Top 5 Goal Scorers all Time

[Ignite111]

not aware that Bossy played in the highest scoring era ever and retired in his prime?

So if he didn’t “retire in his prime” due to injuries, and played til he was 36 or 1200+ games like most of the others he would finish with well over 800 goals. GPG would drop but what’s your argument then?

Also are you questioning Gretzsky’s goal totals as well? 92 and 87 goal seasons in 82 and 84?

 

[bobholly39]

Gretzky/Lemieux/Ovechkin/Bobby Hull are in tier 1 in some order. My rank changes if we're talking "best" vs "greatest". Best is Lemieux - greatest is probably Ovechkin #1, Gretzky #2.

Richard and Howe make up tier 2. Interchangeable, but I prefer Richard, so I voted him as my 5th, and would have Howe at #6.

Tier 3 and 7th place is highest rank it makes logical sense to slot Bossy. And i do rank him 7th. Probably go Esposito 8, Brett Hull 9 and Bure 10.

And I expect Matthews to break into that top 10 one day. Question is how high. At this point I expect the lowest he will finish career wise is 10th (he will pass Bure). I could see him passing Bossy all-time - not sure about Howe/Richard though. And tier 1 - I guess nothing is impossible, but that's an extremely high bar, and likely unattainable.

 

[wetcoast]

It's the first 4 without any argument.

The only way that part is controversial is if you get into the semantics of what "goal scorer" means. Like if you mean "pure goal scorer who doesn't do nearly as much in other phases of the game as he does when he's finishing a scoring rush" you might take off Gretzky and add someone else.

After that, I'd say it's between Richard, Howe, and Bossy. Richard usually gets the nod for his exploits in a weakened 1940s league, or Bossy for what he did in a scoring-inflated environment. I'd simply suggest that Howe deserves another look, given his run of goalscoring titles over more than a decade in a very consolidated, competitive, defense-first league.

I took Gretzky out of the mix for a particular reason in that his goal scoring didn't age well but I have zero problem with him in my top 5 really.

Without him in I took the next 3 guys Ovi, Mario and Bobby Hull then took Bure as a personal favorite and also Bossy as he was the best goalscorer in my formative NHL viewing years and his release gets under rated.

That being said is any top 5 goal scoring list right without Maurice Richard?

 

[amnesiac]

So if he didn’t “retire in his prime” due to injuries, and played til he was 36 or 1200+ games like most of the others he would finish with well over 800 goals. GPG would drop but what’s your argument then?

Also are you questioning Gretzsky’s goal totals as well? 92 and 87 goal seasons in 82 and 84?

possibly... maybe he falls off a cliff in his latter years like Trottier, or maybe gives up scoring in the early-mid 90s like Greztky and his GPG avg falls. Same goes for Bure too. But they didnt play 1200+ games. Thats the point.

Whatever the case, you can see the adjusted GPG ranking I posted. You noticed theres 5-6 in the top 10 or so who havent played 1000+ games. Those who played 1200+ all dipped in adj GPG, except Ovie of course. Players like Brett Hull, has an adjusted 0.58 GPG and 1269GP, thats pretty damn good. Bossy may have finished something like that, but realistically hes borderline top 5, around Howe, Richard, Br.Hull. He just played at the right time.

 

[Zuluss]

Here are the numbers of goal-scoring titles, as well as top3, top5, top10 finishes:

Ovechkin: 9*1st, 11*top3, 14*top5, 14*top10

Howe: 5*1st, 12*top3, 14*top5, 19*top10

Hull: 7*1st, 10*top3, 12*top5, 13*top10

Richard: 5*1st, 9*top3, 13*top5, 14*top10

Gretzky: 5*1st, 5*top3, 8*top5, 9*top10

Lemieux: 3*1st, 6*top3, 6*top5, 9*top10

Esposito: 6*1st, 7*top3, 8*top5, 9*top10

Bossy: 2*1st, 7*top3, 8*top5, 9*top10

Brett Hull: 3*1st, 4*top3, 4*top5, 8*top10

Pavel Bure: 3*1st, 4*top3, 5*top5, 5*top10

Ovechkin, Howe, Bobby Hull, and Richard clearly make the top tier.
Gretzky, Lemieux, and Esposito are the next tier.

Insisting on top5 rather than top7 asks one to make the hard choice between Gretzky, Lemieux, and Esposito. Going by talent/ability, it is Lemieux, going by accomplishments, it is Gretzky.

 

[Video Nasty]

So if he didn’t “retire in his prime” due to injuries, and played til he was 36 or 1200+ games like most of the others he would finish with well over 800 goals. GPG would drop but what’s your argument then?

Also are you questioning Gretzsky’s goal totals as well? 92 and 87 goal seasons in 82 and 84?

You nailed it on the head. People love playing the what if game, but only for certain players. Bossy is one of those players that just doesn’t seem to get the love from the fantasy obsessed crowd for whatever reason.

Playing the what if game, even if he fell off a cliff, he sails to 800 goals.

Falling off a cliff for a .762 GPG through 752 games could be something like .415 GPG for another 550 games (a 45.5% reduction in scoring), which gives him a final tally of 801 goals in 1,302 games.

They also scream about how literally the only reason Bossy scored any goals to begin with is because he played in the 80s. Particularly because of “adjusted” statistics. Now obviously a higher scoring league environment leads to more everything related to offense.

But like so many of the very best, it didn’t really seem to matter what the league average was, the elite got theirs regardless. For example, in 1977-1978, in a league scoring environment that is not that much higher than today (3.30 vs 3.16), he notched 53 goals in 73 games as a rookie. He’s probably flirting with 60 goals as a rookie in an 82 game modern season.

In 1980-1981, he had 68 goals in 79 games in when scoring was 3.84 GPG. Surely, when it was lower in 1978-1979 (3.50), he had to have had many less goals? No, he had 69 goals in 80 games.

Scoring all those goals and some forget how the Islanders were a defense first focused team. 17 goals in 3 consecutive Cup winning runs while scoring the game winner 11 times out of 45 victories and all some can do is write him off because he “played in a high scoring era”.

 

[Mrb1p]

Ovechkin, Lemieux and Gretzky are shoe in.

Ranked by goal scoring finishes.

It checks out, Bobby and Maurice are the two prototypical goalscorer, generational goalscorers.

Funny that Geoffrion, Stamkos, Lafleur and others don't make it but... Neely and Bure do ?

Bobby Hull: 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-3-4-4
Maurice Richard: 1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2-5-5


Gordie Howe: 1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2-2-3-3-4-5-5
Phil Esposito: 1-1-1-1-1-2-2
Charlie Conacher 1-1-1-1-1
Bernard Geoffrion 1-1-1-2-4-4-4-5
Brett Hull: 1-1-1-4
Steven Stamkos: 1-1-2-3-3-3
Mike Bossy: 1-2-2-2-3-3-3-4-5
Guy Lafleur: 1-2-2-3-3
Roy Conacher 1-1-1-2-3-4-5
Jean Beliveau 1-1-2-3-3-4-4-5-5
Auston Matthews: 1-1-2-4-5
Jarri Kurri 1-1-2-4
Teemu Selanne 1-1-3-3-4
Sidney Crosby: 1-1-2
Pavel Bure 1-2-2-3
Jarome Iginla 1-2-3-4
Peter Bondra 1-2-2
Jaromir Jagr1-2-3-3-4-5
Cam Neely 1-2-5-5

 

[Mrb1p]

It's the first 4 without any argument.

The only way that part is controversial is if you get into the semantics of what "goal scorer" means. Like if you mean "pure goal scorer who doesn't do nearly as much in other phases of the game as he does when he's finishing a scoring rush" you might take off Gretzky and add someone else.

After that, I'd say it's between Richard, Howe, and Bossy. Richard usually gets the nod for his exploits in a weakened 1940s league, or Bossy for what he did in a scoring-inflated environment. I'd simply suggest that Howe deserves another look, given his run of goalscoring titles over more than a decade in a very consolidated, competitive, defense-first league.

Richard started 4 years earlier than Howe and they finished:

Richard: 1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2-5
Howe: 1-1-1-2-2-2-2-3-5

In their career overlap, Richard had one more top GPG finish and one more 2nd GPG finish. Howe added a 3rd.

Id say that you could probably delete that "WeAKeNEd" league. Richard was 1-5-7 before Howe entered the league.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Richard started 4 years earlier than Howe and they finished:

Richard: 1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2-5
Howe: 1-1-1-2-2-2-2-3-5

In their career overlap, Richard had one more top GPG finish and one more 2nd GPG finish. Howe added a 3rd.

Id say that you could probably delete that "WeAKeNEd" league. Richard was 1-5-7 before Howe entered the league.

The NHL was not a particularly strong league from 1940 up until about 1950. That accounts for 3 of Richard’s 5 goalscoring titles. The most famous of those titles, 1945, came in the single most non-competitive season in league history.

That doesn’t mean Richard wouldn’t have won goalscoring titles in a fully competitive environment. But he damned sure wasn’t scoring 50 in 50, or 45 in 60. Those are marks of a war-weakened league, and there’s no doubt that his reputation is inflated by the scale of those numbers, even to this day.

Howe’s goalscoring titles are straightforward. The NHL was mature and stable during the 50s and 60s, flush with talent in the post-war generation. Howe’s triple-consecutive titles during that decade are as solid as it comes — and they were won by margins that resemble what Richard was doing in the 1940s. Winning the title 49-32 in 1953 is more impressive than winning it 45-30 in 1947.

And, in much the same manner as Gretzky, Howe was also winning assist titles at the same time. It’s not like he was a volume shooter. He likely could have scored a few more goals if he settled for Richard’s level of total point production.

This isn’t meant to shit on Richard. I bothered to mention him above because he’s a conventional choice in this debate. But there is a reality to the NHL in the 1940s which also applies to guys like Bill Durnan and Ebbie Goodfellow. Statistical marks, and even postseason awards from that era can’t be taken at face value, knowing what we know about the quality of competition.

(By the way, I should note that you’ve cleverly framed “1-5-7 before Howe entered the league”, by balancing Howe’s rookie season against Richard’s second goalscoring title.)

 

[ole ole]

I only did 4, Ovechkin, Gretzky, Lemieux, Bossy.

I feel those are the clear cut 1-4.

Ya and i add B.Hull to that group.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Gretzky
Ovechkin
Lemieux
Bobby Hull
Howe
Richard

Are a very clear top 6

OV, Gretzky, Lemieux and Bobby Hull are 100% locks. Tough between Howe and Richard but went with Howe.

Expecting Bossy to be overrated as usual by people who stare at his GPG while applying zero context.

Well, simply looking at GPG for a shortened career and not considering the era sure is cheap, but I remember several interesting and surprisingly compelling arguments in Bossy’s favor were made in this great thread by @overpass.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Well, simply looking at GPG for a shortened career and not considering the era sure is cheap, but I remember several interesting and surprisingly compelling arguments in Bossy’s favor were made in this great thread by @overpass.

I've poured through the thread numerous times.

Even if the so called smoking gun of season by season all SH/ENG/weak team goals removed, Gretzky still clearly peaked higher than Bossy.

I also just fundamentally disagree with removing SHG. Like Gretzky should be diminished because he hurt other teams on the PK while Bossy did not.

The game situation too also sits weird with me. Gretzky got goals in blowouts. Because his playmaking turned them into blowouts.

Looking at the entire top 7, Bossy regularly played with by far the best playmaker in Trottier at their peaks.

Bossy's snappy stats and sexy highlights have stuck the test of time. But contemporaries had him the clear third best Islander in the late 70s early 80s.

Gretzky hit 92 goals being the best goal scorer on his team AND being the best playmaker of all time.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ovechkin, Lemieux and Gretzky are shoe in.

Ovechkin and Gretzky, sure. No idea why Lemieux deserves that status.

Lemieux was able to almost equal Ovechkin's adjusted GPG for far fewer games and far less value (Ovechkin has 50% more adjusted goals than Lemieux, and counting).

Lemieux led the NHL in GPG 6 times. Ovechkin did it 9 times (and that's actually generous to Lemieux by counting a half season).

And those are the best data points for Lemieux.

Lemieux has massive weaknesses as a goal scorer:

Lemieux has neither the best peak adjusted season of his era (Brett Hull) or the best raw total of his era (Gretzky). Ovechkin has both. And yet peak is supposed to be his strength?!?

Despite playing in the highest scoring era, he's not even top 10 in raw goals.

In adjusted goals, he's a lowly 18th.

He led the NHL in goals only 3 times. (Ovechkin 9, Gretzky 5, Hull 7).

Lemieux barely played after age 31 which artificially inflates his per-game stats, and they're still not better than Ovechkin's.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

I've poured through the thread numerous times.

Even if the so called smoking gun of season by season all SH/ENG/weak team goals removed, Gretzky still clearly peaked higher than Bossy.

I also just fundamentally disagree with removing SHG. Like Gretzky should be diminished because he hurt other teams on the PK while Bossy did not.

The game situation too also sits weird with me. Gretzky got goals in blowouts. Because his playmaking turned them into blowouts.

Looking at the entire top 7, Bossy regularly played with by far the best playmaker in Trottier at their peaks.

Bossy's snappy stats and sexy highlights have stuck the test of time. But contemporaries had him the clear third best Islander in the late 70s early 80s.

Gretzky hit 92 goals being the best goal scorer on his team AND being the best playmaker of all time.

I wasn’t utterly convinced Bossy was a better goal scorer than Gretzky, and you post some solid points as to why, but I was surprised that looking at goal scoring in the most common situations, against the best teams and in the playoffs etc, Bossy and Gretzky looked remarkably close. Of course, Gretzky probably would have been less of a threat had he quit setting others up to score, and no one’s argued Bossy being in Gretzky’s ballpark as far as overall scoring threats go, but the arguments made were compelling and the discussions a lot of fun to follow since I’d previously assumed the Bossy > Gretzky argument for “pure goal scoring” or whatnot would end up being about aesthetics.

At any rate, even if you don’t fancy Bossy over Gretzky as a goal scorer, I wonder if the case for him in the top five doesn’t remain.

 

[Mrb1p]

Ovechkin and Gretzky, sure. No idea why Lemieux deserves that status.

Lemieux was able to almost equal Ovechkin's adjusted GPG for far fewer games and far less value (Ovechkin has 50% more adjusted goals than Lemieux, and counting).

Lemieux led the NHL in GPG 6 times. Ovechkin did it 9 times (and that's actually generous to Lemieux by counting a half season).

And those are the best data points for Lemieux.

Lemieux has massive weaknesses as a goal scorer:

Lemieux has neither the best peak adjusted season of his era (Brett Hull) or the best raw total of his era (Gretzky). Ovechkin has both. And yet peak is supposed to be his strength?!?

Despite playing in the highest scoring era, he's not even top 10 in raw goals.

In adjusted goals, he's a lowly 18th.

He led the NHL in goals only 3 times. (Ovechkin 9, Gretzky 5, Hull 7).

Lemieux barely played after age 31 which artificially inflates his per-game stats, and they're still not better than Ovechkin's.

Lemieux lead the league in GPG 6 times, Gretzky did it 3 times.

Lemieux has more first finish in GPG than Gretzky has top 5s.

This with him missing a lot of time to injury, but never actually slowing down. And Lemieux did it over more than a decade, meanwhile Gretzkys goalscoring is condensed in 6 years.

Gretzky:
1-1-1-2-2-5

Lemieux
1-1-1-1-1-1-2-3-4

 

[FrozenJagrt]

Picked Gretzky, Lemieux, Ovechkin, Bobby Hull, and Esposito. Like many, the first four on this poll are locks to me and #5 is just personal preference. I’d normally go for Bossy, but I’m kind of tired of this site ignoring Espo.

That's my list and I didn't have to think too hard about it.

I actually think Bossy gets overrated. There are some that believe he's the best goal scorer ever, and I don't know how they can say that when he and Gretzky played at the same time and Gretzky came out ahead more often than not.

 

[Xspyrit]

not aware that Bossy played in the highest scoring era ever and retired in his prime?

View attachment 622542

I just posted this but in the wrong thread lol

I was also saying this :

This was always a debate but yes age when the player stopped playing plays a factor. For example, Mike Bossy unfortunately had to stop at 30 y/o so he didn't had to experience natural decline aging into his 40's like many other all-time greats. Same with Bure, 2 great careers cut short so I unfortunately have to rule them out but they were insane goal scoring talents. Lemieux retired at 40 y/o but didn't play that much after 31 y/o so his numbers are influenced by this factor as well but his 0.67 GPG gives him a good lead over some down the list. Stamkos turns 33 y/o soon so it depends how the rest of his career plays out. Auston Matthews is obviously off to an incredible start and could end up in that top-5. Kovalchuk can't be considered as he only played 156 games in the NHL after 29 y/o. Crosby career is not over and his GPG will probably decline in the next few years

Ovechkin is the best goal scorer of all-time, it's not even a debate.

Lemieux has to be there

Maurice Richard has to be voted in the top-5 too.

Bobby and Brett Hull played into their 40's and were among the best scorers of all-time

Howe played a NHL season at 51 y/o and went to the WHA at 43. He's Top-5 as well.

Esposito should also be considered


I am voting Ovechkin, Maurice Richard, Mario Lemieux, Bobby Hull and Gordie Howe

Edit : why is Cam Neely an option?

 

[jigglysquishy]

I think this thread shows just how underrated Hull gets as a goal scorer.

Goal finishes of
1-1-1-1-1-1-1-2-2-3-4-5-6

7x leading in goals
10x top 3 in goals
12x top 5 in goals

When Ovechkin took the crown of greatest goal scorer in hockey history, he took it from Bobby Hull.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Lemieux lead the league in GPG 6 times, Gretzky did it 3 times.

Lemieux has more first finish in GPG than Gretzky has top 5s.

This with him missing a lot of time to injury, but never actually slowing down. And Lemieux did it over more than a decade, meanwhile Gretzkys goalscoring is condensed in 6 years.

Gretzky:
1-1-1-2-2-5

Lemieux
1-1-1-1-1-1-2-3-4

Don't even engage that poster. The Pens irreparably hurt that man throughout his life.

 

[blundluntman]

I just posted this but in the wrong thread lol

I was also saying this :

This was always a debate but yes age when the player stopped playing plays a factor. For example, Mike Bossy unfortunately had to stop at 30 y/o so he didn't had to experience natural decline aging into his 40's like many other all-time greats. Same with Bure, 2 great careers cut short so I unfortunately have to rule them out but they were insane goal scoring talents. Lemieux retired at 40 y/o but didn't play that much after 31 y/o so his numbers are influenced by this factor as well but his 0.67 GPG gives him a good lead over some down the list. Stamkos turns 33 y/o soon so it depends how the rest of his career plays out. Auston Matthews is obviously off to an incredible start and could end up in that top-5. Kovalchuk can't be considered as he only played 156 games in the NHL after 29 y/o. Crosby career is not over and his GPG will probably decline in the next few years

Ovechkin is the best goal scorer of all-time, it's not even a debate.

Lemieux has to be there

Maurice Richard has to be voted in the top-5 too.

Bobby and Brett Hull played into their 40's and were among the best scorers of all-time

Howe played a NHL season at 51 y/o and went to the WHA at 43. He's Top-5 as well.

Esposito should also be considered


I am voting Ovechkin, Maurice Richard, Mario Lemieux, Bobby Hull and Gordie Howe

Edit : why is Cam Neely an option?

My biases crept in tbh. He was pretty prolific in his prime but he does stick out in retrospect. Gonna add some other names to balance it out though.

 

[SwedishFire]

Brett Hulls peak was top 3 all time, same with Bure. But Selänne scored a lot until the end. I put him as a better goalscorer all over.

Lemieux (higher shooting %)
Ovie
Gretz
Bossy (keep scoring 60s)
Selänne

Bure
Brett Hull
Esposito
Bobby Hull
M Richard
Howe
Jagr

 

[Randyne]

Lemieux lead the league in GPG 6 times, Gretzky did it 3 times.

Lemieux has more first finish in GPG than Gretzky has top 5s.

Because Gretzky played 99% games in 86-87 season. In first 63 games he had exact amount of goals as Lemieux had in this season with 63 games.
In 84-85 season Gretzky would also be #1 if he played only 43 games as Lemieux in 00-01 season.

Stop giving advantage who didn't play seasons.
All props should go to players who actually played games.
That's why Gretzky, Howe and obviously Ovechkin are untouchable.

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

If you had to pick a top 5 out of these players, who do you choose?

Edit: Added some other names based on suggestions from the thread so feel free to edit your votes if needed.

Hull, 99, 66, 8, 22.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Gretzky loses a 4th "goals per game" title because his playmaking brilliance helped propel Jari Kurri to the league lead in that category in 1985. (I like Kurri, and a lot of people unfairly dismiss him as a product of Gretzky - but at the same time, there's no way he'd score 0.97 GPG without #99). So Gretzky "loses" another season leading the league in GPG, because he was such a skilled playmaker.

If only Gretzky passed the puck less, he would've been able to claim a 4th GPG title in an internet argument 40 years later!

 

[FrankSidebottom]

Ovechkin, Lemieux, Bobby Hull, Esposito and a coin flip for Bossy/Gretzky.
What’s the point of adding so many options? Neely and everyone after Bure shouldn’t be there lol. I’d argue Bure and Selanne shouldn’t be either. Great goalscorers, but not top 5 all time great.