Proposal: Trades & Tirades Thread no. 69

[sampollock]

Very fair. But I have a question for you too. How patient are you with how long it takes them? Like what if we draft 10-15 next year but then 1-5 the year after? Are you willing to look at the long game and vision and ignore the year/year rollercoaster? Like I look at the Sens and I see the holes they got and wonder how long it takes them to find that center and goaltender they need?

I think Gorton/Hughes are smart. They have not done the typical past statement of... "this will be a 5 year rebuild". We are in a fluid situation IMO where we might still make trades but we might also try to sign Letang. This is not a 100% obsessed rebuild/tank. They will consider moves 1/1 but the long term vision is to maintain high draft power and better drafting/development. Moves made around that could be distractions to some fans.

I would be happy with the long game, but.. I hope they drafting gets way better then it was
I would love to see some young guns come up from the farm, instead of no names
young very good prospects is what I am hoping for

 

[Habs Halifax]

I would be happy with the long game, but.. I hope they drafting gets way better then it was
I would love to see some young guns come up from the farm, instead of no names
young very good prospects is what I am hoping for

I think the drafting from 17+ is good. We will see how that turns out and then what we do in the next few drafts to reinforce it. It will be interesting to look back in 5 years and see where the best parts come from. Are they from trades, 17-21 (Bergevin/Timmins era) or 22+ drafts. If Hughes/Gorton do a good job and we have a contender, I suspect it's parts coming from many different areas.

However, drafting and development needs to be better. We all agree there. That's the most important part

 

[BLONG7]

I would be happy with the long game, but.. I hope they drafting gets way better then it was
I would love to see some young guns come up from the farm, instead of no names
young very good prospects is what I am hoping for

There are plenty of teams who have kids come up, and bam, these kids can play in the league.....we have not seen this as much outside of Caufield.....would be nice to have a little more luck than one or two guys every 10 years or so!! lol

 

[Kairi Zaide]

Heineman was Calgary 7th or 8th best prospect.

The 1st will be very late.

I would have waited the deadline to see if a team pannic and overpay.
To me the timing is worst than the deal itself.


I wouldnt have pulled the trigger on that deal.


Comparable deal is the Zucker trade for a 1st and Addison.

Addison was a better prospect than Heineman and Toffoli is producing more than Zucker and has a better contract.

Zucker was actually producing more than Toffoli was this season at the time of the trade. And that's by including Toffoli's empty net production (not a bad thing, but also far less valuable in that it's more replaceable). Toffoli's contract is better for a team competing on a short 2-years window, though; that I agree.

That said, at the time, Zucker's contract was perfectly in line with the type of player he was - it just didn't age "well" (though he's still valuable).

 

[Habs Halifax]

There are plenty of teams who have kids come up, and bam, these kids can play in the league.....we have not seen this as much outside of Caufield.....would be nice to have a little more luck than one or two guys every 10 years or so!! lol

I think we have one of the deepest grade B/B+ prospect pools currently. If Hughes/Gorton can find one or two stars and one or two Grade A prospects, I like the potential on how all that would come together in a few years once they are all 22+

Hitting on a top line forward or top pairing D in this next draft would be a good start

 

[sampollock]

I think the drafting from 17+ is good. We will see how that turns out and then what we do in the next few drafts to reinforce it. It will be interesting to look back in 5 years and see where the best parts come from. Are they from trades, 17-21 (Bergevin/Timmins era) or 22+ drafts. If Hughes/Gorton do a good job and we have a contender, I suspect it's parts coming from many different areas.

However, drafting and development needs to be better. We all agree there. That's the most important part

biggest thing bottom line , we all want a better future in young talent. MB did not provide that, example JD trade

 

[Habs Halifax]

biggest thing bottom line , we all want a better future in young talent. MB did not provide that, example JD trade

I have my reasons on where MB did well and where he didn't but I'm going to put that in the past.

Draft and develop better. Maintain our high draft power and we come out of this a much better team

 

[Prairie Habs]

Not really. When you are a legit playoff team or contender, you have specific needs. If you are not focused on those specific needs and will take Klingberg over Chiarot cause he may or may not be cheaper or he can provide more offense, you are not a competent manager.

Look at Yzerman and then the moves Brisebois made after he left? Trades valuable futures for specific needs in Coleman and Savard. He knew what he was doing and I wonder if Yzerman would have made those same moves? Maybe but Brisebois is the one who targeted specific needs that turned into cups where Yzerman had a team that was a legit contender (offensive powerhouse like the Avs today) but lost in the 1st round to teams like the Blue Jackets.

How long will take Sakic to realize this? I see the Avs in the same situation as Tampa was a few years ago before their cups.

It's also how you galaxy brain yourself into paying a 1st for foligno due to need rather than a 2nd for hall.

 

[Runner77]

no I understand the wait, then why not wait with TT, is what I am saying.. why the rush with him is all

Don’t think it was a rush as much as it was Calgary meeting his price. That’s what it looked like to me but I could be wrong.

 

[Colezuki]

Don’t think it was a rush as much as it was Calgary meeting his price. That’s what it looked like to me but I could be wrong.

Literally, multiple insiders have said that by jumping the gun he may have done better than if he had waited given the glut of players available. Additionally, all of you saying we should wait till next year, what happens if he's injured next year or he starts to decline? Which is likely over the life of his contract.

Say it with me, he didn't fit the vision of the team, the price was met, he was traded.

 

[danyhabsfan]

Zucker was actually producing more than Toffoli was this season at the time of the trade. And that's by including Toffoli's empty net production (not a bad thing, but also far less valuable in that it's more replaceable). Toffoli's contract is better for a team competing on a short 2-years window, though; that I agree.

That said, at the time, Zucker's contract was perfectly in line with the type of player he was - it just didn't age "well" (though he's still valuable).

Toffoli (37 goals and 70 pts in 89 games)

Zucker (35 goals and 71 pts in 126 games)

Similar production when they were traded and way better production the season before for Toffoli (and 4.25M/year vs 5.5M/year)

 

[26Mats]

Toffoli (37 goals and 70 pts in 89 games)
View attachment 513629

Zucker (35 goals and 71 pts in 126 games)
View attachment 513630

Similar production when they were traded and way better production the season before for Toffoli (and 4.25M/year vs 5.5M/year)

Toffoli's 28 goals in 52 games and playoff performances before he was playing injured in the playoffs set him apart. And everyone around the league knows the C as Canadiens under Ducharme were impotent offensively and defensively, and so those numbers can be taken in that context.

 

[Vachon23]

Zucker was 28 yrs old when he was traded to, doesn't make a lot of difference but it's still 2 yrs younger and Heineman was the prospect that Hughes/Gorton absolutely wanted in the deal, so it's not like if he was a throw in.

 

[Runner77]

Literally, multiple insiders have said that by jumping the gun he may have done better than if he had waited given the glut of players available. Additionally, all of you saying we should wait till next year, what happens if he's injured next year or he starts to decline? Which is likely over the life of his contract.

Say it with me, he didn't fit the vision of the team, the price was met, he was traded.

Because the player has both term and is signed to a cheap deal, there is built in value to the Flames — they could probably flip him next TDL and recoup what they paid the Habs. They might even recoup most of what they paid by dealing him when his contract expires two seasons from now.

Maybe that’s the part that looks like it didn’t get fully compensated — Calgary can conceivably play Toffoli for free for two years and still have a shot at recouping what they paid the Habs. That to me is the most palatable argument for having asked more of a return but that’s just me as an outsider looking in.

There were probably other variables that motivated the deal that I’m not seeing — getting that first rounder must have been a tough pursuit as no other team has traded one since.

 

[Habs Halifax]

It's also how you galaxy brain yourself into paying a 1st for foligno due to need rather than a 2nd for hall.

Folingo was the type they needed but his skating was not good enough to keep up to their pace of play. Plus I think he was playing injured. Hall was not going to turn the needle for their team needs. They did not not need offense. They needed warriors that could skate. Thornton and Folingo were past their primes. They should have tried to sign Perry. Skating not so good but his IQ is still very high and provides lots of value along the walls and in front of the net.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

Literally, multiple insiders have said that by jumping the gun he may have done better than if he had waited given the glut of players available. Additionally, all of you saying we should wait till next year, what happens if he's injured next year or he starts to decline? Which is likely over the life of his contract.

Say it with me, he didn't fit the vision of the team, the price was met, he was traded.

Thank you!
So many people do not understand that very few teams can take on other contracts. Many teams have been burned by asking way too much and then realizing that other teams have moved on and they cannot even get close to what they were offered. IMO Calgary could have easily look at other option than Toffoli and found another forward for that same price. I highly doubt other teams would have offered the habs more as they claim to.

Anyway I do not get this thinking that by being more patient you might squeeze in a 2nd or 3rd while don't undertsand that you could have little to no offer left by asking too much.

 

[Habs Icing]

Here's something to calm you before the next trade. Chiarot will not get you a top 10 pick, Lehkonen will not get you Lafreniere or Kappo, Kulak will not get you a 1st. Just want to cushion the blow if/when these guys are traded on what you can expect NOT to get for them.

I hope you're not the type of dad who will tell his six-year-old there's no Santa just so you can cushion his disappointment with life when he's older.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Maybe the NHL has just been waiting for the Aaron Rodgers situation to be finalized lol

 

[Sterling Archer]

I hope you're not the type of dad who will tell his six-year-old there's no Santa just so you can cushion his disappointment with life when he's older.

6 year old children aren’t 40 year old men. I have no trouble crushing Mens dreams lol.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Who is player 1 and who is player 2? We are board so lets play a guessing game. Stats from 19/20 to today

Player 1:
* 22:35 min/game
* 2:15 min/game on the PK
* 1:12 min/game on the PP
* 46-51% Corsi for with close to 50/50% Defensive and Offensive zone starts
* 49 pts with 9 goals in 130 games
* 1.9 hits/60
* 3.35 blocks/60
* 2.2 giveaways/60
* 1.10 takeaways/60

Player 2:
* 22:53 min/game
* 3:01 min/game on the PK
* 0:33 min/game on the PP
* 42-49% Corsi for with 57-66% Defensive and Offensive zone starts
* 44 pts with 17 goals in 161 games
* 5.45 hits/60
* 4.41 blocks/60
* 3.09 giveaways/60
* 0.70 takeaways/60

 

[calder candidate]

OK - so in the same vane what is the freak out over 10 spots 1st for 1st - DeBrusk and Vaak are a nice return.

This as to be of the worst take...
Considering 10th spot was the difference between Marner and Debrusk moving down 10th spot of a mid 6 FW and fringe / bottom pair Dman is pretty crazy and even worst we finish top 3 than what? They get our 2023 1st unprotected, imaging Boston picking Bedard #1 OA with our pick because we trade for Debrusk no only is short sighted, it would immediately become the worst trade in NHL history...
Debrusk is good but he is a good middle 6 and he already requested a trade and Vaak isn't anything speacial, no way we should include a 1st round pick in a trade for these player...

 

[dinodebino]

Haaa the Bergevin disease has not left this forum yet. Analyzing trades as single events, instant gratification, instead of looking at the macro. I guess that’s what 10 years of reactionary trades do to a fan base.

 

[blarneylad]

Because the player has both term and is signed to a cheap deal, there is built in value to the Flames — they could probably flip him next TDL and recoup what they paid the Habs. They might even recoup most of what they paid by dealing him when his contract expires two seasons from now.

Maybe that’s the part that looks like it didn’t get fully compensated — Calgary can conceivably play Toffoli for free for two years and still have a shot at recouping what they paid the Habs. That to me is the most palatable argument for having asked more of a return but that’s just me as an outsider looking in.

There were probably other variables that motivated the deal that I’m not seeing — getting that first rounder must have been a tough pursuit as no other team has traded one since.

The timing of the assets matters too.

Toffoli scoring goals is great, but Montreal is out of the playoffs this year. And won't be contending for the Cup in the next 2 years.

The 1st will be ready sooner to join the contention window. Whereas Flames want to go for it, they are pushing their "potential 1st" if they flip Toff later down the road.

Montreal got an asset that will be ready for NHL action sooner by doing it. Flames pushed their asset hypothetically into the future for instant gratification.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

6 year old children aren’t 40 year old men. I have no trouble crushing Mens dreams lol.

Sterling Archer crusher of dreams

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Haaa the Bergevin disease has not left this forum yet. Analyzing trades as single events, instant gratification, instead of looking at the macro. I guess that’s what 10 years of reactionary trades do to a fan base.

I mean when you win all your trades ....