Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (Citizens on Patrol)

[ImporterExporter]

I have to say that I'm amazed by all the Nighbor love. Perhaps I should have read up more, but the following here seems almost cult-like. It is very hard to quantify such specifics about players who have no footage, who played in an era where the game was sooooooo different, and where the only real evidence is sports page recounts, stats and awards. When it comes to Nighbor, virtually all the evidence in his favour is text-based, since his numbers weren't eyebrow-raising.

I trust your judgement... to a point.

And this is why so many people, IMHO, need to examine the game further, at a much deeper level. It's not just about the numbers (conversely why I'm lower on Dionne than everyone else it seems). And in Nighbor's case he lost A LOT of offensive value because he was slanted heavily towards play making which was not tracked well. His assist totals would be much higher if properly credited and that in turn would have greatly increased his offensive value, which is still good on the surface, just not elite. But I, and others, think it would have been had he benefited from more modern (post consolidation type) tracking of stats.

 

[Sentinel]

Precisely where I'm at with Nighbor. Have him 21st, one spot over Howie and I think I'll be moving Frank up a few spots when it's all said and done.

He is, without a doubt in my mind, the greatest 2 way player of all time. The Montreal papers and media polls favor Morenz (again, some serious hyperbole is evident and Morenz benefited from playing for Montreal in terms of exposure) but if you look at what Morenz himself was saying, along with many other superstars and coaches, you clearly can see that Nighbor was the best pre WWII player of all time....IMO.

If anything I'd swap Nighbor and Shore on my original list sent.

Can you provide the link for that "Nighbor refresher"? What makes him better than Howe, Clarke, Fedorov, and Sakic?

 

[DannyGallivan]

Popular at getting people to go WTF!

Outside of his one all time great season I don't see a lot of value with Price. Some of that has to do with being on a dumpster fire team of late, but he looks a lot like Bernie Parent without the playoff brilliance.

cooincidentally, I have Bernie at 120 and Price didn't make my list.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Can you provide the link for that "Nighbor refresher"? What makes him better than Howe, Clarke, Fedorov, and Sakic?

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/23959895/

Enjoy. It's quite the read, but well worth it.

 

[BenchBrawl]

All of Nighbor, Cleghorn, Clancy, Gerard, Denneny, Benedict and Georges Boucher were ranked in my Top 120.

Also ranked Harry Cameron, who played shortly for the Senators.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Then you look at his stats and see that he only has one all timer season as a goal scorer.

Nighbor was great, but his goal scoring record is not that great, ccomparatively.

Also, what of Eddie Gerard, who received his fair share of praise for that dynasty?

I have Gerard 89th all time. Probably a bit higher than most. He's another guy who's underrated and could move up even more for me.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I have Gerard 89th all time. Probably a bit higher than most. He's another guy who's underrated and could move up even more for me.

Just curious... how many players pre-1930 do you have?

 

[VanIslander]

All of Nighbor, Cleghorn, Clancy, Gerard, Denneny, Benedict and Boucher were ranked in my Top 120.

Heck, they're all in my top 63 !!
(Edit: except Denneny is 90th)

I got Nighbor at 20th and think he fits in well there. I have Morenz two slots ahead of him but some days I feel he should be two slots behind. The more I've researched them, the more torn I am, a sign of there shouldn't be much of a gap, whichever guy eventually ends up on top.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Heck, they're all in my top 63 !!
(Edit: except Denneny is 90th)

I meant Georges Boucher, but Frank also played for the Senators now that you mention it.I ranked both.

For me the Georges Boucher case is simple: If you ranked Guy Lapointe, you should probably rank Georges Boucher.

 

[VanIslander]

For me the Georges Boucher case is simple: If you ranked Guy Lapointe, you should probably rank Georges Boucher.

Easy peasy. Neither are on my list.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Just curious... how many players pre-1930 do you have?

The 1915-1929 era is the most entertaining of all, you don't know what you're missing out.

Pre-1910 is harder to judge.

 

[DannyGallivan]

The 1915-1929 era is the most entertaining of all, you don't know what you're missing out.

Ah... I must have not been born then.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Just curious... how many players pre-1930 do you have?

18 by my count, although a few were guys who played into the 30's but saw their careers started in the teens or 20's.

 

[DannyGallivan]

The 1915-1929 era is the most entertaining of all, you don't know what you're missing out.

Pre-1910 is harder to judge.

Well, I finally managed to find footage of Nighbor, and somebody who appears to be Sprague Cleghorn. I can see how they make the top 50.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Well, I finally managed to find footage of Nighbor, and somebody who appears to be Sprague Cleghorn. I can see how they make the top 50.

What are you doing in this section if you're going to crap on older eras?

 

[DannyGallivan]

18 by my count, although a few were guys who played into the 30's but saw their careers started in the teens or 20's.

I figured you had more, but you probably just have them placed higher. I have 20 pre-original six... which includes the 30's.

 

[DannyGallivan]

What are you doing in this section if you're going to crap on older eras?

Just making a joke. I have virtually the same players from this era as you. And the slash was definitely Cleghorn (number 68 on my list) material.

 

[MXD]

I won't be reading any posts containing the words "Frank Nighbor" until common sense is back, and I really don't care if you're offended.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I have a hard time wrapping my head around this one. It's like saying that Ali would have a tougher time boxing an amateur boxer because Ali moved too fast. If you're shadowing a slower player, you have an easier assignment. It just so happened that faster stars require faster checkers to defend against them. The only way to defend against Esposito was to be stronger than him (rarely happened because few players rooted into the ice like he did) or be quicker than his stick (again, much easier said than done).

We are not discussing boxing which is a one on one sport. Ali moving faster would always be an advantage since he would be faster to defend and faster to punch. We are discussing a team sport.

Back to Richard and Esposito. Richard played with skating wingers - Provost, Gilles Tremblay,etc. Ralph Backstrom fast, played with slower wingers Larose and Ferguson so the tempo of the line was more suited to Esposito's pace.

Esposito was a rare trailing center with Boston, strength was a factor but playing with Orr he was able to benefit from the space created by defensive players overskating him. Overskating does not have a boxing equivalent.

 

[bobholly39]

Popular at getting people to go WTF!

Outside of his one all time great season I don't see a lot of value with Price. Some of that has to do with being on a dumpster fire team of late, but he looks a lot like Bernie Parent without the playoff brilliance.

I kind of surprised myself on the McDavid front honestly. I was pretty adament about not ranking him initially but in the end hes better than a lot of players. Hes still not worth spending too much time discussing as its mostly moot. Wherever he gets ranked here (if he does) won't matter very soon as he goes on in his career and rises

Im very high on Price on the international stage in addition to his hart and lindsay season. I wouldnt be surprised if im the only one who ranked him though

 

[VanIslander]

...how many players pre-1930 do you have?

Top10 : 1
11-20 : 2
21-30 : 0
31-40 : 1
41-50 : 0
51-60 : 4
61-70 : 2
71-80 : 2
81-90 : 3
91-100 : 1

101-110 : 1
111-120 : 0

Dang! I've only four (4) in the top 50 !
17 on my list in all.

I have read a lot of hockey history books about pre-O6 eras, and love learning about early Stanley Cup challenges, early pro leagues like the mining leagues, the NHA and PCHA. I'm surprised I've only four in the top half of the list.

 

[The Macho King]

Popular at getting people to go WTF!

Outside of his one all time great season I don't see a lot of value with Price. Some of that has to do with being on a dumpster fire team of late, but he looks a lot like Bernie Parent without the playoff brilliance.

I don't have Price ranked for the same reason I don't have Theodore ranked.

 

[MXD]

ImporterExporter : Everyone is raving about Nighbor!
Also ImporterExporter : There's some serious hyperbole in Montreal newspaper.

 

[MXD]

I don't have Price ranked for the same reason I don't have Theodore ranked.

They have.... absolutely not much in common (Price's 5th season being probably better than Theodore's 2nd best season), but they do have in common that I didn't even consider them for the list.

 

[The Macho King]

They have.... absolutely not much in common (Price's 5th season being probably better than Theodore's 2nd best season), but they do have in common that I didn't even consider them for the list.

Price has one season of amazing play. Theodore has one season of amazing play. Price probably has better seasons 2-5, but even then they're well within what you would consider normal bounds for a great but not that great goaltender.

Price is well behind the likes of Luongo and Lundquist in the post-lockout world for me. I have him edging Bob (because Bob is particularly awful in the playoffs), but the legend of Price got out of hand due to that one season + an Olympics where he faced like 10 shots a game.

Edit: I realize we probably don't need to go into detail here because I imagine he won't be on more than a handful of lists. So I can withdraw the more inflammatory statements w/r/t Price if that helps keep the discussion on track.