Line Combos: This team won't be weaklings.

[A1LeafNation]

We lost our softest forward, by definition we are "tougher"...

 

[Bullseye]

Tough isn't the right word but Holland, Winnik, Polak, Phaneuf, Panik will hit and grind - not one of them can fight but fighting has basically disappeared from the NHL - most teams will look more like this in terms of toughness.

Grinders:

Winnik, Lupul, Kadri, Panik, Holland, Beck, Polak, Phaneuf, Carrick.

Agitators but won't fight:

Komarov, Hunwick

Soft:

JVR, Bozak, P.A., Matthias, Maricin, Gardner, Rielly, Spaling, Archipelago.


The goal is puck possession and protection not fighting. The Leafs have lead the league in worst GA with tough teams and soft teams - no difference.

 

[LeafalCrusader]

Expecting hard working not so tough.

 

[senor martinez]

It's unbelievable that some people still parrot that useless fourth line as the reason for making the playoffs while completely ignoring the real reason was the 48 game schedule.

Mike Brown never played a playoff game for the Leafs, Orr and McLaren combined for 8 playoff games with 0 points, and I doubt either of them played over 4-5 minutes per game in the regular season let alone the playoffs.Don't get me wrong I'm a big fan of fighting and I think those guy's probably have a tonne of character but they're also kind of pointless in this day and age.
Edit: Orr actually looks like he averaged around 6:29 that year reg and post season, and McLaren had 7:46 of ice time in his one playoff game, still pretty inconsequential though.

Yet Carlyle, Orr, McLaren and Brown made the difference. They played the regular season and that was that. Enough for us. We won't be making the playoffs again for ages and haven't done so in 11 years so that season was real special. We played that tough to the bone edge game and still won. We was in the playoffs. Thanks to our tougher players like Carlyle, Orr, Brown and Frazer McLaren and Fraser.

Our other teams during these 11 years have been too soft and the worst.

Having these guys even in our lineup and playing 7 minutes was enough. Period. I know everything about hockey just like Cherry.

 

[Pookie]

Tough isn't the right word but Holland, Winnik, Polak, Phaneuf, Panik will hit and grind - not one of them can fight but fighting has basically disappeared from the NHL - most teams will look more like this in terms of toughness.

Grinders:

Winnik, Lupul, Kadri, Panik, Holland, Beck, Polak, Phaneuf, Carrick.

Agitators but won't fight:

Komarov, Hunwick

Soft:

JVR, Bozak, P.A., Matthias, Maricin, Gardner, Rielly, Spaling, Archipelago.


The goal is puck possession and protection not fighting. The Leafs have lead the league in worst GA with tough teams and soft teams - no difference.

To say fighting has disappeared from the NHL is an extreme statement. It hasn't. Teams have goons. Goons got playoff shifts regularly.

Some teams don't have goons but have sort of a hybrid like a Sill, who by the way was signed by another team.

Fighting teams make the playoffs (eg Calgary) and non fighting teams make the playoffs. Fighting teams miss the playoffs and non fighting teams, like ours, also miss the playoffs.

I find the fighting commentary in Toronto is almost done in setting up an excuse or self justification. Yeah we aren't tough but it (supposedly) doesn't matter any more. That's not true.

Let's call it what it is. A calculated decision to play a soft game. Not engage in standing up for yourself on most nights. Not attempting to intimidate. Most likely looking to the rules to protect players instead of the dressing room.

That's fine. They are also opting for skill. To win more shoot outs. Etc.

It's a choice though and that will be our brand of hockey. I personally enjoyed Vancouver - Calgary in the playoffs. Watched more of that series than I did the non contact final.

 

[Brock Radunske]

Our forwards are laughably soft. Who up front is tough to play against??

The only player on this team that can physically impose his will is Dion Phaneuf. People can hate on Phaneuf all they want, but he is the only guy on this roster that is truly tough to play against. This roster is very soft.

Dion has the physical tools, too bad he's too much like this guy...

 

[gravyface]

It's unbelievable that some people still parrot that useless fourth line as the reason for making the playoffs while completely ignoring the real reason was the 48 game schedule.

This is clearly a troll account you're quoting. Just FYI.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

I also think we should be tougher. This team will not be tough to play against. We do have Winnik Komarov, Polak, Kadri (is a dirty player in many ways though small). That's just not enough. We are not tough to play against right now. Phaneuf can play tough game too, but this is just not enough clearly. Many other teams have so many BIGGER players and tougher too.

Remember when we had McLaren, Mike Brown and Orr in the 4th line all of them at the same time. That was like two years ago. It's not that far away. Back then.... we made the playoffs and kicked some serious butt. Those rear ends were shaking like something back then. I was really excited and ready. So was we. We almost beat the boston bruins in seven games, in the playoffs. Beside that... we haven't even made into the playoffs during these 11 long years. Long years. That team was really special. And TOUGH and rough with those white puffs.

I did a little research on TOI for that playoff series. Orr played about 5 minutes in the series IIRC, and the rest of the players didn't play at all IIRC. I'm going from memory here, so numbers/details might not be precise, but the basic point certainly holds true.

This is typical. Even back then, the tough (fighters) guys ride the pine in the 3rd period, in tight games with a close score, and in the playoffs.

Now, most teams don't even bother putting face punchers on to the roster.

 

[Stephen23]

One thing you need to remember is that the team you see today will be vastly different from the team you see five years from now. A lot of these players are place holders so the kids can learn the right way on their own time. That is why we have a lot of one or two-year deals. One thing that can be assured is that our teams will play hard and compete. That will not be negotiable and will be required from Babcock/Keefe. Just sit back and enjoy the "pain". Just take comfort knowing that the kids are being brought up as they should and are learning to play the right way. My point is that don't get too caught up on if "this team" is or isn't tough, as a high percentage of this team is just temporary anyways.

 

[Mess]

Carlyle had this roster (minus Kessel essentially) with 45 points after 40 games [92 point pace for season] at mid season before his firing.

Babcock is a much better coach and Kessel was a black hole defensively as one of the leagues worst ES players. Kessel 25 goals on the season can be made up by the team.

Baring significant injuries, I'm realistically optimistic that we should see recognizable tangible improvement from last years 4th overall place finish.

 

[pheasant]

So what do people think the lines will look like this year if there are no more additions or subtractions (though I hope Bozak is shipped of to Timbuktu)
I hope we look something like this

JvR-Kadri-Panik
Lupul-Bozak-Pareanteau
Matthias-Holland-Komarov
Beck-Spaling-Winnik/Arcobello

After bozak gets traded, Holland and spalling get promotions while arcobello gets slid back in the middle and carrick is called up as the 13th forward. I know some people would want to see winnik on a higher line but with the amount (or lack thereof) of skill, all four lines should see high minutes thanks to the disappearance of the fourth line goons.

obvious D looking like

Gardiner-Phaneuf
Reilly-Polak
Marincin-Hunwick/Robidas

I have two voices in my head. One says:

I love the fact that young guys have to earn a roster spot. If Percy is no better than Hunwick and Marincin, then he doesn't get a spot. If Bailey can't do better than Arcobello and Beck, then he doesn't get a spot.

And the other is saying:

We need to hurry and dump guys like Bozak and Robidas. How can we get youth into the line-up with these guys taking up a roster spot? We need to move out vets so we have positions available to fill either with our own youth, waiver pickups, or cap dumps that came with a plus. We need more turnover.

 

[mcleex]

Look at the Habs the last few years. They were called "smurfs" their players were small and apparently soft as **** but would skate around the big bad Bruins and give them fits

The same Bruins team that would kick our ****ing ass every time we played them with our lineup of Orr and McLaren

 

[Primary Assist]

Babcock has a no fighting policy, at least he did with the Wings. We might see 1-2 fights all season, tops, and the days of the Leafs leading the league in fights are over. Sure it was fun watching Orr, McLaren and Fraser drop the mitts every game but that was 3 years ago, and all we have to show for it is the most heart-wrenching collapse in recent memory.

We're still rebuilding. I'm sure that our AAA management group is smart enough to know that we need tough and capable players to surround all our skill guys.

 

[ACC1224]

Babcock has a no fighting policy, at least he did with the Wings. We might see 1-2 fights all season, tops, and the days of the Leafs leading the league in fights are over. Sure it was fun watching Orr, McLaren and Fraser drop the mitts every game but that was 3 years ago, and all we have to show for it is the most heart-wrenching collapse in recent memory.

We're still rebuilding. I'm sure that our AAA management group is smart enough to know that we need tough and capable players to surround all our skill guys.

What does that mean?

 

[Pookie]

Look at the Habs the last few years. They were called "smurfs" their players were small and apparently soft as **** but would skate around the big bad Bruins and give them fits

The same Bruins team that would kick our ****ing ass every time we played them with our lineup of Orr and McLaren

Was that the year that LA won the Cup? The team that drafts big and pushes everyone around?

For every example of a soft team winning we can find examples where toughness has equated to success.

Look, the Leafs are making a conscious choice to be soft. That's fine. But let's not pretend that tough teams are outdated and that toughness as a strategy is out the window.

MCgrattan signed in Anaheim. Kassian and Prust changed teams. Sill signed elsewhere. Macleod and Boll still play.

The Sens and Habs are going to push us around. That's the inevitable fact.

For some that's fine as long as the Leafs win.

It's not what I enjoy but this is the direction of the Leafs.

 

[ACC1224]

Was that the year that LA won the Cup? The team that drafts big and pushes everyone around?

For every example of a soft team winning we can find examples where toughness has equated to success.

Look, the Leafs are making a conscious choice to be soft. That's fine. But let's not pretend that tough teams are outdated and that toughness as a strategy is out the window.

MCgrattan signed in Anaheim. Kassian and Prust changed teams. Sill signed elsewhere. Macleod and Boll still play.

The Sens and Habs are going to push us around. That's the inevitable fact.

For some that's fine as long as the Leafs win.

It's not what I enjoy but this is the direction of the Leafs.

I don't think that's accurate.

 

[Pookie]

I don't think that's accurate.

The debate about last year's cuddly soft bunch isn't a debate. That is fact.

So which players have they brought in with a penchant for being physical?

They let Sill go. Released Orr and McLaren.

?

 

[diceman934]

The debate about last year's cuddly soft bunch isn't a debate. That is fact.

So which players have they brought in with a penchant for being physical?

They let Sill go. Released Orr and McLaren.

?

I have no doubt we will be a tougher team to play against without any roster changes....

Tougher as a team does not mean that we will physical run teams out of the building, it means a us vs them mentality. When no one came to Dion's defense or even Dion defending him self when Staal shot a puck at him....that will not be tolerated again. You stick up collectively for each other.

Expectations have changed and it is team vs individual. Teams stick together and defend each others.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I have two voices in my head. One says:

I love the fact that young guys have to earn a roster spot. If Percy is no better than Hunwick and Marincin, then he doesn't get a spot. If Bailey can't do better than Arcobello and Beck, then he doesn't get a spot.

And the other is saying:

We need to hurry and dump guys like Bozak and Robidas. How can we get youth into the line-up with these guys taking up a roster spot? We need to move out vets so we have positions available to fill either with our own youth, waiver pickups, or cap dumps that came with a plus. We need more turnover.

Both voices are reasonable.

We want solid players with good character on the team to instill character, and to demand excellence from our prospects for them to make the team. We also want said players to have limited contracts without clauses so that once they lose out to younger competition, they are easy to move down the lineup/organization or send out by trade.

That is we want a Mathias who can be a good comparison for what Nylander needs to beat to take a roster spot, but when that happen we can move him any time either inside the organization or in a trade.

That's why the Lupul's are problems. They tie down a spot and allow is little flexibility, and we need that as we make the transformation.

 

[Pookie]

I have no doubt we will be a tougher team to play against without any roster changes....

Tougher as a team does not mean that we will physical run teams out of the building, it means a us vs them mentality. When no one came to Dion's defense or even Dion defending him self when Staal shot a puck at him....that will not be tolerated again. You stick up collectively for each other.

Expectations have changed and it is team vs individual. Teams stick together and defend each others.

Oh right. The whole "team tough" thing. Until I see us vs them in action you have the same core group minus Kessel. Who is going to defend Dion? Kadri? Bozak? Lupul? JVR?

The leafs will get pushed around and painfully by Ottawa and Montreal. No need to pretend otherwise. Like Detroit, overtime they will make the playoffs. All the anti - tough folks says that's what is important anyways.

Take pride in their softness instead of pretending there will be team toughness and pretending that there is no fighting in the nhl.

 

[ACC1224]

The debate about last year's cuddly soft bunch isn't a debate. That is fact.

So which players have they brought in with a penchant for being physical?

They let Sill go. Released Orr and McLaren.

?

They were soft because they didn't compete, not because of some effort by Management.

They aren't making a conscious choice to be soft, they are choosing to be skilled and hard working.

 

[theTTC]

Was that the year that LA won the Cup? The team that drafts big and pushes everyone around?

For every example of a soft team winning we can find examples where toughness has equated to success.

Look, the Leafs are making a conscious choice to be soft. That's fine. But let's not pretend that tough teams are outdated and that toughness as a strategy is out the window.

MCgrattan signed in Anaheim. Kassian and Prust changed teams. Sill signed elsewhere. Macleod and Boll still play.

The Sens and Habs are going to push us around. That's the inevitable fact.

For some that's fine as long as the Leafs win.

It's not what I enjoy but this is the direction of the Leafs.

Just gotta say I agree with 100%, and enjoy the eloquence of, your posts.

This is still a man's game. Leaf fans here are talking as if we're dressing Shanahan in his prime. Sorry, we're gonna get killed.

 

[Pookie]

They were soft because they didn't compete, not because of some effort by Management.

They aren't making a conscious choice to be soft, they are choosing to be skilled and hard working.

Yes they are choosing to be skilled and hardworking. Why is it so hard to acknowledge that by letting Sill go. By letting McLaren go. By signing players that don't fight that they are also choosing to remove that from their arsenal?

It's not bad. There are many ways to win. But call it what it will be, a soft team.

Why is that so hard to do?

 

[dballislife2]

kessel is the softest player in the nhl, we just got a lot tougher...we aint gonna score, but i hope we be a lot tougher to play against

 

[ACC1224]

Yes they are choosing to be skilled and hardworking. Why is it so hard to acknowledge that by letting Sill go. By letting McLaren go. By signing players that don't fight that they are also choosing to remove that from their arsenal?

It's not bad. There are many ways to win. But call it what it will be, a soft team.

Why is that so hard to do?

Because they aren't consciously trying to make the Team soft. Certainly they keep Kessel if they desire a soft Team, he may be the greatest soft player of all time.