Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 1

[BenchBrawl]

Counter-argument to my own ranking of Wayne Gretzky at #3:

Wayne has perhaps the greatest star power in history, and he sure had a ''winning'' aura, perhaps moreso than Howe and Orr.You got the feeling that with Wayne on your side, victory was yours.Somehow, you'd win.I value those two aspects a lot, so I could easily rank Gretzky #1 too.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

This is not the first time in this thread I've seen it stated that Gretzky "only" won four Cups. My question to those who say this is, how many more do you think he should have won if he had played a different style of game?

Four ties him with Howe for most among the Big 4, and if my math is correct, he's also got the highest Cups/seasons-played percentage of the Big 4.

Furthermore, since Gretzky entered the league, the only guys to have won more Cups than him were all Oilers (who picked up 4 in very large part because of Gretzky), and Trottier (who was playing a supporting role to Lemieux and a stacked Pens team for his last two). Source: Most NHL Championships Won | Hockey-Reference.com

Is there a particular year that Gretzky didn't win the Cup that he might have by playing a more defensive game? Because I look at Gretzky and his four Cups, and it looks pretty strong to me. And even if you could scrutinize one or more of Gretzky's non-Cup years, what happens when you put every other player in league history through the same analysis? To the best of my knowledge, there's not a single career-NHL'er who has a perfect playoff record. So I'm just not understanding how four Cups is a criticism, especially when comparing the Big 4.

Gretzky had 20 full NHL season. Four Cups.

Orr only had 9. Two Cups.

 

[blogofmike]

You know they're not defensemen, right?

Seems like I've stated this a few times already.

It's been posited that Orr could score 180 in the 1980s. Never mind that he was on a 399 GF team already, and that's better than any no-Gretzky team. So it may need to be reiterated that Orr couldn't score like 99 and 66.

 

[blogofmike]

Gretzky had 20 full NHL season. Four Cups.

Orr only had 9. Two Cups.

I think he counts Chicago.

 

[Sempiternal]

Wayne Gretzky is the GOAT AINEC.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Wayne Gretzky is the GOAT AINEC.

Well, I’m convinced...




...that this will be the last project I do.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

It's been posited that Orr could score 180 in the 1980s. Never mind that he was on a 399 GF team already, and that's better than any no-Gretzky team. So it may need to be reiterated that Orr couldn't score like 99 and 66.

Of course he couldn't.

He was a defenseman!!!!!

Must say, I'm a little disappointed that there are participants here that need to be reminded of this.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Well, I’m convinced...




...that this will be the last project I do.

Why is that?

 

[Sempiternal]

Well, I’m convinced...




...that this will be the last project I do.

Wasting your time bro.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I think he counts Chicago.

That would seem disingenuous, no?

 

[quoipourquoi]

Also, yeah, voting opens up at midnight.

 

[blogofmike]

Counter-argument to my own ranking of Wayne Gretzky at #3:

Wayne has perhaps the greatest star power in history, and he sure had a ''winning'' aura, perhaps moreso than Howe and Orr.You got the feeling that with Wayne on your side, victory was yours.Somehow, you'd win.I value those two aspects a lot, so I could easily rank Gretzky #1 too.

The Kings felt that way. From players at practice to guys in the front office, everyone stepped up their game. Aside from the Big Macs, practicing with Wayne was a hugely helpful thing for Bernie Nicholls, who said even practices got more intense the day he showed up.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Wayne Gretzky is the GOAT AINEC.

Who let the juveniles in?

 

[Canadiens1958]

I don't think I agree with this actually. The games I watch from the early 80's are not good hockey, they're sloppy, unkempt and there isn't consistency shift to shift or even game to game...they're kind of a mess...truth be told, I expected the opposite...but the post-expansion ('67 to '72 area) games are a little tighter, a little more organized...it's the spacing really that drives it for me, you can tell a lot about the game by the spacing and the gaps I feel like...in the early 80's, they're wonky and just off...I mean, the Islanders are right. The Islanders are well structured for that time...support triangles all over the ice, they are well coached from a schematics point of view...

I'll continue.

Only one new HHOF level goalie made their NHL debut between 1975 and 1984, impacting the level of play. Grant Fuhr.

Weakest 10 year stretch for new goalies in NHL history.

Short shift game,mainly fast forwards started to emerge. Forwards who could not make major junior made the NHL.

Three Calder winners scored 100+ points in 5 seasons,1981-85. Only two since.

A 19 year old QMJHL, 8th round entry draft made the NHL Caps as a defensive specialist.

Gaetan Duchesne Stats | Hockey-Reference.com
Few incoming forwards could play defensively.

 

[K Fleur]

RE: Lemieux Whining

People want hockey players to speak up for themselves, the state of the sport, have some charisma, and not "be robots".

Until they do it.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Wayne Gretzky is the GOAT AINEC.

Daycare project. So cute.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Also, yeah, voting opens up at midnight.

So the names are:

• Bobby Hull
• Bobby Orr
• Doug Harvey
• Gordie Howe
• Jean Beliveau
• Mario Lemieux
• Maurice Richard
• Patrick Roy
• Ray Bourque
• Wayne Gretzky

My guess on the order:

Gretzky
Orr
Howe
Lemieux


No surprises here.

 

[ImporterExporter]

You are misreading the table. It rewards SH goals.

Boston was fairly average most of the time at preventing PPGA. (For C58, they gave up almost 1 PPGA per playoff game). It obviously depended on the opponent. The top 5 teams at scoring PP goals against Boston? They rhyme with shmoriginal schmix.

The table is gone, but Gretzky did okay among top PKing centres here: https://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/27130841

From memory I believe Gretzky was just behind Messier and Fedorov and Yzerman were near the top.

I'll ask @overpass to chime in for clarity if he has the time/chance.

But I'd wager Boston's sometimes average PK numbers league wide had more to do with when he wasn't on the ice vs on.

Regardless the tables I've provided more than once bear out Orr's power over 200 feet, in all phases of the game. Nobody dominated the PP like Orr. I have never been presented with a study that shows other great Dmen to be superior on the kill. Orr might have been more of a possession based defender but that possession of the puck is exactly why he was so damn good on D.

But here are some videos to illustrate how dominant D TRANSLATES INTO DIRECT OFFENSE.



0:28 seconds through 0:40 (music is a bit loud fyi)
-Orr plays exception positional D, taking away cross crease pass (high danger area especially that era), intercepts it, then literally goes coast to coast, like lightning, makes a great feed and we have a goal. Defense to offense. Perfection. Gretzky wasn't doing that. Certainly not consistently.

Also, his skating is so breathtaking. The most effortless man on skates I've ever seen.

And before his knees went fully he was a beast if you dropped the gloves. Some don't realize how damn physical and tough he was, especially as his knees started going.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I'll ask @overpass to chime in for clarity if he has the time/chance.

But I'd wager Boston's sometimes average PK numbers league wide had more to do with when he wasn't on the ice vs on.

Regardless the tables I've provided more than once bear out Orr's power over 200 feet, in all phases of the game. Nobody dominated the PP like Orr. I have never been presented with a study that shows other great Dmen to be superior on the kill. Orr might have been more of a possession based defender but that possession of the puck is exactly why he was so damn good on D.

But here are some videos to illustrate how dominant D TRANSLATES INTO DIRECT OFFENSE.



0:28 seconds through 0:40 (music is a bit loud fyi)
-Orr plays exception positional D, taking away cross crease pass (high danger area especially that era), intercepts it, then literally goes coast to coast, like lightning, makes a great feed and we have a goal. Defense to offense. Perfection. Gretzky wasn't doing that. Certainly not consistently.

Also, his skating is so breathtaking. The most effortless man on skates I've ever seen.

And before his knees went fully he was a beast if you dropped the gloves. Some don't realize how damn physical and tough he was, especially as his knees started going.

Gretzky was a forward!

 

[Nick Hansen]

0:28 seconds through 0:40 (music is a bit loud fyi)
-Orr plays exception positional D, taking away cross crease pass (high danger area especially that era), intercepts it, then literally goes coast to coast, like lightning, makes a great feed and we have a goal. Defense to offense. Perfection. Gretzky wasn't doing that. Certainly not consistently.

I'd think every great hockey player in history did a play of this sort sometimes in their career. I do it sometimes in my floorball team. Erik Karlsson has done it multiple times at the highest level.

I really don't understand the purpose of cutting a single moment and declare it more or less unique. Orr, Richard and Beliveau wasn't superhuman. I am sorry.

edit: I now saw it was PK, so that's not too bad. Still, a player like Mike Richards has a more impressive PK shift than that.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I will never judge a player on a highlight reel, as that's silly. But this is an odd take as a response to one...

 

[Canadiens1958]

Some Top 5 consideration should be given the following:

Jean Beliveau. Longevity with the smallest gap between the first and second half of his career. Went from superstar to master.

Doug Harvey. Widest gap between defencemen from an era. Doug and the rest. At age 44 competed, leading his team to wins over Bobby Orr in Boston. No comparison with other 44 year old greats.

Bobby Hull. NHL archival data is very favourable to him. Should have played center. Hawks not the opposition neutralized his speed.

Maurice Richard. Longshot. Overachieved tremendously after pre and early NHL injuries.

Ray Bourque and Patrick Roy. Longershots. Not this round.

 

[blogofmike]

I'll ask @overpass to chime in for clarity if he has the time/chance.

But I'd wager Boston's sometimes average PK numbers league wide had more to do with when he wasn't on the ice vs on.

Regardless the tables I've provided more than once bear out Orr's power over 200 feet, in all phases of the game. Nobody dominated the PP like Orr. I have never been presented with a study that shows other great Dmen to be superior on the kill. Orr might have been more of a possession based defender but that possession of the puck is exactly why he was so damn good on D.

But here are some videos to illustrate how dominant D TRANSLATES INTO DIRECT OFFENSE.



0:28 seconds through 0:40 (music is a bit loud fyi)
-Orr plays exception positional D, taking away cross crease pass (high danger area especially that era), intercepts it, then literally goes coast to coast, like lightning, makes a great feed and we have a goal. Defense to offense. Perfection. Gretzky wasn't doing that. Certainly not consistently.

Also, his skating is so breathtaking. The most effortless man on skates I've ever seen.

And before his knees went fully he was a beast if you dropped the gloves. Some don't realize how damn physical and tough he was, especially as his knees started going.

Can you clip out the expansion teams?

Also, he was bad behind the other team's net. Just lying there like that...

 

[sr edler]

Even my mom knows who Bobby Orr is. And she doesn’t even care about hockey.

 

[overg]

That would seem disingenuous, no?

Not intentionally so. But point taken.

In retort, I'd ask if it's fair to expect Gretzky to have put any team he played on over the edge once he was past his prime. Because really, is the difference between Gretzky and Orr or Howe that he wasn't a good enough support player when it comes to winning Cups? THAT seems a disingenuous position to take. Maybe if Gretzky was in direct competition with someone like Trottier, that would be a fair knock against Wayne. But not when comparing him to Orr, Howe, or Lemieux.