’s the thing about being the ALL TIME GOAT

It was impossible for Gretzky to dominate the way he did too. For someone to pass gretz, they need to score more than gretz

Only one player has scored 200 points in a season, and that player did it 4x

If you’re going to be better than Wayne, there’s your first bar to cross. 200 points



Bullshit, do you think fitness was invented in the new millennium or something?

Have a look at gordie how and compare him to Ovechkin and McDavid

This fitness argument is ignorant

What's ignorant is acting like we as humans have not made significant fitness and athletic strides in 30 years.

What's ignorant is acting like being jacked (Gordie) = being fit/athletic.

Your boomer is showing.

 

[CupofOil]

I never said anything that opposes that. I understand that Gretzky played in a time where technology, health/fitness, athleticism was lower overall.

You said, unless I'm mistaken, that most modern players are objectively better at hockey than Gretzky implying exactly that, that most players today are better at hockey than Gretzky not more athletic but better at hockey.

Now, if you said that there are a lot of players that skate faster, shoot harder etc. then sure but better at hockey implies something completely different.

From a pure natural skill standpoint, pure physical talent, there are plenty of guys that had/have more of that than Gretzky but that alone doesn't make them better at hockey. Where players, like every player in history, falls behind Gretzky is the thinking aspect, the hockey brain and THAT is what separates him from the rest.

 

[Elvs]

Here's the only real truth:

1) Most modern players are objectively better at hockey than Gretzky was. Athletes are just miles better.

How do you figure most players today are better than Gretzky, when Matt Cullen of all people played in the NHL only a few years ago, at the age of 43?

 

[blundluntman]

Here's the only real truth:

1) Most modern players are objectively better at hockey than Gretzky was. Athletes are just miles better.

2) But relative to their peers and how dominant they were? Not even close lol.
-> Gretzky lead the league in points 11 times to McDavids 5.
-> Gretzky lead the league in goals 5 times to McDavids 1
-> Gretzky lead the league in assists 16 times to McDavids 3

This is like saying modern college graduates have a higher IQ than Isaac Newton because they know more theoretical literature than he does. They're not better at hockey than he was, they're just better equipped and better trained.

 

[Voight]

McDavid may very well retire with a trophy case superior to everyone not named Gretzky.

But as great as he is, I dont see him retiring as the GOAT. Gretzky was just so dominant.

 

[Overrated]

You're taking it far, no one is claiming that they've advanced millions of years lol.

1980 Olympics: Mens 100m gold winner = 10.25 seconds
2020 Olympics Mens 100m gold winner = 9.80 seconds.

In fact, almost 40 runners ran a 10.05 or lower to even QUALIFY for the olympics in 2020. All of them would have destroyed the gold winner from 1980. Does not make them better runners. But objectively, faster yes.


What's ignorant is acting like we as humans have not made significant fitness and athletic strides in 30 years.

What's ignorant is acting like being jacked (Gordie) = being fit/athletic.

Your boomer is showing.

Much of that difference is down to technology

Research finds high-tech shoe actually reduces race times for elite athletes

Shoe technology has measurably improved performance of elite long-distance runners: Frontiers in Sports and Active Living

www.frontiersin.org

Advanced Shoes Boost Elite Sprint Performance

A scientific study sheds light on the potential game-changing impact of advanced footwear technology (AFT) on elite sprint performances in track and field.

www.newswise.com

 

[filinski77]

You said “objectively better hockey players.” What if I told you Gretzky wasn’t the best because of tangible measurable factors like stength and speed, but instead because he was a savant *at hockey.* Is your contention that modern players are better at high speed processing on the ice during play?

There are so many factors that go into being a good hockey player and the skills involved.

Gretzky's IQ was off the charts 100%, and would be one of the easiest to transition. But the overall hockey IQ of every player is still a lot higher in a vaccuum today. (due to better coaching, video playback etc.

I 100% support that if Gretzky was born in 1996 and had all of the same training and technology, that he would STILL win 11 art rosses. I have never denied that. It's just that we're comparing something totally different.

Much of that difference is down to technology

Research finds high-tech shoe actually reduces race times for elite athletes

Shoe technology has measurably improved performance of elite long-distance runners: Frontiers in Sports and Active Living

www.frontiersin.org

Advanced Shoes Boost Elite Sprint Performance

A scientific study sheds light on the potential game-changing impact of advanced footwear technology (AFT) on elite sprint performances in track and field.

www.newswise.com

Did you even read these articles?

One was referencing long distance running (which I didn't mention at all), plus it still only talks about the cnage from 2012 to 2019.

The other one that was about sprinting only talks about changes from 2016 to 2022 lol.

Get out of here

 

[jigglysquishy]

You're taking it far, no one is claiming that they've advanced millions of years lol.

1980 Olympics: Mens 100m gold winner = 10.25 seconds
2020 Olympics Mens 100m gold winner = 9.80 seconds.

In fact, almost 40 runners ran a 10.05 or lower to even QUALIFY for the olympics in 2020. All of them would have destroyed the gold winner from 1980. Does not make them better runners. But objectively, faster yes.

Most of this does come down to technology/materials and yes, the chemical enhancements.

The David Epstein video does a good job of breaking down the tech differences



Normalizing technology, is Usain Bolt the fastest ever? Yes. But if we look at gold medalists from 1970-2000, once they get the benefit of modern footwear and clothing, the 10.25-9.80 second gap closes significantly.

The best example of this in hockey is the stick technology. I can whip shots far better now than I could 20 years ago despite being out of shape and playing hockey 1% as often. Because the sticks are infinitely better.


If you were to make an honest best whatever list, whether that's hockey or any sport, you would get a smattering of players from different eras.

Some day someone will break Gretzky's point records. Some day someone will break his 11x leading the league in points. Some day a defenseman will win an Art Ross while being elite defensively. Hockey has had too many impossibles happen for me to believe these impossibles will never be broken.

 

[Overrated]

How do you figure most players today are better than Gretzky, when Matt Cullen of all people played in the NHL only a few years ago, at the age of 43?

And Jagr not only played but was a star player at 43/44

 

[Strangle]

I mean we will never know but they could be right.

The quality of competition (ie the skill and work ethic of the average NHL player) is significantly higher than when Gretzky played. Goalies are also better in terms of technique and equipment. Coaching and system structures are improved. Basically, everything is improved so it it is harder for a player to separate themselves from the pack as much as when Gretzky played.

This message board hates having all time greats compared to modern NHL players and is often blinded by nostalgia or is mystified by the legends. The reality is that athletes continue to get better over time and the NHL is no exception. There’s a reason why Olympic records are routinely broken in sports that are more objective in measuring success (track and field, swimming, etc).

Bro, you don’t know what you’re talking about

Carl Lewis ran a 9.92 in 1988 the current 100m record is over a decade old and is only 9.58 now

Huge strides have been made in human achievement from the 80’s until today? Ya I call bullshit on that

They’ve been shaving the 100m record by literally thousands of a second for 40 years

 

[Cup or Bust]

Gretzky is the greatest player of all time and it is not debatable. Putting things into context though, most goalies in the 80's were under 5'10. There was no salary cap so you could play with 5 other Hall of Famers if your team was able to acquire them. Gretzky played on a team that scored over 400 goals in a season for 5 straight years. Even if Gretzky played today in his prime, no team in the league is scoring 400 goals in a season, it would be impossible to score even close to what Gretzky did in the 80's or have that kind of separation between himself and other top scorers. It would be impossible to dominate at that level again, the league is far more competitive now.

At best you can just make a reasonable comparison using context, but you cannot take anything away from Gretzky because he joined the league under the conditions that existed at the time and absolutely blew the league out of the water.

 

[Strangle]

You're taking it far, no one is claiming that they've advanced millions of years lol.

1980 Olympics: Mens 100m gold winner = 10.25 seconds
2020 Olympics Mens 100m gold winner = 9.80 seconds.

In fact, almost 40 runners ran a 10.05 or lower to even QUALIFY for the olympics in 2020. All of them would have destroyed the gold winner from 1980. Does not make them better runners. But objectively, faster yes.


What's ignorant is acting like we as humans have not made significant fitness and athletic strides in 30 years.

What's ignorant is acting like being jacked (Gordie) = being fit/athletic.

Your boomer is showing.

Go tell Arnold or Tyson that they didn’t know how to stay in shape lmao

You have no idea what you’re talking about, kid. Pull your pants up and get a job and stay out of it when grown ups are talking

 

[Albatros]

McDavid may very well retire with a trophy case superior to everyone not named Gretzky.

 

[pld459666]

I understand why the statement was made.

I think most would agree that the talent level today 1 thru 18 for skaters is better than the 80's

Goalies for the most part are alot better today.

Defensive schemes are tougher today than the 80's.

What McDavid is doing today is VERY much like what Gretzky was doing to teams in the 80s.

Granted, McDavid doesn't have to deal with the same level of physicality that the game presented 40 years ago, but what he IS doing today is, IMHO, almost as impressive.

 

[Overrated]

There are so many factors that go into being a good hockey player and the skills involved.

Gretzky's IQ was off the charts 100%, and would be one of the easiest to transition. But the overall hockey IQ of every player is still a lot higher in a vaccuum today. (due to better coaching, video playback etc.

I 100% support that if Gretzky was born in 1996 and had all of the same training and technology, that he would STILL win 11 art rosses. I have never denied that. It's just that we're comparing something totally different.


Did you even read these articles?

One was referencing long distance running (which I didn't mention at all), plus it still only talks about the cnage from 2012 to 2019.

The other one that was about sprinting only talks about changes from 2016 to 2022 lol.

Get out of here

The point was that even in such a sport where technology plays a seemingly minor role it still explains most of the improvements in results. Did you not get it? This is an interesting lecture on the topic:


I remember watching even a better video on the topic a few years ago but wasn't able to find it.

 

[Strangle]

I understand why the poll was made.

I think most would agree that the talent level today 1 thru 18 for skaters is better than the 80's

Goalies for the most part are alot better today.

Defensive schemes are tougher today than the 80's.

What McDavid is doing today is VERY much like what Gretzky was doing to teams in the 80s.

Granted, McDavid doesn't have to deal with the same level of physicality that the game presented 40 years ago, but what he IS doing today is, IMHO, almost as impressive.

To be the man, you’ve got to beat the man

 

[pld459666]

To be the man, you’ve got to beat the man

Whoooooooooo

 

[Forgot About Drai]

Mcdavid is the most talented player of all time IMO but Gretzky is the best player of all time. You just cant compete with those numbers.

 

[Strangle]

Mcdavid is the most talented player of all time IMO but Gretzky is the best player of all time. You just cant compete with those numbers.

Gretzky is the most dominant athlete of all time

It’s a high bar to reach and I have no patience for these kids trying to lower it for anyone

 

[hamzarocks]

No.

Gretzky had 1963 career assists.

Jagr is 2nd all time in points at 1921. So Gretzky has more assists than 2nd place has points.

Gretzky also played about 250 less games.

McDavid is a great player but no one compares to Gretzky, and no one likely ever will.

Your point while right is presented to make Gretzky look better than he was

Jagr is a fringe top 10 player all time. Comparison with him of course looks bad to the GOAT

Gretzky has 1 rival and that was Lemieux

Lemieux is maybe <5% worse as a player than Gretzky was. Just had horrible injury luck.

Mcdavid is probably going to end #3 all time and be <10% worse than Gretzky. He has a chance to be in same tier as Lemieux if he keeps this up.

Mcdavid right now is more dominant at his sport than Lebron James was before 2012 when he got his first ring

6 rosses, 5 lindsay, 4 harts he will have after 9 years (assuming he wns this season all 3 which hes on track for)

Lebron got ring #1 in year 9 and then added 3 more along the way. He is in a 1A/1B situation with Jordan for GOAT of NBA with opinions being close

Mcdavid if he adds 3-4 more of these type years and gets 2-3 cups has a legitmate GOAT argument over Gretzky

 

[HugeInTheShire]

I remember doing hockey pools in the Gretzky era, if you got the 1st pick you had to choose between Gretzky's assists or Gretzky's goals. You weren't allowed to simply take Gretzky as it would almost guarantee you won.

When McDavid has this level of dominance over his peers, he can be in the conversation. Until then it's Gretzky.

 

[ZDH]

Why is the most talented player ever ranked 43rd in goals scored this season when he is at the absolute peak of his powers? View attachment 842504

Because he missed a ton of games earlier in the year?

 

[Overrated]

Because he missed a ton of games earlier in the year?

He has played 68 out of possible 74 games this season.

 

[HolyHagelin]

Because he missed a ton of games earlier in the year?

2. McDavid missed 2 games. Not “a ton.”