Blue Jays Discussion: The trade deadline approaches (Tue, Aug 2 at 6pm ET/3pm PT) and the market is taking shape

[McFly2544]

Confidentiality of what? His current vaccine status is already known, and confidentiality on if he is getting vaccinated is kind of ridiculous since it would be self-evident the moment he steps into Canada

You can’t openly discuss a players vaccination status

notice how other teams don’t openly say anything until they put a player on the restrictive list

yes, it becomes self evident, but doesn’t mean management can openly discuss it

 

[MS]

I'm not understanding why White isn't here if Stripling is on the IL.

Who is starting in Stripling's spot? They just traded the other 5th starter option in Castillo.

 

[Da Cool Rula]

I'm not understanding why White isn't here if Stripling is on the IL.

Who is starting in Stripling's spot? They just traded the other 5th starter option in Castillo.

I think its just fir a game or two till he gets here. Need to have pitchrrs in lineup. Could be wrong though.

 

[Bjindaho]

I'm not understanding why White isn't here if Stripling is on the IL.

Who is starting in Stripling's spot? They just traded the other 5th starter option in Castillo.

You know the answer is Casey Lawrence if we need one.

I think its just fir a game or two till he gets here. Need to have pitchrrs in lineup. Could be wrong though.

I believe that he has to be down 10 days if he is optioned unless we do an emergency recall.

 

[Da Cool Rula]

You know the answer is Casey Lawrence if we need one.


I believe that he has to be down 10 days if he is optioned unless we do an emergency recall.

Oh ok thx

 

[Kurtz]

What about in the winter? Would you empty the farm system for Ohtani? I guess pending what the Jays do in the playoffs, but theoretically would you?

I absolutely would. I don't think Shapkins will unless they can get a commitment from Ohtani to re-up...and I wager he'd rather go to the other LA club or New York.

...the elephant in the room though is that we'll almost certainly have to deal Moreno anyway, because it's very hard to imagine him beating out Kirk for the starting C spot.

 

[Bjindaho]

I absolutely would. I don't think Shapkins will unless they can get a commitment from Ohtani to re-up...and I wager he'd rather go to the other LA club or New York.

...the elephant in the room though is that we'll almost certainly have to deal Moreno anyway, because it's very hard to imagine him beating out Kirk for the starting C spot.

I think that I would take that risk if need be. Honestly, if Kirk has more value, I'd be willing to wager on Moreno.

 

[BertCorbeau]

I absolutely would. I don't think Shapkins will unless they can get a commitment from Ohtani to re-up...and I wager he'd rather go to the other LA club or New York.

...the elephant in the room though is that we'll almost certainly have to deal Moreno anyway, because it's very hard to imagine him beating out Kirk for the starting C spot.

Ohtani’s an interesting one because you’re committing him to DH, which means less rest time for Vladdy and Springer. Also could mean the same thing for Kirk is he stays with the team. I assume one of Moreno, Kirk, or Jansen is dealt.

I mean it’s a good problem to have because Ohtani is so good, but it does pose some lineup questions.

I would be very tempted to pursue Ohtani though.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

I absolutely would. I don't think Shapkins will unless they can get a commitment from Ohtani to re-up...and I wager he'd rather go to the other LA club or New York.

...the elephant in the room though is that we'll almost certainly have to deal Moreno anyway, because it's very hard to imagine him beating out Kirk for the starting C spot.

I disagree with this.

Long term, Kirk is going to be occupying the DH slot far more than he's catching. I can think of very few catchers that started every day long term with his body type.

Moreno is a 4 tool, athletic catcher with a high baseball IQ and the best C arm in the org. If he can add a bit of power to his game, his hitting tool should be very good.

I would absolutely move Kirk/Jansen before I move Moreno, but only once Moreno is ready.

 

[MS]

You know the answer is Casey Lawrence if we need one.

And starting Casey Lawrence and his ERA of 8 over a guy who has dropped a 3.35 ERA in 8 starts in June-July makes sense for a contending team how?

 

[Bjindaho]

And starting Casey Lawrence and his ERA of 8 over a guy who has dropped a 3.35 ERA in 8 starts in June-July makes sense for a contending team how?

Nothing about the move made sense

 

[Kurtz]

I disagree with this.

Long term, Kirk is going to be occupying the DH slot far more than he's catching. I can think of very few catchers that started every day long term with his body type.

Moreno is a 4 tool, athletic catcher with a high baseball IQ and the best C arm in the org. If he can add a bit of power to his game, his hitting tool should be very good.

I would absolutely move Kirk/Jansen before I move Moreno, but only once Moreno is ready.

You know, I felt the same way last year, but now feel a bit differently about Kirk's long-term prospects at C.

He came into the season having lost some weight. He throws guys out at slightly better than league average. His framing...and I don't have stats on this...but just watching him, his framing looks elite. And off course he's already an all-star and one of the best Cs in the game at 23.

I think he's our long-term C.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Royals send Whit Merrifield to Blue Jays for 2 players | Globalnews.ca

KANSAS CITY, Mo. (AP) — Whit Merrifield said last month he might be willing to get vaccinated against COVID-19 if it meant playing for a team in contention, even though he had refused to get the shot while playing for the last-place Kansas City Royals.

globalnews.ca

This trade would be an epic fail if Atkins couldn't convince him to get the jab.

Here's hoping he will be in the lineup Aug 12th vs CLE.

Unless the Royals told him he was being traded to an AL East team 4 days before the trade deadline and he went and got the J&J vaccine he won't be there for the first home series and you need to wait 14 days and he was traded 10 days before the 12th

You know the answer is Casey Lawrence if we need one.


I believe that he has to be down 10 days if he is optioned unless we do an emergency recall.

That optioning of White had me curious. Part of me hopes they had to use that wording to assign him but the optioning is retroactive to when the Dodgers did it because he was in AAA for them. The only other way to phrase it would be "Jays assign him to AAA Buffalo".

Normally there would have to be a 10 day wait unless it's a reciprocal recall to a IL stint. Hoping the rules are different when a player was in AAA for another team on option and then gets traded and it sent to AAA again.

The Dodgers optioned him on July 27th so if that were the case he could be recalled again on August 6th which should be time enough to take Stripling's next start. Them trading for him and then using Lawrence to fill an injury hole would be completely moronic

 

[Bjindaho]

You know, I felt the same way last year, but now feel a bit differently about Kirk's long-term prospects at C.

He came into the season having lost some weight. He throws guys out at slightly better than league average. His framing...and I don't have stats on this...but just watching him, his framing looks elite. And off course he's already an all-star and one of the best Cs in the game at 23.

I think he's our long-term C.

8th overall: Major League Leaderboards » 2022 » Catchers » Fielding Statistics | FanGraphs Baseball

 

[barilko05]

I think the obvious precedent for a guy built like Kirk to have a long, prosperous career as MOSTLY a catcher was maybe Yogi Berra. But vastly different eras, of course. No DH, shorter sked, and guys back then trained on hot dogs and pretzels...oh, and weightlifting...8 ounces at time.

 

[Bjindaho]

Unless the Royals told him he was being traded to an AL East team 4 days before the trade deadline and he went and got the J&J vaccine he won't be there for the first home series and you need to wait 14 days and he was traded 10 days before the 12th



That optioning of White had me curious. Part of me hopes they had to use that wording to assign him but the optioning is retroactive to when the Dodgers did it because he was in AAA for them. The only other way to phrase it would be "Jays assign him to AAA Buffalo".

Normally there would have to be a 10 day wait unless it's a reciprocal recall to a IL stint. Hoping the rules are different when a player was in AAA for another team on option and then gets traded and it sent to AAA again.

The Dodgers optioned him on July 27th so if that were the case he could be recalled again on August 6th which should be time enough to take Stripling's next start. Them trading for him and then using Lawrence to fill an injury hole would be completely moronic

It took a while but:
NOTE: If a player is acquired in a trade and is optioned to the minors by his new club within 24 hours, the player can be recalled from the Optional Assignment at any time without restriction, but if a player on Optional Assignment to the minors is claimed off waivers and is then optioned to the minors by his new club, the ten-day limit (for "position players") or 15 day limit (for "pitchers" and for "two-way players") does apply. So as far as the ten-day ot 15-day limits are concerned, there is a distinction made between acquiring a player in a trade and claiming a player off waivers.

https://www.thecubreporter.com/book/export/html/3523

 

[Canada4Gold]

Well played sir. You made me laugh

It took a while but:
NOTE: If a player is acquired in a trade and is optioned to the minors by his new club within 24 hours, the player can be recalled from the Optional Assignment at any time without restriction, but if a player on Optional Assignment to the minors is claimed off waivers and is then optioned to the minors by his new club, the ten-day limit (for "position players") or 15 day limit (for "pitchers" and for "two-way players") does apply. So as far as the ten-day ot 15-day limits are concerned, there is a distinction made between acquiring a player in a trade and claiming a player off waivers.

https://www.thecubreporter.com/book/export/html/3523

So we're good to recall White tomorrow then if we wanted to? That's good news. It all makes sense now, thanks

 

[Jojalu]

Doesnt say much about their drafting then, eh?

It does. Baseball more than any sport is near impossible to project. Draft for potential and use that potential as leverage yo acquire MLB talent now.

I remember the overblown reaction to AA unloading our entire farm system and as it turned out only Boyd amounted to anything.

From Juco to D1 to Low A to eventually the MLB there is such a difference in how good they are. An 18 year old coming out of high school can run a 6.2, have 100 EV and throw 94 from CF and put on a show in BP bit never learn to play. He will still always garner more attlention than the steady eddie who is a good basball player but has no MLB tools

 

[metafour]

Do you notice a pattern where team x gets a player for a bunch of prospects (mostly high-A I believe) but supposedly for us to get that same player, a prospect package (including arguably the #1 prospect in baseball) would not be enough and we'd have to include a bunch of young, producing major league stars too?

How does that work exactly?

It works because the Jays don't have anything in the minors to come close to that Padres package. That is why the Jays would have needed to include from their current MLB-pool of players.

The problem is that you seem to be under the impression that we have the sheer prospects to interest the Nats. If you look at what they got back from the Padres, all 5 of those players have legitimate All-Star ceilings. At least 2 of them have superstar type ceiling. When a team trades a player like Soto, they're looking for a certain type/profile of players in return.

MacKenzie Gore: Former #2 prospect in all of baseball. Was pitching like a future top-of-the rotation starter before his elbow flared up,

CJ Abrams: ~Top 25 prospect. Near MLB ready. Rough MLB debut but he's still just 21 years old. Needs to add strength/size, but he has the frame to do it. Was a ~Top 5 prospect just a year ago.

Robert Hassell: ~Top 25 prospect. Plays an elite position well (CF). Very high floor because he does everything well with no holes in his game, but he still has a star ceiling as well because he's a CF who can hit.

James Wood: MVP-caliber upside and guy who could be a ~Top 10 prospect in a year's time. Freakish tools and he's currently hitting and flashing all of them. Also plays CF and somehow possesses ~60 speed at 6'7 240.

Jarlin Susana: Top-of-the-rotation upside at just 18 years old with a triple-digit FB on a 6'6 frame.

That is probably the single biggest pool of prospects ever traded together. Even the #5 guy in the package (Susana) is a guy that a team would normally be reluctant to give up.

Again, the Jays simply don't have anything to match that. I would happily trade Orelvis for James Wood yesterday if it was on the table. What exactly are you going to give the Nats to sway them away from that package? Moreno and Tiedemann are two guys, but the issue is that Orelvis Martinez has basically no floor and is currently sporting a ~.200 BA with few walks and lots of strikeouts - that just isn't going to help you headline a deal of this magnitude because his problems are severe.

So the Nats want elite upside (obviously), but you're hard-pressed to list more than 2 guys from the Jays that can offer that. The Padres gave them 5 such players. Orelvis Martinez has that type of upside if he somehow revamps pretty much everything about how he currently hits.

 

[CherryToke]

And starting Casey Lawrence and his ERA of 8 over a guy who has dropped a 3.35 ERA in 8 starts in June-July makes sense for a contending team how?

Same GM that re-signed Montoyo to an extension on April fools day.

Same GM that tries to improve the team by picking up scraps from actual contenders..

Same GM that spins every one of his dumpster diving garbage moves as a positive thinking that Canadians don't know baseball.

 

[Kurtz]

It works because the Jays don't have anything in the minors to come close to that Padres package. That is why the Jays would have needed to include from their current MLB-pool of players.

The problem is that you seem to be under the impression that we have the sheer prospects to interest the Nats. If you look at what they got back from the Padres, all 5 of those players have legitimate All-Star ceilings. At least 2 of them have superstar type ceiling. When a team trades a player like Soto, they're looking for a certain type/profile of players in return.

MacKenzie Gore: Former #2 prospect in all of baseball. Was pitching like a future top-of-the rotation starter before his elbow flared up,

CJ Abrams: ~Top 25 prospect. Near MLB ready. Rough MLB debut but he's still just 21 years old. Needs to add strength/size, but he has the frame to do it. Was a ~Top 5 prospect just a year ago.

Robert Hassell: ~Top 25 prospect. Plays an elite position well (CF). Very high floor because he does everything well with no holes in his game, but he still has a star ceiling as well because he's a CF who can hit.

James Wood: MVP-caliber upside and guy who could be a ~Top 10 prospect in a year's time. Freakish tools and he's currently hitting and flashing all of them. Also plays CF and somehow possesses ~60 speed at 6'7 240.

Jarlin Susana: Top-of-the-rotation upside at just 18 years old with a triple-digit FB on a 6'6 frame.

That is probably the single biggest pool of prospects ever traded together. Even the #5 guy in the package (Susana) is a guy that a team would normally be reluctant to give up.

Again, the Jays simply don't have anything to match that. I would happily trade Orelvis for James Wood yesterday if it was on the table. What exactly are you going to give the Nats to sway them away from that package? Moreno and Tiedemann are two guys, but the issue is that Orelvis Martinez has basically no floor and is currently sporting a ~.200 BA with few walks and lots of strikeouts - that just isn't going to help you headline a deal of this magnitude because his problems are severe.

So the Nats want elite upside (obviously), but you're hard-pressed to list more than 2 guys from the Jays that can offer that. The Padres gave them 5 such players. Orelvis Martinez has that type of upside if he somehow revamps pretty much everything about how he currently hits.

Fair point - that's 5 top prospects (even if Gore is starting to swim dangerously close to Pearson waters with all of his injuries), whereas our system probably only has 3 of those type of guys (even though Moreno should be more valuable than any of the SDP guys).

Keep in mind though that SDP also got Josh Bell in the deal, and were also originally salary dumping Hosmer. That has to balance the values at least partially.

 

[CherryToke]

Fire Shitkins

 

[metafour]

Fair point - that's 5 top prospects (even if Gore is starting to swim dangerously close to Pearson waters with all of his injuries), whereas our system probably only has 3 of those type of guys (even though Moreno should be more valuable than any of the SDP guys).

Keep in mind though that SDP also got Josh Bell in the deal, and were also originally salary dumping Hosmer. That has to balance the values at least partially.

Right, but in a trade like this for a superstar like Soto, you're not going to convince them to take a lesser package under the pretense that they get to keep Josh Bell. If you're trading Soto, the idea is to swing for the fences. That is exactly what they did. There is nothing the Jays can do about that unless they want to expose from the current MLB roster.

On Gore v. Pearson - even though the new injury concern on Gore is real, he still has a starter's repertoire and actually started to prove it this season. Pearson has little value right now because it's hard to imagine that he's anything more than a very good reliever, and one that is always hurt at that. It's really unfortunate, but it is what it is.

 

[phillipmike]

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Shatikins needs firing if we miss the post season by a game again.

Lamest trade deadline in years.

and they've been lame for a while now.