HF Habs: Trevor Timmins (Part 13)

[Vachon23]

Does he turn to alcohol if he is better insulated, has a coach who supports and helps him grow vs. tearing him down?

Therrien's old school mentality and Bergevin's hands off approach with his skeleton crew doesn't help a player make right choices.

At the same time he’s an adult and he’s a pro. He is responsible of his own act.

My boss didn’t had to take me by the hand to take the right decision

 

[WeThreeKings]

At the same time he’s an adult and he’s a pro. He is responsible of his own act.

My boss didn’t had to take me by the hand to take the right decision

You weren't a teenager who was thrust into the spotlight of professional sports, with the hopes of the most storied and notable hockey franchise pinned on you.

I'm not absolving him of anything but it is easy to see how Therrien and Bergevin contributed to what happened to his career. Carey Price didn't go into the substance abuse program because handling that pressure in Montreal was easy.

If you have a predisposition to addiction and you turn to alcohol to cope, and you have no support system, your bosses aren't helping you and are actively abusive toward you, and throwing intentional roadblocks in the way of you realizing your dream or potential, it's very easy to see how that can get out of hand.

But of course, they insulated him with Zach Kassian, who had a drunk Galchenyuk in his car, as he drove drunk, into a tree.

 

[Vachon23]

You weren't a teenager who was thrust into the spotlight of professional sports, with the hopes of the most storied and notable hockey franchise pinned on you.

I'm not absolving him of anything but it is easy to see how Therrien and Bergevin contributed to what happened to his career. Carey Price didn't go into the substance abuse program because handling that pressure in Montreal was easy.

If you have a predisposition to addiction and you turn to alcohol to cope, and you have no support system, your bosses aren't helping you and are actively abusive toward you, and throwing intentional roadblocks in the way of you realizing your dream or potential, it's very easy to see how that can get out of hand.

But of course, they insulated him with Zach Kassian, who had a drunk Galchenyuk in his car, as he drove drunk, into a tree.

We don’t know though if they tried to help him. I’m
not saying they handle him perfectly but for me the principle responsable it’s Galchenyuk himself.

Gallagher arrived at the same time of him but the difference it’s that he handle himself like a pro and didn’t arrive still hangover the morning and didn’t fall in love with the beautiful snow of Montreal

 

[WeThreeKings]

We don’t know though if they tried to help him. I’m
not saying they handle him perfectly but for me the principle responsable it’s Galchenyuk himself.

Gallagher arrived at the same time of him but the difference it’s that he handle himself like a pro and didn’t arrive still hangover the morning and didn’t fall in love with the beautiful snow of Montreal

We do know they didn't try to help them... they didn't try to help anyone. Hughes and Gorton remarked how little resources there were in the organization for all of these things and it was one of their first missions to fix it.

Gallagher may not have the same predisposition to dependencies like that - you have to understand that there are genetic components to addiction. If I came up in that environment, I would be fine, I don't have an addictive personality, I don't cope with alcohol or drugs, and I am too chicken shit to even try cocaine.. but one of my good friends, he would've probably died from an overdose because he has those predispositions.

Who Galchenyuk was, how driven he was, everything coming out of the draft was squeaky clean.. the bad elements didn't start until a few years into his career and as Therrien devolved back into the egomaniac he was. We know from many reports from many different people from across Therriens' coaching career that at his core he was an asshole, and he played mind games, and we have recorded moments of that on 24CH, now imagine when the cameras weren't rolling?

 

[Vachon23]

We do know they didn't try to help them... they didn't try to help anyone. Hughes and Gorton remarked how little resources there were in the organization for all of these things and it was one of their first missions to fix it.

Gallagher may not have the same predisposition to dependencies like that - you have to understand that there are genetic components to addiction. If I came up in that environment, I would be fine, I don't have an addictive personality, I don't cope with alcohol or drugs, and I am too chicken shit to even try cocaine.. but one of my good friends, he would've probably died from an overdose because he has those predispositions.

Who Galchenyuk was, how driven he was, everything coming out of the draft was squeaky clean.. the bad elements didn't start until a few years into his career and as Therrien devolved back into the egomaniac he was. We know from many reports from many different people from across Therriens' coaching career that at his core he was an asshole, and he played mind games, and we have recorded moments of that on 24CH, now imagine when the cameras weren't rolling?

I agree with all this, but at the end of the day you’re the author of your own story. He could have seek for help, he could have made things different and look at himself in the mirror.

 

[WeThreeKings]

I agree with all this, but at the end of the day you’re the author of your own story. He could have seek for help, he could have made things different and look at himself in the mirror.

He could have - and he should have. But things may very well have been different if he broke in now vs. then, and both sides are to blame.

It's insane that Bergevin was allowed to operate the Habs the way he did over his 10 year tenure. It was woefully understaffed and empty in resources.

 

[Vachon23]

He could have - and he should have. But things may very well have been different if he broke in now vs. then, and both sides are to blame.

It's insane that Bergevin was allowed to operate the Habs the way he did over his 10 year tenure. It was woefully understaffed and empty in resources.

Agree with this !

And from what I understand (could be wrong on that) the initial plan was to have a duo of Jim Nill and Vincent Damphousse

 

[WeThreeKings]

Agree with this !

And from what I understand (could be wrong on that) the initial plan was to have a duo of Jim Nill and Vincent Damphousse

Sucks it didn't go down that way.. I'm happy where we ended up with this new group, but I just feel bad for guys like Price, Subban and Markov who had their career stifled by Bergevin.

 

[Vachon23]

Sucks it didn't go down that way.. I'm happy where we ended up with this new group, but I just feel bad for guys like Price, Subban and Markov who had their career stifled by Bergevin.

we where a top 5 between 2013-15 with Pacioretty as the only offensive weapon and Dd as #1 C. That’s the hardest part for me

 

[DAChampion]

we where a top 5 between 2013-15 with Pacioretty as the only offensive weapon and Dd as #1 C. That’s the hardest part for me

I think the Habs could have competed through to 2017, as the fundamentals were strong. They had an elite goalie, an elite D, and the Atlantic used to be the weakest division in hockey.

 

[Vachon23]

I think the Habs could have competed through to 2017, as the fundamentals were strong. They had an elite goalie, an elite D, and the Atlantic used to be the weakest division in hockey.

That’s the thing I dislike the most about MB, he was to cheap and didn’t want to pay what if take for top players

 

[WeThreeKings]

That’s the thing I dislike the most about MB, he was to cheap and didn’t want to pay what if take for top players

Wouldn't trade his 1st round picks and had no development staff in place. Insanity.

 

[Forsead]

The problem with the Habs is the inability to get significant assets from later (outside top 10) first/second/third round picks (top 6 forwards and top 4 dman types). In this task Timmins, Gauthier and Bergevin failed miserably.

You take top notch organizations (that weren't blessed with incredible luck with draft lottery like Penguins, Blackhawks or Oilers), and that's basically how they manage to keep on top.

Look at the Bruins drafting/developpment since 2003 :
- Mark Stuart (late 1st round)
- Bergeron (2nd round pick)
- Marchand (3rd round pick)
- Krejci (2nd round pick)
- Lucic (2nd round pick)
- Grzelcyk (3rd round pick)
- Pastrnak (late 1st round)
- Carlo (2nd round pick)
- Debrusk (late 1st round)
- McAvoy (late 1st round)

Montreal since 2003 :
- Emelin (3rd round pick)
- Latendresse (2nd round pick)
- McDonagh (late 1st round)
- Pacioretty (late 1st round)
- Subban (2nd round pick)
- Lekhonen (2nd round pick)
- Romanov (2nd round pick)
- Caufield (late 1st round)
- Guhle (late 1st round)

Every organization has their hits with high first round picks and some homeruns with later rounds, what is distinguishable for the Habs is how bad they have been with low first round pick (aka 1st rounder when you're a middling team in the PO or PO battle) and 2nd rounders.

There seems to have a resurgence in the last 2-3 years of Bergevin, but that was so bad between 2008 and 2018. That's what can derail a franchise. Look at what a a screwd GM could have for an asset like Romanov, that's important to build a team.

 

[David Suzuki]

At the same time he’s an adult and he’s a pro. He is responsible of his own act.

My boss didn’t had to take me by the hand to take the right decision

I don't know where you work or what you do but I'm going to guess your (and mine obviously) career development is less important than a third overall picks in the NHL in this market lol. You should 100 percent cater your development strategy to that player as the Habs have seemingly done with Slafkovsky. A one size "it's not my job to develop you/you need to be responsible for your own development" approach is insane in a context as important as a third overall pick.

 

[Habs]

There were legitimate reasons to get excited about Galchenyuk, especially in the stints he got to play center.

His career probably looks a lot different without Therrien and Bergevin.

if it wasn't for Bustchenyuk, we don't get through the Leafs in that playoff run. We should thank him

 

[JeffreyLFC]

Sucks it didn't go down that way.. I'm happy where we ended up with this new group, but I just feel bad for guys like Price, Subban and Markov who had their career stifled by Bergevin.

On the other hand Gallagher, Anderson and Alzner can thank Bergevin for contributing to their retirement funds

 

[Vachon23]

I don't know where you work or what you do but I'm going to guess your (and mine obviously) career development is less important than a third overall picks in the NHL in this market lol. You should 100 percent cater your development strategy to that player as the Habs have seemingly done with Slafkovsky. A one size "it's not my job to develop you/you need to be responsible for your own development" approach is insane in a context as important as a third overall pick.

On the ice I agree

But Slaf is taking care of himself outside the rink

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Galchenyuk been with 10 different teams. He has skill but lacks hockey smarts.

Injuries are what really killed him. He was never the same after the hit with Kopitar. And Julien did him no favours either.

Good pick but even with a stable development, we were not going to get a top 6F stud over the long haul. Hockey IQ and commitment to improving were serious issues with Chucky.

Proper development/opportunity doesn't always turn bronze into gold.

We absolutely were going to get a solid top six player and he proved it time and again under Therrien when given a chance. In the 15-16 season he was easily our best scorer and we buried him on the third line. Then our idiot coach puts him on the first in like March and he goes top ten in the league the rest of the way.

Just mind-blowingly stupid.

it would have helped if he would have been coachable...
He was handled poorly but he also was not coachable.

How can we know this? We gave him the worst coach in the league. A coach who's sole instruction was to 'grind!!!!'

Do you seriously think Slaf would be where he is today if Therrien was his coach? He'd still be on the 3rd or 4th line.

I also thought therrien ruined Chucky , I was naive , its ok to say you were wrong once proven otherwise.

Many things can be true at the same time.

-Therrien absolutely f***ed up Galchenyuk. He was misused and it prevented him from establishing himself as a solid top six player - which is at minimum what he should've been.

-Galchenyuk had injury issues that derailed what should've been a good career. This more than anything is probably what really killed him.

-Galchenyuk had a meddling father and was probably rebelious against his coach who liked to employ bullying tactics.

Bottom line in terms of where Chuck is now and his own issues - he's an adult and he's responsible for them. He can't blame anyone but himself.

However... that doesn't mean we couldn't have helped him. It doesn't mean we didn't put him in the absolutely worst possible environment with a stupid, domineering coach. We didn't give him any real guidance and didn't provide any kind of leadership for him. These are 18 year old kids who aren't fully cooked and we put them in front of a moron who doesn't understand hockey and likes to blow cigarette smoke into player's faces.

How many players/prospects left the game because of the shitty environments we provided? Terry Ryan and Louis Leblanc were both blue chip NHL players who never went anywhere and quit the game altogether because we mismanaged them. It was systemic for years and not surprising at all that we had so many players fall through the cracks.

If Larry Robinson is our coach Galchenyuk establishes himself as a top six guy for sure. No doubt about it. Injuries are the wildcard but at a minimum he'd have been a much, much better player. Secondly, none of us can know if he'd have been made into a better person. I suspect he would've with a leader like Robinson to take him under his wing. And while we can't know the answer to that question, we surely know that Therrien made things worse.

As I said for years here - you don't get to mismanage prosepects and then blame THEM for not producing. We produced great players before MB. We get MB and the only real player we develop is Gallagher. MB leaves and now all of a sudden Timmins' late picks start panning out again - exactly as I said they would.

How much more do people need to see? Why do you think we have Caufield sitting there with one goal over 41 games and then 48 over the next 82? Why is it that the new regime is able to take Timmins' late picks and turn them into valuable assets? Why couldn't Therrien or Julien or DD do it? Why is it that our minor leagues are suddenly churning out late picks that are turning into good prospects?

Development matters - a lot.

 

[Vachon23]

Injuries are what really killed him. He was never the same after the hit with Kopitar. And Julien did him no favours either.

We absolutely were going to get a solid top six player and he proved it time and again under Therrien when given a chance. In the 15-16 season he was easily our best scorer and we buried him on the third line. Then our idiot coach puts him on the first in like March and he goes top ten in the league the rest of the way.

Just mind-blowingly stupid.

How can we know this? We gave him the worst coach in the league. A coach who's sole instruction was to 'grind!!!!'

Do you seriously think Slaf would be where he is today if Therrien was his coach? He'd still be on the 3rd or 4th line.

Many things can be true at the same time.

-Therrien absolutely f***ed up Galchenyuk. He was misused and it prevented him from establishing himself as a solid top six player - which is at minimum what he should've been.

-Galchenyuk had injury issues that derailed what should've been a good career. This more than anything is probably what really killed him.

-Galchenyuk had a meddling father and was probably rebelious against his coach who liked to employ bullying tactics.

Bottom line in terms of where Chuck is now and his own issues - he's an adult and he's responsible for them. He can't blame anyone but himself.

However... that doesn't mean we couldn't have helped him. It doesn't mean we didn't put him in the absolutely worst possible environment with a stupid, domineering coach. We didn't give him any real guidance and didn't provide any kind of leadership for him. These are 18 year old kids who aren't fully cooked and we put them in front of a moron who doesn't understand hockey and likes to blow cigarette smoke into player's faces.

How many players/prospects left the game because of the shitty environments we provided? Terry Ryan and Louis Leblanc were both blue chip NHL players who never went anywhere and quit the game altogether because we mismanaged them. It was systemic for years and not surprising at all that we had so many players fall through the cracks.

If Larry Robinson is our coach Galchenyuk establishes himself as a top six guy for sure. No doubt about it. Injuries are the wildcard but at a minimum he'd have been a much, much better player. Secondly, none of us can know if he'd have been made into a better person. I suspect he would've with a leader like Robinson to take him under his wing. And while we can't know the answer to that question, we surely know that Therrien made things worse.

As I said for years here - you don't get to mismanage prosepects and then blame THEM for not producing. We produced great players before MB. We get MB and the only real player we develop is Gallagher. MB leaves and now all of a sudden Timmins' late picks start panning out again - exactly as I said they would.

How much more do people need to see? Why do you think we have Caufield sitting there with one goal over 41 games and then 48 over the next 82? Why is it that the new regime is able to take Timmins' late picks and turn them into valuable assets? Why couldn't Therrien or Julien or DD do it? Why is it that our minor leagues are suddenly churning out late picks that are turning into good prospects?

Development matters - a lot.

Did Larry Robinson was ever interested in a HC position ?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

We don’t know though if they tried to help him. I’m
not saying they handle him perfectly but for me the principle responsable it’s Galchenyuk himself.

"It's not management's fault"
"He has to earn it"
"He doesn't want it enough"
"The cream rises to the top"

Then we'd play David Desharnais on the first line...

I heard this nonsense over and over for a decade while our thoroughly incompetent management stunted players and produced next to zero from the draft.

The Montreal Canadiens were a textbook example of what not to do. A textbook example of bad development and bad coaching. There is absolutely no surprise that we couldn't produce a single impact player outside of Gallagher under that regime.

Beforehand? No worries. Price, Max, Subban and a slew of lower picks that were pretty good. MB shows up and the taps turn off. He goes away and suddenly - Caufield, Strubel, Guhle, Farrel, Kidney (I won't include Mailloux because we shouldn't have even drafted him) Roy, Trudeau are looking like strong picks from Timmins.

It is not coincidence. It's not luck. It's not fluke... It's exactly what I predicted would happen.

Did Larry Robinson was ever interested in a HC position ?

He was never given the opportunity. MB hired Therrien and Robinson called to see if he could be the assistant.

MB never returned his call.

I agree with all this, but at the end of the day you’re the author of your own story. He could have seek for help, he could have made things different and look at himself in the mirror.

But... how many guys failed? How many guys left the game altogether under that regime? How does a blue chip guy like Leblanc just end up quitting hockey? He wrote an essay on his time with the organization. Go read it it. It's an indictment on the way we ran things and pretty heartbreaking.

Look at the difference between then and now. Look at the skills coaching we have. Look at how skilled players are being given a chance to succeed. Look at Slaf's work with Dr Shot. I mean, we didn't have anything like that at all before.

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

Therrien sucked ass, but I would argue a lot of Galchenyuk's downfall in his career came after Julien was hired.

Galchenyuk was actually starting to live up to potential before Therrien was fired with 32 goals and 58 points in his last 70 games with Therrien while playing centre.

When Julien took over he put Galchenyuk back on the wing and then had the brilliant idea of playing Galchenyuk on the wing with Steve Ott and Martinsen in the playoffs despite our team needing offence. Even in a do or die game Julien preferred to put Brian ****ing Flynn at centre in our top six over Galchenyuk.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Therrien sucked ass, but I would argue a lot of Galchenyuk's downfall in his career came after Julien was hired.

Galchenyuk was actually starting to live up to potential before Therrien was fired with 32 goals and 58 points in his last 70 games with Therrien while playing centre.

When Julien took over he put Galchenyuk back on the wing and then had the brilliant idea of playing Galchenyuk on the wing with Steve Ott and Martinsen in the playoffs despite our team needing offence. Even in a do or die game Julien preferred to put Brian ****ing Flynn at centre in our top six over Galchenyuk.

Julien sucked as well.

Chuck started out great in 16-17 and was among the top scorers in the league again. Then around game 15 or 16 he collided with Kopitar and was out for a while. Julien never really put him back at center again. Then he had some more injuries... he was never the same again.

 

[Vachon23]

He was never given the opportunity. MB hired Therrien and Robinson called to see if he could be the assistant.

MB never returned his call.

He showed interest for the AC job but not sure he wanted the HC job

 

[Tyson]

Did Larry Robinson was ever interested in a HC position ?

There were many rumors of his dad interfering in his development. Not sure how true but it was reported quite often.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

He showed interest for the AC job but not sure he wanted the HC job

He was never offered the HC job. MB was hired and immediately hired Therrien. It was very clear what kind of culture he wanted here.

Robinson called afterwards to see if he could take an assistant role. Again, he was ignored.

Bergevin was the worst GM at the worst time for us. We had assembled a good young group of players (including Galchenyuk) and we should've come out of that era with a cup. And even if you don't think Galchenyuk was someone you wanted to build with - he had massive trade value. We certainly could've gotten our number one center by leveraging him.