The "We have competent management" appreciation thread

[Menzinger]

Watching the Shanahaplan unfold is the happiest I've been as a Leaf fan in over a decade.

We finically have a managment regime that understands that in the new NHL, the more draft picks a team has the better, that cap management is essential to team success, that skill > grit, that you can't fill major holes in a team via UFA, that stats can be useful in informing team decisions.

They've mostly done everything right so far - we just have to now sit back and watch the kids develop.

 

[Confucius]

I have no beef with anything this new management team has done. Great job so far, it's nice to see we aren't doing the same thing over and over again.

 

[Mess]

Going from incompetent management to competent management is always considered positive and move in the right direction.

We are and have seen both sides of that now in the past, and its so much nicer to be on the positive side of the competent management side going forward.

 

[666]

Going from incompetent management to competent management is always considered positive and move in the right direction.

We are and have seen both sides of that now in the past, and its so much nicer to be on the positive side of the competent management side going forward.

We're in last place. How is that competent? Why was a year wasted to have a fire sale? What is competent about that? Anybody can have a fire sale. We didn't even have a GM at last years draft. Is that competent? You have very low standards.

Now if the board gave someone permission to scorch the earth and you're happy with that, well that's kinda sad but at least I get it but selling assets at their lowest for other teams cap dumps and second rounders is not the definition of competent.

I suppose it's adequate since a monkey could do it while coming in last place. This management team is adequate not competent.

 

[nsleaf]

Proof will be in the pudding. But I like the direction they are going. Of course anything looks good compared to the recent past, so......
I look forward to the first setback reaction from HF board posters! This will be bumpy ride, and the destination may not be what we hope. Been a fan for 45 years.i

 

[cookie]

We're in last place. How is that competent? Why was a year wasted to have a fire sale? What is competent about that? Anybody can have a fire sale. We didn't even have a GM at last years draft. Is that competent? You have very low standards.

Now if the board gave someone permission to scorch the earth and you're happy with that, well that's kinda sad but at least I get it but selling assets at their lowest for other teams cap dumps and second rounders is not the definition of competent.

I suppose it's adequate since a monkey could do it while coming in last place. This management team is adequate not competent.

That's daft. This isn't the kind of business that sees teams turn their fortunes around over night, let alone a year. Your standards are so out of line, I don't even know where to begin.

 

[Leafidelity]

Lou knocked it out of the park stockpiling assets. Now we turn to Mark Hunter to do his part. If you look at his body of work in the last draft, it looks very promising on that front.

So far though, they're starting a top notch rebuild

 

[Menzinger]

We're in last place. How is that competent? Why was a year wasted to have a fire sale? What is competent about that? Anybody can have a fire sale. We didn't even have a GM at last years draft. Is that competent? You have very low standards.

Now if the board gave someone permission to scorch the earth and you're happy with that, well that's kinda sad but at least I get it but selling assets at their lowest for other teams cap dumps and second rounders is not the definition of competent.

I suppose it's adequate since a monkey could do it while coming in last place. This management team is adequate not competent.

The a leafs had three management regimes that tried to rebuild the way you are suggesting - tried do compete as hard as they can every year, tried to bring in UFAs and make big trades to be competitive and where did that get the team?

You say anyone can tear down a team - sure but there's a smart way to do it. The Leafs have considerably more draft picks than the Oilers had when they started their rebuild.

 

[leafs in five]

adequate and competent are pretty similar concepts 666

second synonym here for example http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/competent

 

[Stephen]

I don't remember them having a scorched earth sale like we are. They drafted Ben in 07. They lost Richards in 10, I believe, might be 11. They traded for Seguin in 13(who already played a few season in the NHL). I don't see the resemblance?

And even they, if I remember correctly, missed a few season before they made a single playoffs and then they missed again.

The 2012-13 Dallas Stars had Loui Eriksson, Jaromir Jagr, Derek Roy, Michael Ryder, Brenden Morrow on their roster who were not there by the start of the 2013-14 season. Then they got rid of Ray Whitney and Stephane Robidas the year after.

 

[Faltorvo]

The 2012-13 Dallas Stars had Loui Eriksson, Jaromir Jagr, Derek Roy, Michael Ryder, Brenden Morrow on their roster who were not there by the start of the 2013-14 season. Then they got rid of Ray Whitney and Stephane Robidas the year after.

oh Stephen stop bringing facts into this

you will just confuse folks

 

[Warden of the North]

After watching Lou work for the last 6 months its become remarkably clear how terrible a GM Nonis was.

 

[Judas Tavares]

We're in last place. How is that competent? Why was a year wasted to have a fire sale? What is competent about that? Anybody can have a fire sale. We didn't even have a GM at last years draft. Is that competent? You have very low standards.

Now if the board gave someone permission to scorch the earth and you're happy with that, well that's kinda sad but at least I get it but selling assets at their lowest for other teams cap dumps and second rounders is not the definition of competent.

I suppose it's adequate since a monkey could do it while coming in last place. This management team is adequate not competent.

Do you understand the new landscape of the NHL? This isn't 1996 anymore. You may want to do some research on how the NHL works these days, whether you like how things happen or not, this is the reality.

Admit it, you would have loved to trade for an aging Eric Staal.

 

[666]

The a leafs had three management regimes that tried to rebuild the way you are suggesting - tried do compete as hard as they can every year, tried to bring in UFAs and make big trades to be competitive and where did that get the team?

The problem with the previous regimes is that they traded futures away. That's not how you do it.

You say anyone can tear down a team - sure but there's a smart way to do it. The Leafs have considerably more draft picks than the Oilers had when they started their rebuild.

It's not the number of picks that you have it's how high that they are and anything out of the top 15 or so is a crap shoot. The smart way to do it is to accumulate assets with value. Second round picks are a crap shoot. We trade assets for second rounders just creating huge holes. As crappy as Kessel, Phanuef and Reimer etc were they were still first liners. You can't fill those holes with second round picks. This organization is taking a massive gamble that they will fill those holes by getting lucky in the draft. The alternative is to use all the freed cap space for UFA's but the people around here think we've tried that. This concept of trading assets for second rounders and later is extremely risky.

Do you understand the new landscape of the NHL? This isn't 1996 anymore. You may want to do some research on how the NHL works these days, whether you like how things happen or not, this is the reality.

Admit it, you would have loved to trade for an aging Eric Staal.

NO! Because it would have cost futures. For the Rangers it might make sense if they are going for it but I don't know enough about their farm.

But I do know that it is going to take a long time to fill all of the holes that we are creating and it is very unlikely that we will win lotteries or get lucky with a bunch of second round picks. It's simple math.

 

[Dough72]

What teams have turned it around in 2 years after trading away the whole team? And how often does it happen? I do believe we will have a decent top 6 forward group in the next 2-3 years, but I have no clue where we are getting a goalie from or how we are filling out our top 4 D. Kids we drafted last year, outside of Marner, don't look like they will be ready for at least 2 years. The kids we draft this year, outside the first round, will probably take the regular route of 3+ years to contribute in the NHL.

We don't have any high end D prospects right now and our goalies are questionable. And the fun part is that D take the longest to be NHL ready.

not sure about "turned around" but I hope they are nowhere near last place by 2017/18. And if they still are in 2018/19 the atmosphere around the team will be toxic. No thanks.

I expect them to sign free agents soon. If not this off-season then next. I think it would be a waste not to, considering it is one of Toronto's biggest advantages over other teams

it would mean the end of "tanking", but not necessarily the rebuild and definitely not some kind of return to the burke era since burke never rebuilt at all. Shanahan already has one top5 overall pick, another top 5 overall equivalent, another top5 overall coming up shortly, and another top5 overall possibly(likely) in next year's draft. Even though it wasn't always intentional, that would be 4 years worth of tanking acquisitions

they can keep adding reclamation projects to trade for extra mid round picks, since there seem to be enough teams out there dumb enough to give us their 2nd rounders, but they shouldn't keep going years and years avoiding good free agents to supplement their already impressive young talent pool. It's a waste of a huge asset for Toronto.

 

[CorySchneids]

It's quite refreshing to see this type of thread. As a Canucks fan, I'd give up a few assets for competent management. Growing up in Toronto I understand the embarrassment that has been Toronto GMs. It's been a treat to watch Lou and company work.

 

[leafs in five]

After watching Lou work for the last 6 months its become remarkably clear how terrible a GM Nonis was.

it was pretty clear by september 2013

 

[Sonny21]

Its the first management group we've had through the entire lockout tenure that could see beyond the next few months.

JFJ, Burke, and Nonis all desperately flailed around spinning their wheels trying to make the playoffs every season at all costs. Regularly letting valuable pending UFAs walk for zero value, regularly trading picks and in some cases very high picks for NHLers that didn't remotely remotely remotely put us close to contention, etc.

These guys have VISION. They are aggressively restructuring our long-term cap, our farm system, etc. This year we're struggling, next year we'll very likely struggle, but the future looks very bright. And guess what? Had we stuck with Kessel, Phaneuf, etc, we would have struggled anyways! So short-term, we're barely doing anyworse. We finished bottom 10 in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2014, and 2015 with Kessel/Phaneuf. Great vision Burke/Nonis, glad you're gone.

Might not take a genius, but it's been blatantly obvious for 10 years that the Leafs needed to aggressively rebuild through the draft, and they're the first ones to do it.

Plus when you judge many of the moves, they look like good value moves. Signing Babcock? Great! Polak for two 2nds? Great! Phaneuf moved with zero salary retained? Great! etc.

Sure, they still need to draft well and not blow their load in free agency on useless depth players (e.g. Clarkson/Komi type of contracts), but so far everything they've done indicates they're doing a great job.

Couldn't have said it any better

 

[rrc1967]

wow! The current leaf management led by _(insert name here) _ is so much better than ___(insert loser name here)___ not to mention __(insert should be tarred and feathered name here)___ !!

I'm so excited by the future of this team, these prospects are sure to change the tide: ___copy and paste list from hockeyfutures here___!

Rinse and repeat every 3-5 years in TML land.

While building through the draft MAY work. it also may not. the management's competency won't be known for at least 3-5 years from now when the pieces are assembled into a cohesive team that works.

People act as if building through the draft is a sure way of getting from point A to B. Maybe. It may not either.

and even then, it just may not have that magic, luck, and skill, tenacity to win it all, and just remain one of 5-10 teams that make noise every year but ultimately accomplish nothing.

We could be a Chicago, we also could be a St Louis, or a San Jose.

Not to mention the board could derail all these plans, especially if the leafs brand and tv ratings continue to suffer.

 

[rrc1967]

Buddy, Are you feeling okay???

We are not closer to EDM... Our Marlies are ahead of the Oilers.

Man you need to get some fresh air.
Get some tickets and watch the Marlies.

Are you in any way related to Simmons or Feschuk?

are you for real?

you take edmonton's under 21 players against toronto's and get back to me.

 

[rrc1967]

You are right that Chicago had cheap owners, but they still TANKED!!!

2003-2004 Tanked
2004-2005 Tanked
2005-2006 Tanked
2006-2007 Sucked but started to Compete

You might have been fooled, but not I

Signing Havlat was after the Core was drafted Minus KANE.

Which was MY POINT!!!!!

I didn't call you a TROLL, just saying a devil's advocate is WORSE.

Those trades as you said were to prove that CHI was competing is actually proof that they were tanking.

The Leafs are doing better than what CHI management was doing.
Chicago had more LUCK than competent MGMNT.

Chicago Tanked HARD. You can choose not to believe that.
It doesn't matter.

666 was right. you do know what the definition of tanked is ..right? intentionally designing the team so that they will capture a high draft pick. Chicago really didn't.

Chicago retooled really - and got lucky with the lottery.

like the poster stated, you can really get a sense for management's position about the trades they make, which you ignored.

 

[leafs in five]

People act as if building through the draft is a sure way of getting from point A to B. Maybe. It may not either.

and even then, it just may not have that magic, luck, and skill, tenacity to win it all, and just remain one of 5-10 teams that make noise every year but ultimately accomplish nothing.

We could be a Chicago, we also could be a St Louis, or a San Jose.

yeah this is life though right? you might work hard and make sacrifices and follow a plan and still never "succeed" where success is a pro championship or gold medal or nobel prize. doesn't mean that having no plan and making decisions on a whim according to gut feelings or assumptions that everything will get better with time is a better way to go.

 

[Faltorvo]

After watching Lou work for the last 6 months its become remarkably clear how terrible a GM Nonis was.

Oh for fact

but i'll make it a deadly duo of Burke/Nonis , utterly incompetent.

 

[CBinTokyo]

We're in last place. How is that competent? Why was a year wasted to have a fire sale? What is competent about that? Anybody can have a fire sale. We didn't even have a GM at last years draft. Is that competent? You have very low standards.

Now if the board gave someone permission to scorch the earth and you're happy with that, well that's kinda sad but at least I get it but selling assets at their lowest for other teams cap dumps and second rounders is not the definition of competent.

I suppose it's adequate since a monkey could do it while coming in last place. This management team is adequate not competent.

I'll bite, and even try to wear your condescending tone for a moment

Let me splain somethin to ya.

Companies have a board of directors.

You don't just come into to a new company and say, "Hey I know what to do! I read on HF boards we need a total rebuild!" If you do any competent board will ask you what you base the opinion on and want data to back it up.

What you do instead is learn the real issues, create a plan to resolve the issues and get the backing of the stakeholders. This takes time and is what Shanahan did. From there it becomes execution of the plan.

Hiring a competent management team takes time. Having no GM at the draft didn't seem to hurt us. Which is preferred, no GM at the draft, or the wrong GM just for the draft.

What is your baseline for competence? 9th place? A Cup in the first year of a rebuild? Increased revenues? Being in second last place during a tear down? You've told us that to you, last place is incompetent, but haven't told us what competency in a rebuild looks like. Care to Splain that to me? If you can show us what a competent rebuild looks like, it will go a long way in showing how this team is not meeting those expectations.

Restructuring takes time and the first step of maximizing value for assets you have to release in order to restructure takes skill. In my opinion the tear down is being done skillfully. The management team has shown competence for the tear down. They aren7t looking for quick fixes. They are getting value for rentals, they are getting what they can for pieces that have to go and then maximizing value of cap space by taking on contracts for futures. To me this is competent.

They have yet to show competence for the rebuild, but that is what the next few years will tell us. Drafting, developing and icing a winning product is the goal, but it certainly can't be expected to happen over night. Just look at the Hawks, they certainly took some time and got lucky. But being lucky is easier if you have skill and competency behind it.

 

[Daisy Jane]

wow! The current leaf management led by _(insert name here) _ is so much better than ___(insert loser name here)___ not to mention __(insert should be tarred and feathered name here)___ !!

I'm so excited by the future of this team, these prospects are sure to change the tide: ___copy and paste list from hockeyfutures here___!

Rinse and repeat every 3-5 years in TML land.

While building through the draft MAY work. it also may not. the management's competency won't be known for at least 3-5 years from now when the pieces are assembled into a cohesive team that works.

People act as if building through the draft is a sure way of getting from point A to B. Maybe. It may not either.

and even then, it just may not have that magic, luck, and skill, tenacity to win it all, and just remain one of 5-10 teams that make noise every year but ultimately accomplish nothing.

We could be a Chicago, we also could be a St Louis, or a San Jose.

Not to mention the board could derail all these plans, especially if the leafs brand and tv ratings continue to suffer.

St Louis & San Jose also had some strong teams. Being good (or even "great") doesn't guarantee you a cup - but it gets you on that path. (I'll throw in Anaheim in as well). A lot of things have to go well - I do think Luck gets ignored a lot in sports. They have (or had - I don't know their structures right now) better/stronger development depth than we had ever in the last 10 years - even with having some flame outs. One summer I had asked "Would you be a San Jose (and always challenge for a cup) - or would you want to be a Carolina (win, but then always been near the bottom of the league for almost 10ish years)." we've been neither.

Building through the draft (and development) is a part- and I would argue with the salary cap as it is right now - it's one of the stronger tiers in either way you want to implement it. If you want to use it to support your team - or if you want to use it as a weapon (like the Rangers) - to help supplement your current team. If you suck at drafting - you don't get anywhere. Period.

the other two arms - is trading and signing

all three of which - we sucked at it. We were semi- better at drafting under JFJ - but he sucked at trades and signing contracts. Burke was quasi good at trading - but he sucked at signing contracts (for the most part) and drafting for the most part. Nonis really sucked at all three.


we don't know how the drafting will be for the Leafs - but for me personally - I've never heard the Leafs's prospect pool ever raved about by other people outside the fanbase before. so the prospect looks good, we'll have to see how it translates on the ice (and I think ultimately everyone knows that, even if there is a lot of air pumping)

but the capologist is seriously earning his pennies, by weaving in and out of the CBA. JFJ didn't have one (that I know of) and Loiselle s-u-c-k-e-d at it.

anyway. as I've said. I think you can totally look at things as a whole (which some we'll still have to see) as well as day to day things and judge appropriately.