Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 3

[quoipourquoi]

Procedure

• You will be presented with 10+ players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list (10 players plus anyone with 99% of the voting points of the 10th ranked player)
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to quoipourquoi
• Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
• The top-4 players will be added to The List in Vote 1, while the top-5 players will be added to The List in subsequent voting cycles (#1-4 in Vote 1, #5-9 in Vote 2, #10-14 in Vote 3, #15-19 in Vote 4, #20-24 in Vote 5, #25-29 in Vote 6, #30-34 in Vote 7, #35-39 in Vote 8, #40-44 in Vote 9, #45-49 in Vote 10, #50-54 in Vote 11, #55-59 in Vote 12, #60-64 in Vote 13, #65-69 in Vote 14, #70-74 in Vote 15, #75-79 in Vote 16, #80-84 in Vote 17, #85-89 in Vote 18, #90-94 in Vote 19, #95-99 in Vote 20)
• A 100th player will be added to The List in Vote 21 from an expanded group of 15 candidates

Eligible Voters

• Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 120 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
• Art of Sedinery, Batis, BenchBrawl, blogofmike, bobholly39, Canadiens1958, ChiTownPhilly, DannyGallivan, Dennis Bonvie, Dr John Carlson, ehhedler, Hockey Outsider, Iceman, ImporterExporter, Johnny Engine, JoseTheodore2002, kruezer, Kyle McMahon, Mike Farkas, MXD, pappyline, quoipourquoi, ResilientBeast, Sentinel, seventieslord, steve141, ted1971, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGeneral, The Macho Man, tony d, VanIslander

Guidelines

• Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
• Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
• Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
• Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

House Rules

• Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
• We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates. Overemphasizing a tired single-position argument like, I don’t know, Harvey/Lidstrom, will only be briefly tolerated before one is asked to move on to a less tedious comparison.
  
• Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
• Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

The actual voting period will open up on Friday, November 16th at midnight and continue through Sunday, November 18th at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, November 19th.


Vote 3 Candidates

• Alex Ovechkin
• Denis Potvin
• Dominik Hasek
• Eddie Shore
• Howie Morenz
• Jacques Plante
• Jaromir Jagr
• Mark Messier
• Nicklas Lidstrom
• Ray Bourque
• Sidney Crosby
• Stan Mikita

Click to read more...

 

[seventieslord]

Hot take: we have one defenseman who is easily behind the other three

 

[Hockey Outsider]

VsX - seven and ten year scores

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th	10th	7YR	10YR
Jaromir Jagr	126.0	124.2	118.7	116.0	112.1	102.1	100.0	87.8	87.2	85.1	114.2	105.9
Stan Mikita	138.6	114.1	104.8	103.6	100.0	100.0	93.8	91.7	90.7	87.9	107.8	102.5
Sidney Crosby	119.5	105.3	100.0	100.0	98.2	97.7	96.2	95.5	93.6	87.3	102.4	99.3
Howie Morenz	145.7	118.6	100.0	98.0	93.1	80.6	79.5	72.3	52.5	48.8	102.2	88.9
Alex Ovechkin	105.7	100.0	100.0	100.0	98.2	94.2	90.8	85.9	85.3	80.7	98.4	94.1
Mark Messier	100.0	99.1	92.2	85.5	84.7	83.5	82.5	77.1	75.7	70.0	89.6	85.0
Raymond Bourque	88.0	81.7	79.3	75.8	69.8	68.3	65.1	63.7	61.8	61.5	75.5	71.5
Denis Potvin	87.1	86.2	82.4	76.2	70.2	62.8	59.3	56.3	53.2	50.4	74.9	68.4
Nicklas Lidstrom	77.7	75.5	74.0	66.0	65.6	64.8	62.6	59.6	55.8	54.4	69.4	65.6
Eddie Shore	79.5	72.1	70.2	65.5	56.3	50.0	48.6	47.5	44.0	40.9	63.2	57.5

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Hart trophy voting

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th+	Total
Eddie Shore	4	1	2		1			8
Sidney Crosby	2	3	1		1	1		8
Alexander Ovechkin	3	2				2		7
Jaromir Jagr	1	4	1	1				7
Howie Morenz	3	1				1	1	6
Dominik Hasek	2	1	2				1	6
Stan Mikita	2	1		1	1		1	6
Ray Bourque		2			2	1		5
Denis Potvin		1		1			2	4
Nicklas Lidstrom				1			3	4
Mark Messier	2	1						3
Jacques Plante	1				1			2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

With Bobby Orr and Harvey ranked, the next defenseman should be Bourque. Shore's playoffs are not so great despite his four Hart trophies, Potvin had probably the best peak of the four but he didn't have the longevity of Bourque and Lidstrom. And Bourque was like a more physical Lidstrom with better offense, as good defensively and a better longevity where only Howe was better than him. Bourque was a slightly better and more evolved version of Lidstrom.

 

[MXD]

Hot take : I might end up ranking a goalie at the very top spot of each round until the end of the project.

 

[overg]

On deck this round . . . the battle for best European ever.

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

On deck this round . . . the battle for best European ever.

Indeed, it will be very interesting debate between Hasek, Jagr, Lidstrom and Ovechkin.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

There's one name I was expecting/hoping to be available this round that isn't there... my #4 ranked defenseman.

Considering I've seen more Ovechkin games than anybody else in this project, I'll probably do a write-up on him sometime in the next few days.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Most in depth Crosby bio you'll find....done by yours truly

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/134528609/

 

[ImporterExporter]

Comparison I did between Crosby, Messier, Morenz and Mikita a while back:



Scoring Finishes:


Howie Morenz

1, 1, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 10, 10

Sidney Crosby

1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 6

Stan Mikita

1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4

Mark Messier*

2, 3, 5, 5, 7

-Obviously Messier is far behind the other 3, but context is required considering he played 2nd fiddle to Gretzky in Edmonton and also played in the same era as Mario. Messier was also reliable defensively unlike many other scoring C's of his era.


Also a look at 7 and 10 year VsX

TABLE 1 - BEST SEVEN YEARS, POINTS (last updated: 2018)

Wayne Gretzky	155.6
Phil Esposito	130.4
Gordie Howe	125.5
Mario Lemieux	119.8
Bobby Orr	114.8
Jaromir Jagr	114.2
Bobby Hull	108.3
Stan Mikita	107.8
Jean Beliveau	105.7
Guy Lafleur	104.5
Ted Lindsay	104.4
Marcel Dionne	103.3
Sidney Crosby	102.4
Maurice Richard	102.4
Howie Morenz	102.2
Andy Bathgate	101.1
Alex Ovechkin	98.4
Joe Sakic	97.7
Bill Cowley	97.0
Charlie Conacher	96.2
Bill Cook	96.0
Joe Thornton	95.6
Frank Boucher	95.1
Mike Bossy	94.8
Evgeni Malkin	93.7
Bryan Trottier	93.7
Steve Yzerman	93.2
Teemu Selanne	92.7
Martin St. Louis	92.4
Syl Apps Sr	92.4
Sweeney Schriner	91.3
Bobby Clarke	90.4
Max Bentley	90.4
Peter Forsberg	90.3
Nels Stewart	90.3
Adam Oates	90.0
Bernie Geoffrion	89.9
Mark Messier	89.6

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

TABLE 2 - BEST TEN YEARS, POINTS (last updated: 2018)

Wayne Gretzky	144.7
Gordie Howe	118.1
Phil Esposito	117.6
Mario Lemieux	112.0
Jaromir Jagr	105.9
Stan Mikita	102.5
Bobby Hull	101.8
Jean Beliveau	100.0
Sidney Crosby	99.3
Maurice Richard	97.9
Marcel Dionne	97.5
Ted Lindsay	95.8
Andy Bathgate	95.6
Alex Ovechkin	94.1
Joe Sakic	94.0
Bobby Orr	92.1
Guy Lafleur	91.0
Joe Thornton	90.8
Mike Bossy	89.4
Howie Morenz	88.9
Frank Boucher	88.8
Steve Yzerman	88.8
Teemu Selanne	88.7
Bryan Trottier	87.2
Nels Stewart	87.1
Bill Cowley	86.7
Evgeni Malkin	86.7
Martin St. Louis	86.3
Adam Oates	86.2
Jean Ratelle	85.3
Mark Messier	85.0

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

-Mikita and Crosby hold up the best both in 7 and 10 year versions. Morenz looks strong in the 7 year study but drops considerably in the 10 year. Messier lags well behind the other 3.


Hart Trophy Voting:


Morenz:

1, 1, 1, 2, 6, 7,

Crosby:

1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 5, 6

Mikita:

1, 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7

Messier:

1, 1, 2, 9, 9


-Morenz has the most wins with 3, but Crosby probably edges him out when looking at depth of finishes. Mikita is just behind and even Messier manages to not look out of place. This is Crosby>Morenz>Mikita>Messier especially when you consider Crosby lost nearly 2 years of his prime and a season where he was on pace for 64 goals and 132 points over 41 games (not exactly a small sample size).


AS Finishes:


Morenz*

1, 1, 2

Crosby

1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2

Mikita

1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2

Messier

1, 1, 1, 2


-Morenz suffers from the AS award not being around before 1931, but given the information we have otherwise (like Hart voting for example) it's safe to say that Howie would likely have only picked up another 2 AS nods in 1928 (his 1st Hart year) and 1925 (He finished 2nd to Billy Burch in Hart voting). Other years he either finished far to low in the Hart voting (and well behind multiple C's) or didn't place at all. So even if you give him another 2 nods, he's still well behind Crosby and Mikita.

Morenz after the age of 29 was finished as an elite type player, at least offensively. A guy like Messier actually had one of his best seasons after 30 (1992) and another Hart caliber year at age 35. Crosby doesn't seem to be slowing down as he is about to turn 30 and coming off a tremendous year all around, but we'll have to see what transpires there.


Playoff Caliber Players?


-Morenz might be the weakest playoff performer here, although Mikita probably is in all reality. His 2 best playoff performances came prior to consolidation in 1924 and 1925. No question he was great both those years (competition has to be factored in) but after that, which makes up the bulk of his carer?

1927 - 1 goal in 4 games. Out in semi's.

1928 - 0 points in 2 games. Out in round 1.

1929 - 0 points in 3 games. Out in round 1.

1930 - He has 1 goal in the 2 game Cup final. 4 players scored more than he did for Montreal.

1931 - He scores 1 lonely goal in 5 (FIVE) games in Cup final. 5 players score more, including Johnny Gagnon with 4 goals and 6 points.

1932 - 1 goal in 4 games. Knocked out in round 1. 5 players score more.

1933 - Morenz was better with 3 assists in 2 games. Montreal still knocked in quarters.

1934 - 2 points in 2 games. Montreal out in quarters.

1935 - 0 points in 2 games. Hawks out in round 1.

15 points in 35 games after consolidation. And in the 2 years Montreal did win the Cup, Morenz was almost completely shut down. We see far less talented players stepping up.

Other random players totals in same or similar time periods (all post consolidation #'s):

Johnny Gagnon - 24 points in 32 games
Aurele Joliat - 19 in 40
Bill Cook - 24 in 46
Joe Primeau 23 in 38
Charlie Conacher 35 in 49
Harry Oliver 16 in 35


-Mark Messier is ahead in postseason performance IMO but Sid has closed the gap considerably. There is reason why he finished where he did in the recently completed top 40 HoH playoff performer project. Crosby is clearly 2nd here, especially given the events of the last 2 years. You can debate 3rd and 4th between Mikita and Morenz but they're clearly well behind both Messier and Sid.

Crosby dominant in the postseason and on the international stage:

-Crosby's dominance in the postseason might not be held as high as it should be, especially considering his career is nowhere near complete. By age 30 he had done:

-3 Cup wins in 4 tries. Been to 5 Conference finals.

-Crosby is only the 3rd player in NHL history to win back to back Conn Smythes.

-8th all time in playoff points per game

-185 points already puts him in a tie for 10th place with Steve Yzerman.

-63 Career Multi Point games in playoffs (3rd all time) in 160 games.

-Consider, Jari Kurri, playing in the highest scoring era of all time, had 60 MPG's but needed 200 contests to reach that. Mark Messier, 2nd all time, had 77 in 236 games.

2 Olympic Gold medals in 2 tries (2010/2014)
-Scored Golden goal in OT of gold medal game 2010
1 World Championship Gold (2015)
1 World Cup of Hockey Gold (2016)
-MVP and leading scorer
1 World Junior Gold (2005)

-Also named Best Forward at World Championship in 2006

-Youngest Player in history to win a World Championship scoring title (2006)

-Member of Quadruple Gold Club (Gold medeal at World Junior, WC', Olympics, and WCOH)

-Only player in hockey history to captain every team of the quad/triple gold clubs.

-Orr, Gretzky and Crosby are the three players in history to win the Hart Trophy, the Conn Smythe Trophy, and MVP at the Canada Cup or World Cup of Hockey.

-He is the 6th player in NHL history to win the Stanley Cup three times with two Olympic gold medals. Crosby joins Igor Larionov, Martin Brodeur, Scott Niedermayer, Duncan Keith, and Jonathan Toews as the players who make up that prestigious fraternity

 

[ted2019]

Mikita vs. Crosby could be interesting.
Hasek vs. Jagr
Ovie vs. Jagr

 

[Captain Bowie]

Wow, 12 names this round.

Surprised to see Messier this early.

 

[VanIslander]

Plante played behind Beliveau, Richard and Harvey (you know, the most responsible for the dynasty, as was argued last round) and he lost 1st and 2nd team all star selections to contemporaries. He's more like a Billy Smith or Grant Fuhr than a Roy or Hasek.

Plante (should be close to Hall, Sawchuk) doesn't belong anywhere near Hasek; Hasek belongs closer to Roy.

 

[VanIslander]

Mikita vs. Potvin ...

I have no opinion on this. Never gave it a thought and have no set impressions.

Would love to hear a detailed argument on them.

 

[ted2019]

I see Hasek as my top player early on. Crosby could be in my top 4 as Bourque. The 4th player should be fun to find. Curious on the placement of Potvin and Jagr/Ovechkin. I don't see Messier in my top 4, the same can be said for Shore.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Plante played behind Beliveau, Richard and Harvey (you know, the most responsible for the dynasty, as was argued last round) and he lost 1st and 2nd team all star selections to contemporaries. He's more like a Billy Smith or Grant Fuhr than a Roy or Hasek.

Plante (should be close to Hall, Sawchuk) doesn't belong anywhere near Hasek; Hasek belongs closer to Roy.

Plante was on the 1953 SC champions without Beliveau who was still in the QSHL.

1959 led the team to the SC with Maurice Richard and Beliveau, injured, Harvey playing hurt.

1962 Hart Trophy winner without Maurice Richard, Doug Harvey, Beliveau missing 25+ games.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Initial Impression:

Howie Morenz
Ray Bourque

then, four Europeans to choose three.

Time for Messier & Plante nominations, which ≠ time for their advancement.

Sidney Crosby received my last-place vote last round. He will not receive my last-place vote this round.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

VsX - seven and ten year scores

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th	10th	7YR	10YR
Jaromir Jagr	126.0	124.2	118.7	116.0	112.1	102.1	100.0	87.8	87.2	85.1	114.2	105.9
Sidney Crosby	119.5	105.3	100.0	100.0	98.2	97.7	96.2	95.5	93.6	87.3	102.4	99.3

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

A good starting point to opening our eyes to the possibility that Sidney Crosby just might not be the Second-Baddest Aqua-Bird of All-Time.

Further perusals yield:

AS-Team:
Jagr: 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2
Crosby: 1,1,1,1,2,2,2

Outstanding/Valuable Trophies:
Hart:
Jagr: 1x winner, 3x runner-up
Crosby: 2x winner, 3x runner-up
Pearson/Lindsay:
Jagr: 3x
Crosby: 3x

Plus-Minus through age 30 (i.e.: Crosby's last completed year):
Jagr: +212
Crosby: +165

[Oh, and by-the-way, Jagr lost a production year through no personal fault of his own. (The 04-05 Lockout season.) The year after that, he banked a Pearson/Lindsay as a 33-year-old, so there could have been something in the tank the year before, too- if he'd had a chance to show it. This theme comes also comes into play this round- with Lidström, who had six 1st team AS nods and three Norrises before the Lockout, and four AS-1s and four Norrises after it.]

 

[BenchBrawl]

First impressions:

• Morenz is my preliminary #1, with Crosby, Shore and Plante the leading candidates to follow him.Messier vs. Crosby will be interesting to explore.
  
• Disappointing not to have Lafleur to compare him to Jagr and Ovechkin, but I don't think neither should get in yet anyway.
  
• Messier > Mikita, change my mind (I had multiple non-eligible centers over Mikita, hope someone will make the case for him)
  
• Glad to see Denis Potvin coming up.I voted him ahead of both Bourque and Lidstrom based on peak, leadership, all-aroundness, playoffs and being the key guy transitioning a lottery team into a dynasty.This is undoubtedly an unpopular opinion.Will try to post more about him later this week.I think he's being punished for his RS in the early 80s, but frankly I don't think they matter that much since he was busy generalling a dynasty, which de facto makes him the most important defenseman of that window in the NHL.

 

[Orange Dragon]

[Oh, and by-the-way, Jagr lost a production year through no personal fault of his own. (The 04-05 Lockout season.) The year after that, he banked a Pearson/Lindsay as a 33-year-old, so there could have been something in the tank the year before, too- if he'd had a chance to show it. This theme comes also comes into play this round- with Lidström, who had six 1st team AS nods and three Norrises before the Lockout, and four AS-1s and four Norrises after it.]

I'm big Jagr fan, but I doubt we would see monster season of him like in 05-06 season without the lockout, I think he absolutely needed the year off the NHL to rejuvenate himself. On the other hand every one had a year off, and Jagr get the most of it (and Thornton ofc).

 

[sr edler]

Would have liked to see a 1910s guy on here too, like a Nighbor or a Cyclone, for spread/discussion reasons. It feels a bit clunked (probably not a real word, but I’m not an English speaker) now.

Someone has to make a splendid case for Messier for me not ranking him last. He’s not better than Trottier/Clarke or even Esposito, in ehhedler’s book.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Little surprised to see Alexander Ovechkin and not to see Red Kelly...

 

[sr edler]

Little surprised to see Alexander Ovechkin and not to see Red Kelly...

He just won the Cup, bruh.

No, but even if I have warmed up a little to Ovechkin, and even if he had an inspiring playoff run last spring (even though Kuznetsov was better), he's still a player with a very distinct peak (2007–2010), and a very distinct fall from that peak, and a subsequent transformation to something that wasn't close to that peak neither stylistically or effectively, something of a post peak Brett Hull hybrid with better skating. And with a few semi-suspect international showings.

Jagr's certainly better than that, even with all his own faults. (they're really close on my own list though, I just recognized)

 

[bobholly39]

Ecstatic to *finally* see Jaromir Jagr show up. I really feel he had a case against both Hull and Richard and disappointed we didn't get to make it. To me Jaromir Jagr is:

- Arguably the 5th best peak in hockey history (after the big 4). Both on height of peak - but also length, he does fantastic in both metrics
- Arguably the greatest longevity for a player (certainly a winger) after Gordie Howe in hockey history (he has a few holes in his overall career with a few off years - but he lasted longer than most as a high caliber player, which is what i mean by longevity)

Obviously - based on the fact that he wasn't available last round, let alone in the first round, I take it many people around here aren't as high on him as I am. I hope he gets a fair share though. Other metrics on which he does well:

- International Resume. Nothing Gretzky-like, but many very strong performances over the long run
- Playoffs. Not many of those "single heroic smythe-worthy runs" maybe - but i think his overall resume still shows a consistent performer year over year (looking forward to analyzing more in-depth).

His case will rest majorly on offensive contributions. That's not a bad thing. He was an offensive winger (like Hull - already voted in) - but did that better than almost anyone.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Ecstatic to *finally* see Jaromir Jagr show up. I really feel he had a case against both Hull and Richard and disappointed we didn't get to make it. To me Jaromir Jagr is:

- Arguably the 5th best peak in hockey history (after the big 4). Both on height of peak - but also length, he does fantastic in both metrics
- Arguably the greatest longevity for a player (certainly a winger) after Gordie Howe in hockey history (he has a few holes in his overall career with a few off years - but he lasted longer than most as a high caliber player, which is what i mean by longevity)

Obviously - based on the fact that he wasn't available last round, let alone in the first round, I take it many people around here aren't as high on him as I am. I hope he gets a fair share though. Other metrics on which he does well:

- International Resume. Nothing Gretzky-like, but many very strong performances over the long run
- Playoffs. Not many of those "single heroic smythe-worthy runs" maybe - but i think his overall resume still shows a consistent performer year over year (looking forward to analyzing more in-depth).

His case will rest majorly on offensive contributions. That's not a bad thing. He was an offensive winger (like Hull - already voted in) - but did that better than almost anyone.

I fail to see what makes Jagr's peak better than Lafleur's, considering the latter continued it throughout the playoffs in grandiose fashion.There's no reason to separate RS and playoffs.