Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 5

[wetcoast]

First generation + of the NHL. So old it seems new.

I'm sure viewers of the Russian Green unit would have a difficult time seeing the similarities between them and say Nighbor's teams playing.

 

[MXD]

I hope that you will be making the same type of case for Larinov when he comes up.

That's not happening.

 

[Killion]

Canadiens hierarchy was coaching was defined by proximity to the Forum. When Ruel was promoted from Junior Canadiens HC to the Canadiens assistant with Toe Blake, Bowman replaced him as Junior Canadiens HC.

Details are internal but Bowman after
a few good seasons was named Omaha HC as far away from the Forum as the Canadiens system allowed.

Scotty returned to Montreal after his brief stint in Omaha and assumed duties as Eastern Canadian Scout, Coached the NDG Monarchs then a year later was re-assigned to HC of the Jr. Canadiens. Meanwhile in Omaha, 28yr old Bill McCreary was named "interim Player/Coach" and took the club all the way to the Leagues Championship & Title, one of the youngest Coaches in the game at that time. Continued Coaching down there until about 68 if memory serves. Omaha was Montreals top Farm Club at that time, coming at the expence of the Quebec Aces and Cleveland Barons of the AHL who were subjugated to "lower status" than the Omaha Knights & Coached respectively by former Canadiens players Boom Boom Geoffrion & Floyd Curry. So what "geographical considerations" or proximity to the Forum would usually (for call-up's a matter of convenience for sure) be considered abandoned by Montreal in sending their top prospects to Nebraska... club moved in 65 (?) to Houston and became the Apollo's. ... McCreary, still playing of course, joined the Blues & Scotty where he played for 4 more years, then took over the HC position when Bowman returned to Montreal.... Bill as you know also briefly Coaching the Canucks post St.Louis, GM of the Seals....

 

[VMBM]

I hope that you will be making the same type of case for Larinov when he comes up.

That'll be the day.

Larionov's Soviet and international resume pales in comparison with the other members of the Green Unit (minus maybe Kasatonov); I mean, we are talking about players on a different tier there. Many even think that Kasatonov was better. I'd be very surprised if his name popped up.

 

[MXD]

Can the missing ballot requiring correction have an incidence on the identity (as opposed to the order) of the players getting voted in?

If the only possible effect is on the order, we could start V6 straight away?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Scotty returned to Montreal after his brief stint in Omaha and assumed duties as Eastern Canadian Scout, Coached the NDG Monarchs then a year later was re-assigned to HC of the Jr. Canadiens. Meanwhile in Omaha, 28yr old Bill McCreary was named "interim Player/Coach" and took the club all the way to the Leagues Championship & Title, one of the youngest Coaches in the game at that time. Continued Coaching down there until about 68 if memory serves. Omaha was Montreals top Farm Club at that time, coming at the expence of the Quebec Aces and Cleveland Barons of the AHL who were subjugated to "lower status" than the Omaha Knights & Coached respectively by former Canadiens players Boom Boom Geoffrion & Floyd Curry. So what "geographical considerations" or proximity to the Forum would usually (for call-up's a matter of convenience for sure) be considered abandoned by Montreal in sending their top prospects to Nebraska... club moved in 65 (?) to Houston and became the Apollo's. ... McCreary, still playing of course, joined the Blues & Scotty where he played for 4 more years, then took over the HC position when Bowman returned to Montreal.... Bill as you know also briefly Coaching the Canucks post St.Louis, GM of the Seals....

In between Ruel and Bowman longtime MMJHL / QMJHL coach Yves Nadon, coached the Junior Canadiens:

Yves Nadon hockey statistics and profile at hockeydb.com

 

[Killion]

In between Ruel and Bowman longtime MMJHL / QMJHL coach Yves Nadon, coached the Junior Canadiens:

Yves Nadon hockey statistics and profile at hockeydb.com

Oh yeah. Didnt Yves also Coach NDG for at least part of the 63/64 season? Not entirely sure as records sketchy, but what I found was that a couple of resources specify Scotty as Coaching the Monarchs in the Playoffs, winning the MMJHL Title & Provincial Championships, facing the Toronto Marlboros in the Eastern Canadian Memorial Cup Finals losing 3 games to one.... the only team to beat Toronto in any series on their road to eventually winning the Cup.....

 

[Canadiens1958]

Oh yeah. Didnt Yves also Coach NDG for at least part of the 63/64 season? Not entirely sure as records sketchy, but what I found was that a couple of resources specify Scotty as Coaching the Monarchs in the Playoffs, winning the MMJHL Title & Provincial Championships, facing the Toronto Marlboros in the Eastern Canadian Memorial Cup Finals losing 3 games to one.... the only team to beat Toronto in any series on their road to eventually winning the Cup.....

AFAIK, Yves Nadon in the MMJHL / QMJHL only coached St. Jerome.

 

[Killion]

AFAIK, Yves Nadon in the MMJHL / QMJHL onlycoached St. Jerome.

The Alouettes. Sr. Intermediate & Junior clubs. I do know thats who he was with before being recruited by the Canadiens.... Monarchs with an outstanding roster in 63/64.... Vachon, Boudrias, Vadnais, Norm Ferguson, Bill Plager, Rocky Farr etc...

 

[seventieslord]

The shots, goals, and shooting% for both teams in Devils home and road games over 20 seasons. More shots in Devils road games in 17 of 20. Higher S% in Devils home games in 17 of 20 seasons. The only one of the 3 seasons after 1996-97 with higher S% in road games was 2000-01 where the Devils shot an incredible 11.52% on the road. Over the 20 seasons, the average shots are +2.85 shots in Devils road games, and +3.42 shots from 1997-98 on.

Year	GP	HSOG	HSOG/GP	HG	HS%	RSOG	RSOG/GP	RG	RS%
1993-94	42	2497	59.45	259	10.37	2596	61.81	267	10.29
1994-95	24	1367	56.96	128	9.36	1295	53.96	129	9.96
1995-96	41	2351	57.34	214	9.1	2459	59.98	203	8.26
1996-97	41	2416	58.93	204	8.44	2337	57	212	9.07
1997-98	41	2199	53.63	217	9.87	2145	52.32	174	8.11
1998-99	41	2256	55.02	225	9.97	2335	56.95	219	9.38
1999-00	41	2368	57.76	225	9.5	2450	59.76	229	9.35
2000-01	41	2244	54.73	237	10.56	2370	57.8	253	10.68
2001-02	41	2023	49.34	200	9.89	2322	56.63	192	8.27
2002-03	41	2205	53.78	206	9.34	2329	56.8	176	7.56
2003-04	41	2101	51.24	194	9.23	2333	56.9	183	7.84
2005-06	41	2278	55.56	225	9.88	2520	61.46	233	9.25
2006-07	41	2196	53.56	194	8.83	2490	60.73	205	8.23
2007-08	41	2268	55.32	197	8.69	2351	57.34	194	8.25
2008-09	41	2476	60.39	231	9.33	2637	64.32	214	8.12
2009-10	41	2205	53.78	210	9.52	2467	60.17	192	7.78
2010-11	41	2215	54.02	192	8.67	2281	55.63	186	8.15
2011-12	41	2208	53.85	213	9.65	2244	54.73	208	9.27
2012-13	24	1233	51.38	122	9.89	1239	51.62	110	8.88
2013-14	41	2070	50.49	191	9.23	2218	54.1	201	9.06
Total	787	43176	54.86	4084	9.46	45418	57.71	3980	8.76

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Thank you again for posting this.

It appears that there's actually no noticeable trend prior to 1998-99, then it becomes very noticeable and consistent. Would you agree?

Zero net difference per game in first five seasons (10832-10830), with results all over the map: +2.36, -3.00, +2.64, -1.93, -1.31

Then, a 34586-32346 difference between road and home, with positive results every year, and very positive results most years, with a net effect of 3.75 per game.

I'd be inclined to not credit Brodeur with any shot undercounting prior to 98-99 (interestingly this is when his sv% results started to tank, the team also started to take significantly more penalties for a few years) but then starting in 98-99 give him an extra 0.94 shots and saves per game.

I'd also be inclined to not look at every season as an individual entity (as in, this season deserves 1.55 extra shots per game, this season 0.57, etc) because there's no evidence the effect was significantly stronger in some seasons than others, just strong evidence that it did exist.

Thoughts?

 

[Michael Farkas]

It appears that there's actually no noticeable trend prior to 1998-99

Coaching change from the very defensive minded Jacques Lemaire, to a more offensive minded Robbie Ftorek...

 

[seventieslord]

Coaching change from the very defensive minded Jacques Lemaire, to a more offensive minded Robbie Ftorek...

Right, but Ftorek didn't last long, and the trend continued for 15 years.

Also, this has to do with undercounting of shots in the Devils arena, so I'm not sure if we can attribute that to any one coach.

 

[Michael Farkas]

The year just registered with me as a philosophical change...for something this abstract, I'm prepared to throw a ton of ideas or faux-ideas at the wall and see if someone smart can take one and run with it...

 

[BM67]

Thank you again for posting this.

It appears that there's actually no noticeable trend prior to 1998-99, then it becomes very noticeable and consistent. Would you agree?

Zero net difference per game in first five seasons (10832-10830), with results all over the map: +2.36, -3.00, +2.64, -1.93, -1.31

Then, a 34586-32346 difference between road and home, with positive results every year, and very positive results most years, with a net effect of 3.75 per game.

I'd be inclined to not credit Brodeur with any shot undercounting prior to 98-99 (interestingly this is when his sv% results started to tank, the team also started to take significantly more penalties for a few years) but then starting in 98-99 give him an extra 0.94 shots and saves per game.

I'd also be inclined to not look at every season as an individual entity (as in, this season deserves 1.55 extra shots per game, this season 0.57, etc) because there's no evidence the effect was significantly stronger in some seasons than others, just strong evidence that it did exist.

Thoughts?

I'd think the rather large difference in S% in 1997-98 would mark the start. It was also marked by a big drop in Brodeur's SOG/60 at home, average of 25.56 through 96-97 to 21.97 in 97-98.

 

[seventieslord]

The year just registered with me as a philosophical change...for something this abstract, I'm prepared to throw a ton of ideas or faux-ideas at the wall and see if someone smart can take one and run with it...

I'm working on a goalie mega-post right now, it's sv% based but it's got tons of nuance and context to it. You should both love it and hate it.

I think it is great medicine for anyone who thinks Brodeur is OMG THA BEST EVARRR!!! and also anyone who thinks OMG PRODUCT THE TRAP!!!

It also looks good for Sawchuk.

I will release late this afternoon/early evening. gotta go do the real work that pays the bills.

 

[seventieslord]

I'd think the rather large difference in S% in 1997-98 would mark the start. It was also marked by a big drop in Brodeur's SOG/60 at home, average of 25.56 through 96-97 to 21.97 in 97-98.

That could be an anomaly though. The Devils had more total shots counted in their home games than road games this year which is completely counter to the theory. I don't think it would be right to give any extra credit here. After that, absolutely.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'm working on a goalie mega-post right now, it's sv% based but it's got tons of nuance and context to it. You should both love it and hate it.

I think it is great medicine for anyone who thinks Brodeur is OMG THA BEST EVARRR!!! and also anyone who thinks OMG PRODUCT THE TRAP!!!

It also looks good for Sawchuk.

I will release late this afternoon/early evening. gotta go do the real work that pays the bills.

I hate it.

 

[seventieslord]

I hate it.

You're probably joking, but let me clarify: This should satisfy anyone who is concerned that Brodeur's save percentage was rarely dominant by throwing them a bone (downward adjustments for the lack of PPs he faced) while forcing them to also confront the fact that he affected shot differentials and that the devils scorers undercounted shots. This should also greatly satisfy anyone who has always suspected that Brodeur's lack of a dominant save percentage underrated his true talent and value, while also forcing them to confront the fact that he had an easier time facing fewer powerplays.

 

[BM67]

That could be an anomaly though. The Devils had more total shots counted in their home games than road games this year which is completely counter to the theory. I don't think it would be right to give any extra credit here. After that, absolutely.

I'd think the 52.32 SOG/60, being the 2nd lowest road total of the 20 seasons, would be your anomaly. There's a big difference between home and road S% for both teams, Brodeur's home SOG/60 took a big drop, and his H/R SV% are .911/.923. The only box not checked is the total number of shots at home being less than the road total, but they are still the 6th lowest of the 20 seasons.

 

[Michael Farkas]

You're probably joking, but let me clarify: This should satisfy anyone who is concerned that Brodeur's save percentage was rarely dominant by throwing them a bone (downward adjustments for the lack of PPs he faced) while forcing them to also confront the fact that he affected shot differentials and that the devils scorers undercounted shots. This should also greatly satisfy anyone who has always suspected that Brodeur's lack of a dominant save percentage underrated his true talent and value, while also forcing them to confront the fact that he had an easier time facing fewer powerplays.

Correction: I love it.


(yes, I was joking)