Folks, if you haven't done so, PLEASE read the wonderful bio on Nighbor by Nik Jr. from the 2010 ATD. One of the more in depth ones ever done.
ATD 2010 Bios
Don't be afraid to post more (and as many) useful links to posts and bios from past ATD's or projects done. This is for you and everyone else.
Not everyone (starting with me) is as experienced with various ATD's and past work done here, and wouldn't as easily find or look up such info. This is always
very useful, so thank you.
first impressions:
- I can make a case for Lafleur being the greatest Montreal forward, so he's my shoe in for top 4.
- Ovechkin and Jagr were in a death battle for me in the next round, will it continue?
- Look forward to the thousands of words of support for Nighbor cuz this is the moment his supporters have been waiting for. Don't know how convinced I'll be, but I'm looking forward to the education.
- Espo... always appreciated him, perhaps because history has under-appreciated him. I'd like to see him crack the top four of this round, but it could be tough.
- Now Kelly enters the Lidstrom vs Potvin debate. Should be interesting.
- My last two players of this round may be the same last two players of the previous round (lookin' at you, Moose and Jacques).
I think I can make an easy case for Lafleur being the
best Hab ever. He was simply "better" than others at his best. But greater = legacy impact, longevity, etc. He isn't #1 overall in that sense, which is why he's only available this round.
Can someone explain to me why people have no issues ranking Jagr this highly but are balking at Espo?
Edit: If I had my druthers there would be at least two subs this round (I agree that Nighbor and Clarke I would prefer to see them compared h2h, for instance), but I don't think anyone is necessarily out of place here.
I think a LOT of people have a LOT of issues with Jagr, for starters. And I mostly disagree with them. A simple answer to your question would be:
- Jagr's offensive peak is better than Espositio (length and height). And although Jagr had Lemieux - he was definitely less reliant on Lemieux than Espo on Orr since their primes didn't overlap (and I say this as someone whose very much wanting to counter the idea that Espo was a product of Orr, which I disagree with completely)
- Outside of peak, Jagr has better longevity
Without going too deep into it, Jagr > Espo seems easy enough at first glance.
Ovechkin over Jagr.
Ovechkin is, IMO, the 2nd greatest goal scorer ever (behind only Hull), certainly post consolidation, and has a very strong regular season resume. But he's got a signature Cup run to his name at the very least, unlike Jaromir, who played forever and never accomplished that feat.
Ovechkin may have a signature cup run - but in his prime he played on much better teams than Jagr did. Many president trophy champs who underachieved in playoffs. Maybe you can give Ovi the edge for playoffs due to his smythe, but it's still by no means a big gap. To achieve a "signature playoff run" the first criteria is having a team competitive enough to go on a deep run, and Ovi has had a LOT more of that than Jagr.
2nd greatest goal-scorer doesn't mean a whole lot to me since we're looking at overall offense. If you consider overall offense (which includes Ovi's claim to 2nd, or maybe even 1st greatest goal-scorer ever) - I think Jagr has more productive seasons than Ovechkin (and more of them too).
Would love to see you make an in-depth comparison between the 2 that doesn't play on your rash judgement of "Jagr was a disappointment in the playoffs for my team, so he has to rank lower than this other guy", which I feel a lot of your posts about him come across as.