Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (Revenge of Michael Myers)

[Iceman]

I even have a dman between those two.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Lidstrom is almost consensually ranked above Potvin in the last few years.

By who?

I'd guess fans that didn't see Potvin play.

 

[Sentinel]

By who?

I'd guess fans that didn't see Potvin play.

I saw him play... against the Soviets. Makarov turned him inside out routinely.

That's not to say Lidstrom wasn't beaten one on one. He was... just a lot less.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

This is a prime case of revisionism.

I'm starting to worry this project is gonna turn into hot take / full scale revisionism. Lidstrom should never be ranked below Potvin. Never. Norrises matter.

I don't really want to say anything negative about either of these guys, they are all-time greats. But to me, Potvin did more positive things on the ice. He made more plays, offensively and defensively. Lidstrom probably was the most error-free defenseman ever. Its hardly revisionist and I still give a hair of advantage to Potvin.

 

[BenchBrawl]

By who?

I'd guess fans that didn't see Potvin play.

Not by me, but by the majority on this site I think.I could be wrong.

 

[Sentinel]

Being on a quasi-dynasty with two distinctly different lineups and being the best player in his position for over a decade and a $1.50 will buy Martin Brodeur a cup of coffee too...

What are you talking about? $1.50 won't buy you a cup of coffee even in Indiana!

Brodeur has four "best player in his position" trophies. That's less than a decade. Lidstrom has seven.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I saw him play... against the Soviets. Makarov turned him inside out routinely.

That's not to say Lidstrom wasn't beaten one on one. He was... just a lot less.

So you saw Potvin a couple of times, past his prime, getting beat by one of the greatest 1 0n 1 players ever.

Not really what I meant by "saw him play".

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I’m hoping there were/are people “bold” enough to place Brodeur above Lidstrom. That’s a discussion that needs to happen.

Despite general perception being contrary, I think they’re about as even as it gets.

I've got Lidstrom about 30 spots ahead of Brodeur.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I've got Lidstrom about 30 spots ahead of Brodeur.

Where do you have Potvin and Lidstrom? (If you want to say)

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Where do you have Potvin and Lidstrom? (If you want to say)

17 and 19.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

17 and 19.

How many goalies do you have over Brodeur? Late 40s is pretty harsh on him unless you don't value the position as highly as others.

 

[Iceman]

Actually, scratch that... I have 2 dmen between Lidström and Potvin. A third was actually close to making it early on but I contained myself.

 

[MXD]

I have exactly zero D-Men between Lidstrom and Potvin. I do have Martin Brodeur between them, however.

 

[Sentinel]

So you saw Potvin a couple of times, past his prime, getting beat by one of the greatest 1 0n 1 players ever.

Not really what I meant by "saw him play".

I am joking. I saw taped games.

Also: why was Potvin "past his prime" in 1981 and 1984?

 

[Canadiens1958]

I saw him play... against the Soviets. Makarov turned him inside out routinely.

That's not to say Lidstrom wasn't beaten one on one. He was... just a lot less.

R.J. Umberger, intercepts Lidstrom pass and executes a Maurice Richard buttonhook to score on Jimmy Howard:

 

[sr edler]

R.J. Umberger, intercepts Lidstrom pass and executes a Maurice Richard buttonhook to score on Jimmy Howard:

Ouch!

Had I seen this sequence before voting process Lidas would have dropped at least 5 spots on my list.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Actually, scratch that... I have 2 dmen between Lidström and Potvin. A third was actually close to making it early on but I contained myself.

Yes- I have two Defensemen between them as well- that other multiple-Hart-winning Defenseman from Boston- and the best Defenseman of the 1980s.

You know- I was also wondering about this "consensus of Lidström>Potvin" stuff myself-- so I had a look in our archives to look at how we viewed it in the past.

For the 2008 all-time list, we had Potvin at 17 and Lidström at 26.
Then, in our 2009 re-assessment, Potvin virtually held his place (18)... but Lidström nosed ahead, placing 17th.
In our 2011-2012 Defensemen Project, Lidström maintained that narrow edge, 5 vs. 6.

Now- sometimes we re-calibrate our viewpoints on players as a result of our research- but there are other times that things we see on the ice induce us to reconsider. Between the start of 2008 and his retirement, Lidström added a quartet (two 1sts/two 2nds) of All-Star Team nods, nailed down another Cup, and garnered two Norrises (even if we acknowledge that one of them was an 'Emeritus/Laureate' sort of Norris). Far from being in "hang-on" mode, he was adding positive items to his résumé as 37-38-39... even 40 year-old.

Best non-Canadian born player ever to play the game? At the very worst, he's on the podium. Will we be talking about him in Vote 3, or Vote 4? I hope it's Vote 3.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Ouch!

Had I seen this sequence before voting process Lidas would have dropped at least 5 spots on my list.

Earlier, same type of play, same player, R.J. Umberger. Same result.



Learning from mistakes does not always happen.

Basic difference between assertive and reactive hockey.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

From the audio:

"No question that Joey MacDonald would like another shot at this one; as that shouldn't get through." [And this was from the Flyer feed.]

Guess not-so-freshly picked cherries are on the menu for breakfast.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

How many goalies do you have over Brodeur? Late 40s is pretty harsh on him unless you don't value the position as highly as others.

Actually, I don't value Brodeur as highly as others.

 

[Canadiens1958]

From the audio:

"No question that Joey MacDonald would like another shot at this one; as that shouldn't get through." [And this was from the Flyer feed.]

Guess not-so-freshly picked cherries are on the menu for breakfast.

Umberger, very average 2-3 liner, had
180 RS career goals.

R.J. Umberger Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

How many other NHL defencemen, did he buttonhook twice to score? Elite defencemen?

Love the its "always something" response to Lidstrom mistakes - the defensive partner (overlooking that he only won Norris trophies after Chelios joined the team). The goalie, thethis, that and everything but Niklas.

Made Pee Wee level mistakes. Tired, but stretch passes into a Columbus line change instead of the safe play.

Do not care about the colour man. As much value as Don Cherry, none.Job of the e defenceman is to preclude the buttoniclockhook. Umberger is a LHS on the off wing. Lidstrom is a LHS on his strong side. Easy play at 4-2 o'clock and 12-11 o'clock, going counter clockwise.

Goalie should never been challenged.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Between the start of 2008 and his retirement, Lidström added a quartet (two 1sts/two 2nds) of All-Star Team nods, nailed down another Cup, and garnered two Norrises (even if we acknowledge that one of them was an 'Emeritus/Laureate' sort of Norris). Far from being in "hang-on" mode, he was adding positive items to his résumé as 37-38-39... even 40 year-old.

I don’t think it’s unusual for defensemen in the big money era to be in the best position to add those positive items late in a career.

There’s increased incentive to playing at 37-40. I think Denis Potvin maxed out at $550,000 when he retired at 34-years-old with gasoline in the tank, while Lidstrom was taking $6.2-7.6 million annually at the end of his. Bourque, Chelios, MacInnis, Stevens - they all hit $6-7 million in their late-30s, picking up some All-Star selections.

More than that, the threshold for those All-Star selections wasn’t always the most demanding - no disrespect to players like Boyle, Campbell, Visnovsky, Yandle, but they’re not exactly 2009 non-All-Star Sidney Crosby.

Granted, you’re not seeing all of those 67-GP All-Star defensemen you did before, but the voters are looking for 50+ points on teams with good records, and as much as Detroit has had overhaul, they retained an incredible amount of offensive firepower in this period, ranking 3rd, 1st, 14th, and 2nd in GF in Lidstrom’s four All-Star selections. And not surprisingly, the year they were 14th was the one where he was not only not nominated for the Norris, but had less than 50% of the 3rd place Norris finisher’s voting share.

Lastly, in the final five seasons of Lidstrom’s career, 16 forwards and 8 goaltenders landed top-5 in Hart voting to Lidstrom’s sole representation for defensemen in 2008.

*sips tea*

 

[Michael Farkas]

As a general rule, if I had to choose, I should trust the NHL's game log over HSP, right?

Example: Game 3 of the 1955 Semi-Final: Boston/Montreal.

NHL says: Plante plays 41:17, gives up 1 goal, no decision
HSP says: Plante plays 43:00, gives up 2 goals, no decision

The NHL time makes more sense in terms of game script, as I assume Hodge started gave up 3 goals in 18:45 (thus, Plante played 41ish minutes), gave up the 1 Boston 2nd period goal and because Montreal didn't score a third goal, the decision still belongs to Hodge...but have we found evidence to the contrary?

 

[MXD]

Lastly, in the final five seasons of Lidstrom’s career, 16 forwards and 8 goaltenders landed top-5 in Hart voting to Lidstrom’s sole representation for defensemen in 2008.

... A nice illustration of positionnal bias, I must say.

 

[Sentinel]

R.J. Umberger, intercepts Lidstrom pass and executes a Maurice Richard buttonhook to score on Jimmy Howard

just a lot less.

I feel like this needs to be offset. Strange how quickly people forgot how phenomenal Lidstrom was.