Injury Report: Trouba - returned from concussion 03/31

[Mortimer Snerd]

well, Trouba seems to also be injury prone. past injuries were rumoured to be similar to Bogo's.

in the end, i wonder if we have to admit that Trouba and Scheifele may be a bit injury prone

Bambi is definitely a bit injury proned. I wonder which players aren't.

Almost all players get injured periodically. Its a rough game. So I think we need to take a little care in throwing around a term like 'injury prone'. Some players are more breakable, the Buck Pierce syndrome. Some players have a style that leads to more injuries, like Matty P.

No data but I'm pretty sure Dmen are injured more than F's so we need to use a little different standard for them. There must be data available somewhere that would give us averages for D, wingers, C and goalies. I don't have the numbers though. I think a player would need to miss more than the average number of games per year before we could start calling them injury prone.

Just looking at Trouba's games per season looks a little worse than it is because he chose to sit out the first 20 games last year. That was not injury related. The year before last he played 81 games, last year 60. That is a total of 23 games missed over 2 years but how many to injury? Not certain but I think it was 20 for the holdout, 1 for suspension. That leaves only 2 to injury in 2 years. This year is going to be a bad one. He might miss 30. But that still means an avg of about 10 games missed per year over 3 years. My guess is, that is less than the avg for a Dman.

If we assume Scheifele stays healthy for the rest of this season he will avg a little more than 71 games per season over 5 years. I'd guess that would be pretty close to the avg for C's, maybe just a little worse.

I wouldn't call either of them more injury prone than normal unless they have another year or two missing a lot of games to injury. I'm just going by my perceptions here since I don't have any real data to compare to.

 

[GNP]

I'll agree that in watching the video it doesn't look like much, so why did Trouba react like he did?

It appears this was a chin shot, something the boxers you reference in your post are often on the wrong end of. Your post hints that this is not severe & that boxers routinely get up & return to win fight afterwards. Although this has certainly happened it hasn't been often. I'd suggest you've seen Rocky a few too many times or recent St. Patricks day celebrations have had you listen to Chumpawamba on repeat. Those that get "knocked down" most often "don't get up again" & can't claim "you'll never gonna keep me down."

A chin shot is one of the most damaging punches. The knockout that occurs after landing one creates trauma that is the very definition of what a concussion is.

Displacement of Brain

A fighter who cannot sustain a powerful punch to the jaw and is easily knocked out is said to have no chin or a glass jaw, according to boxing and mixed martial arts trainer Ross Enamait. A knockout punch snaps the head to the back or side and smashes the brain against the skull. The impact may traumatize the brainstem, resulting in loss of motor control. Blood supply to the brain can be cut off.

Force of the Blow

Impact to the brain is determined by the acceleration of the head and how forcefully it is snapped. Any blow to the head can cause a knockout, not just a punch to the jaw. The greater the force, the more quickly the head will turn following impact and the more the brain will be displaced and blood vessels compressed to the point of causing immediate unconsciousness.

Neck & Jaw Muscles

When an opponent is surprised by a blow to the head, his neck and jaw muscles are loose. If he is braced for the impact, a fighter can better absorb the impact of the punch, lessening the force of displacement. Some fighters have more stable jaws due to the anatomy they inherit but strengthening the neck muscles may help better handle impact to the jaw, according to "Fight Magazine" author Mike Chiappetta.

Recovery

In boxing, a technical knockout usually requires 45 days off before a fighter returns to the ring, or he will be more susceptible to another knockout, according to Osric King, sports medicine physician and medical adviser for the New York State Athletic Commission. After a single knockout involving loss of consciousness, there needs to be a recovery period of at least 60 to 90 days. Chronic brain injury is more likely in cases of repeated blows to a boxer's head, according to the British Medical Association.

_____________________________________________________

Hey--thanks Fonz for offering me some clarity on the concussion issue. I will say this -- I've seen Sugar Ray Leonard, and Ali get knocked down to the canvas -- only to come back and win the fight. As for Rocky --well --I don't know ?? We're all fans of the Rocky type hero that comes back--against all odds.

But generally I get your point -- and to a large extent your right, about those chin shots, and the head snapping back. I agree, it's very hard to recover from, and most boxers, won't get up. Their out cold !!!

 

[Jets2point0]

No......

Latest from Maurice yesterday was he was feeling "pretty darn good" Trouba was in concussion protocol, was to see a specialist and they would have a better idea of things in a few days.

Thanks Aavco, always appreciate your updates

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

_____________________________________________________

Hey--thanks Fonz for offering me some clarity on the concussion issue. I will say this -- I've seen Sugar Ray Leonard, and Ali get knocked down to the canvas -- only to come back and win the fight. As for Rocky --well --I don't know ?? We're all fans of the Rocky type hero that comes back--against all odds.

But generally I get your point -- and to a large extent your right, about those chin shots, and the head snapping back. I agree, it's very hard to recover from, and most boxers, won't get up. Their out cold !!!

I saw Sugar Ray get knocked down as well, by our own Golden Boy, Donny Lalonde, although the fourth round knock down, only the 2nd of Leonard's career, wasn't a chin shot.

He certainly got up again and eventually won the fight, much to the dismay of myself & everyone else watching at the old Winnipeg Arena on closed circuit television.

Donny also landed two solid chin shots in the ninth yet somehow they hardly affected Leonard who 30 seconds later landed a barrage of punches that would end the fight.

 

[GNP]

I saw Sugar Ray get knocked down as well, by our own Golden Boy, Donny Lalonde.

He certainly got up again and eventually won the fight, much to the dismay of myself & everyone else watching at the old Winnipeg Arena on closed circuit television.

________________________________________________________

Well Fonz--that Donny Lalonde could throw a really hard punch--"for sure"- even Sugar Ray admits that.

I will say this about Leonard -- he is one of the toughest smaller fighters I've ever seen. If you saw him fight a very tough Tommy Hearns -- 2 times, and Hagler ( I believe) -- you'd know exactly what I mean. He sure took a lot of punches in the 2nd fight vs Hearns and was knocked down a couple times, but got up "everytime". He's one of my favorite fighters of all time.

Note -- I'd love to see Leonard in his prime -- fight Floyd Mayweather ( undefeated) in his prime. I'd put my money on Sugar Ray- "because he had knockout power"--same thing he did to Lalonde.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

Interesting read about Lalonde's former trainer. Just read this. I had no idea.

In 2006, Teddy Atlas published his autobiography, Atlas: From the Streets to the Ring: A Son's Struggle to Become a Man. In the book, he revealed that he came close to murdering Lalonde.

"When he made six million for Leonard, it tore me up," Atlas wrote. "It made me murderous." If Atlas had not been fired by Lalonde and he had trained him for the Leonard fight, he would've gotten 10% of his purse, $600,000.

Atlas described getting a gun and going to Lalonde's apartment building in New York City. After getting buzzed into the building by another tenant, Atlas went to Lalonde's apartment and knocked on the door. "If he had opened the door, he was dead," Atlas wrote. "I would have pulled the trigger, turned around, and walked away." However, there was no answer.

Atlas waited through the night for Lalonde to return, periodically phoning the apartment. When he finally got through, Lalonde's girlfriend answered. When asked if Lalonde was home, she said yes. Atlas hung up and started making his way over to the apartment. Somewhere along the way, for whatever reason, Atlas changed his mind.

Lalonde knew nothing about it until the book came out and a friend told him about it. "It actually didn't surprise me when I heard it," he said. "Teddy got into fights with trainers and fighters quite a bit when I was with him. He may not be the most stable person walking around."

 

[GNP]

Interesting read about Lalonde's former trainer. Just read this. I had no idea.

In 2006, Teddy Atlas published his autobiography, Atlas: From the Streets to the Ring: A Son's Struggle to Become a Man. In the book, he revealed that he came close to murdering Lalonde.

"When he made six million for Leonard, it tore me up," Atlas wrote. "It made me murderous." If Atlas had not been fired by Lalonde and he had trained him for the Leonard fight, he would've gotten 10% of his purse, $600,000.

Atlas described getting a gun and going to Lalonde's apartment building in New York City. After getting buzzed into the building by another tenant, Atlas went to Lalonde's apartment and knocked on the door. "If he had opened the door, he was dead," Atlas wrote. "I would have pulled the trigger, turned around, and walked away." However, there was no answer.

Atlas waited through the night for Lalonde to return, periodically phoning the apartment. When he finally got through, Lalonde's girlfriend answered. When asked if Lalonde was home, she said yes. Atlas hung up and started making his way over to the apartment. Somewhere along the way, for whatever reason, Atlas changed his mind.

Lalonde knew nothing about it until the book came out and a friend told him about it. "It actually didn't surprise me when I heard it," he said. "Teddy got into fights with trainers and fighters quite a bit when I was with him. He may not be the most stable person walking around."

_____________________________________________________

Hey Fonz- thanks for the great story on Lalonde here and Teddy Atlas, and it doesn't surprise me. I also met a guy here in Winnipeg that claimed to me he was Lalonde's manager here in Winnipeg -- but Lalonde dumped him. I won't mention his name.

Man that Ray Leonard was "one tough"--SOB. I've seem him take huge shots, and it didn't look like they fazed him, buit I'm sure they did. Thanks for the highlights of that Lalonde fight. If Donny wouldn't have thrown such wide looping punches, he just may have won that fight -- but to beat Sugar Ray -- I sort of doubt it. Ray also had stamina and could go 15 rounds like he did with Hearns in their 1st fight. Incredible fighter --and maybe concussion free.

 

[Hobble]

Injury prone is used too loosely.

Shouldn't be from a guy taking a bad hit or shoulder to head.

Injury prone is Dustin Penner and Sami Salo, who get injured bending over to pick up crackers or pancakes and whatever.

 

[scelaton]

He suffered a concussion. This is a form of brain damage. You don't just "shrug" these things off - many boxers end up with CTE after their careers are done.

You can NOT tell how bad the concussion was via his on-ice behavior. See: Kariya.

This is all true.
Despite all the armchair neurologists around here, no one really knows how bad a concussion is for an individual, because people respond differently. We are at the very, very beginning of concussion research, not even the first inning, more like spring training. Concussion protocols are based on expert opinion, not on great science. So, for someone here to say someone needs stay out for X days or weeks is just a non-expert opinion on an opinion.
The positive side of it all is that there are an awful lot of random hits to the head in sports and most athletes--aside from those unfortunate souls who get repeated blows, like boxers and linemen-- bounce back fairly quickly and do well. Why some don't is a question that no legitimate expert can answer yet.

 

[EastRiver]

When it comes to concussions it is hard to compare one concussion to another concussion because everyone responds to head trauma differently and recovers from head injuries different. Also it is not a good idea to compare concussion diagnosis/treatment now to concussion diagnosis/treatment then because we know so much more about them now then we did now. Back then having your "bell rung" was not not thought to be serious, just like smoking cigarettes was not thought to be bad. I would suggest that having your "bell rung" is just a made up term that should not be used, any head injury is a serious injury and should be treated as such.

 

[Aavco Cup]

Also no two concussions are exactly the same. The portion of the brain that bangs against the inside of the skull is different in each case as is the severity of that impact

 

[GNP]

When it comes to concussions it is hard to compare one concussion to another concussion because everyone responds to head trauma differently and recovers from head injuries different. Also it is not a good idea to compare concussion diagnosis/treatment now to concussion diagnosis/treatment then because we know so much more about them now then we did now. Back then having your "bell rung" was not not thought to be serious, just like smoking cigarettes was not thought to be bad. I would suggest that having your "bell rung" is just a made up term that should not be used, any head injury is a serious injury and should be treated as such.

________________________________________________________

I see what your saying here -- but where do we draw the line ?? Are we going to get way "overprotective" ? Is being rammed into the glass, or boards-head first, good for your brain-- I don't think so.

I think we have to look at history -- and for Hockey specifically, most NHL players over the long term have all fared not to badly. I think boxers and fighters are different though ?? So what do you do--ban these sports ?? It won't happen !!!

 

[EastRiver]

________________________________________________________

I see what your saying here -- but where do we draw the line ?? Are we going to get way "overprotective" ? Is being rammed into the glass, or boards-head first, good for your brain-- I don't think so.

I think we have to look at history -- and for Hockey specifically, most NHL players over the long term have all fared not to badly. I think boxers and fighters are different though ?? So what do you do--ban these sports ?? It won't happen !!!

I think where we draw the line is much different now than it was 5-10 years ago. Because we know more about them now than we did then. And as we know more the line will continue to change. IMO head injures are the one injury where we should be overprotective. Head injuries improperly treated can have a significant impact on your life later on. I also don't think we should look at history to compare because when we do we are comparing to a much different time. It is the same as looking back 50 years ago and saying people fared well smoking, we just didn't know they weren't.

 

[GNP]

I think where we draw the line is much different now than it was 5-10 years ago. Because we know more about them now than we did then. And as we know more the line will continue to change. IMO head injures are the one injury where we should be overprotective. Head injuries improperly treated can have a significant impact on your life later on. I also don't think we should look at history to compare because when we do we are comparing to a much different time. It is the same as looking back 50 years ago and saying people fared well smoking, we just didn't know they weren't.

______________________________________________________

Well in a perfect world, where everyone has cushy jobs, them maybe we could apply your protective policies--re head injuries etc.

If you've ever watched the UFC where guys are allowed to kick each other in the head, or guys are allowed to elbow a guy when he's down, and smash his nose into his face, I think we're going backwards -- "not forward." Those fights are "brutal."

A lot of those fighters come from the ghetto or a very poor economic background, and fight to "make money"--to survive in this world. A lot will suffer irrepairable damage to their brains.

I don't see things changing much except in sports like the NFL, and NHL where there's a lot of money floating around, and teams, and or govenor's want to protect against future law suits. I see it changing here--"but the show must go on."

Your comparison to Cigs is really not that good --as alcohol is "way worse" for you, and destroys many lives--and it won't go away.--- "money talks"

 

[EastRiver]

______________________________________________________

Well in a perfect world, where everyone has cushy jobs, them maybe we could apply your protective policies--re head injuries etc.

If you've ever watched the UFC where guys are allowed to kick each other in the head, or guys are allowed to elbow a guy when he's down, and smash his nose into his face, I think we're going backwards -- "not forward." Those fights are "brutal."

A lot of those fighters come from the ghetto or a very poor economic background, and fight to "make money"--to survive in this world. A lot will suffer irrepairable damage to their brains.

I don't see things changing much except in sports like the NFL, and NHL where there's a lot of money floating around, and teams, and or govenor's want to protect against future law suits. I see it changing here--"but the show must go on."

Your comparison to Cigs is really not that good --as alcohol is "way worse" for you, and destroys many lives--and it won't go away.--- "money talks"

To me there is no argument for allowing head injuries because people need to make money, but that is just my opinion. We can agree to disagree there. I get that players in the NFL and NHL make more than enough money to live on after they retire but for me I would never sacrifice my mental capacities to make millions. Also I think there are enough other job opportunities for me that I don't feel the need to risk head injuries to make money. My comparison to cigarettes was that we didn't know about their negative effects for a period of time, just like we didn't know about the negative effects of concussions, and still don't know much about them .

 

[Coach]

patrik laine

Medical staff make the determination on when a player can return the club doesn't. The Jets were not going to make the playoffs last year so why would they risk his health. Now you can question the medical approval process but not the club.

 

[GNP]

Well- I do agree with you on a lot of aspects of what you say--and I really respect someone who has strong convictions, and sticks to their guns. I really do agree with you on "not" sacrificing your mental capacity for money--"but people will do it." I wouldn't either.

Look at driving cars -- we drove without seatbelts for 50 years, and it was just in the last 20 years, they became mandatory. Did you drive with seatbelts on 30 years ago ? I didn't. Do you drink ?- probably yes--and it causes liver cancer. ( no doubt about it) It's all about "control" and moderation here. One drink a day is OK-but 10 "is not." Everybody knows the risks, and they govern themselves accordingly.

We have to come to a point of "reasonable risk control"-- I would agree with that, and from what I see with concussion protocols--it's starting to happen. I don't think it will happen in sports like boxing or mixed martial arts ( UFC) ? So, what are we to do ?--ban these kind of sports ?? I just don't see that happening. I'm being realistic here.

 

[Easternbull]

There are many intersting books on the subject but apart from featuring willsmith this movie was very informative.



The number of hits/concussions profootball players encounter in their active years can perhaps be compared to the goons of the nhl's past who have had similiar problems after retiring from the sport.

 

[Easternbull]

www.metronews.ca/sports/2017/04/23/study-nhl-players-concussions-yields-surprising-results.html

 

[Jet]

Wow this thread got very political.

Can the OP or a mod update the title to reflect the latest news?

 

[HannuJ]

I wouldn't call either of them more injury prone than normal unless they have another year or two missing a lot of games to injury. I'm just going by my perceptions here since I don't have any real data to compare to.

too lazy to look up stats.
but Morrissey's been incredibly resiliant. has he missed any games in his first 2 seasons?
arguably, Trouba and Buff play a bit more of a physical game....but still

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

too lazy to look up stats.
but Morrissey's been incredibly resiliant. has he missed any games in his first 2 seasons?
arguably, Trouba and Buff play a bit more of a physical game....but still

No, Morrissey hasn't missed any games - and he's taken quite a pounding in some. He plays a pretty physical game himself but he picks his times and places well.

He is one I wouldn't mind seeing rested a bit once the PO spots are locked up. I don't think he would like that though. I've never heard of a player liking being healthy scratched, even for a well earned rest.

 

[Evil Little]

too lazy to look up stats.
but Morrissey's been incredibly resiliant. has he missed any games in his first 2 seasons?
arguably, Trouba and Buff play a bit more of a physical game....but still

Please, please, please don't talk about it, though.

 

[Daximus]

No, Morrissey hasn't missed any games - and he's taken quite a pounding in some. He plays a pretty physical game himself but he picks his times and places well.

He is one I wouldn't mind seeing rested a bit once the PO spots are locked up. I don't think he would like that though. I've never heard of a player liking being healthy scratched, even for a well earned rest.

In junior he threw much bigger and more frequent hits. He definitely picks his spots now.

 

[robertocarlos]

On these concussions- I sort of liken them to a "pinball machine" going on tilt. When you shake and jar the machine to much, you upset it's natural equilibrium, and the machine shuts down-- in order to protect itself.


My guess is that he'll be back in about 10 days or so ( maybe sooner) and be playing very well, and things will get back to normal.

Most people want their quarterback.