GDT: The SS Kessel has Landed: Pens vs Hurricanes

[cajal]

Everyone hopes Kunitz can be an effective 3rd wheel (puck retriever/forechecker/fast skater) on the top line. Well, everyone who doesn't have some personal hatred of the guy - and I don't see many of those sorts of opinions on here.

If he can't be that, find someone who can. I don't care who replaces him. The frustration from many (including me) is based on the fact that he will probably be on the top line even if he can't be that sort of player.

The Pens have been evaluating players on their past rather than present value for quite some time. Who knows where it comes from (front office, coach, players, combination), but that has been their MO recently. Until they move players up and down the lineup based on performance (and I don't mean rookies or players who have yet to establish themselves - I'm talking about formerly top line vets/franchise favorites here) there's no reason to think that will change.

Make changes when things don't work, that's all anyone can ask.
If Kunitz works and looks like he's not breaking down as the season progresses, fantastic.

IMO, of course.

 

[Shady Machine]

It's too bad Fehr isn't left handed, because I think he could be a good fit with Crosby-Kessel.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

IMO, of course.

Yeah, no... that's the right answer. Not just your opinion.

Nobody WANTS Kunitz to fall flat on his face and fail so we can, like... laugh at him or something. It's just that people seem willingly blind to what has been going on for years... not "half a season" or whatever.

****... I hope he DOES make me look dumb and turns in a terrific season -- great for the team! But that seems like extremely wishful thinking. Why bank on it?

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's too bad Fehr isn't left handed, because I think he could be a good fit with Crosby-Kessel.

Can he play LW at all? I remember MJ mentioned him over the summer as a top-6 candidate, so I imagine he is able to play LW. He'd be by far the best option to play on that line if he can play LW. He brings basically everything Kessel lacks (grit and defensive play mainly) and he's not incompetent offensively. I just don't see them moving another RW to LW when we're pretty crowded on LW already.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Kunitz does need to be a wrecking ball to offset the kind of ineptitude he had with the puck over the second half of the year. He was a line killer.

But you're lumping last season with this season.

The two are not one in the same. This season hasn't been written yet. I don't believe Kunitz has to be the wrecking ball regularly. It's like anything else, you pick your spots when they present themselves. But if he is more worried about getting the hit in over getting the puck for a shot or pass to either 87/81 when the hit isn't necessary, that is also bad.

The facts are, they can all score and dish the puck. Two of the three being better, but passing up on puck control for a hit defeats the purpose of scoring they seem to have had trouble with. I'm not going to use last year as the base for this one. Not if the main conflict of interest hasn't been in his staple game in years, anyways.

 

[Shady Machine]

Can he play LW at all? I remember MJ mentioned him over the summer as a top-6 candidate, so I imagine he is able to play LW. He'd be by far the best option to play on that line if he can play LW. He brings basically everything Kessel lacks (grit and defensive play mainly) and he's not incompetent offensively. I just don't see them moving another RW to LW when we're pretty crowded on LW already.

I honestly don't know. I thought he played center and right wing.

 

[Shady Machine]

But you're lumping last season with this season.

The two are not one in the same. This season hasn't been written yet. I don't believe Kunitz has to be the wrecking ball regularly. It's like anything else, you pick your spots when they present themselves. But if he is more worried about getting the hit in over getting the puck for a shot or pass to either 87/81 when the hit isn't necessary, that is also bad.

The facts are, they can all score and dish the puck. Two of the three being better, but passing up on puck control for a hit defeats the purpose of scoring they seem to have had trouble with. I'm not going to use last year as the base for this one. Not if the main conflict of interest hasn't been in his staple game in years, anyways.

So we should just ignore the recent past and focus on what he did yesteryear when making lineup decisions?

I mean if he legitimately earns the job over everyone else, then give it to him. I just don't think MJ intends on giving all the other candidates a legit shot.

 

[DoktorZaius]

I don't see Bennett working out at 1LW. Crosby-Kessel play the game at such a rapid rate that it'd be difficult for him to keep up with bang-bang pass plays on his backhand. I suspect Perron and then Plotnikov are going to make the most sense on the left side in the top 6, with Bennett getting 3RW.

If Kunitz (washed up though he is) ends up being 1LW, I wouldn't mind seeing a beastly 3rd line of Perron-Bonino-Bennett. Would be interesting to see what they can do.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

The Pens org does things ass backwards, then they scratch their heads when **** always blows up in their face at the end of the year.

Their four most skilled wingers are Kessel, Perron, BB, and Hornqvist. So instead of doing the obvious:

Perron Crosby Kessel
BB Malkin Hornqvist

... they have to cater to Kunitz and Dupuis because they are swell guys and did this or that a couple of years ago. It doesn't matter that Kunitz is declining and Dupuis is 35 with major health issues, the org wants them to play big roles and it's so ****ing tiresome.

That's not how teams progress. There is zero chance an org like the Hawks would put those two in major roles at this point. I bet the Hawks find room and big roles for their new crop of young kids this season though and get rewarded for it.

In the end, where is the risk if Perron and BB don't work out? Then slide Kunitz/Dupuis up. I know anything can happen for opening night, but I doubt I'd find one sucker to bet me real money that at least one of Kunitz or Dupuis aren't in the top six that night.

It's just how this org works, and until they move on, they will never progress IMHO.

That doesn't necessarily mean those four players should be on the top two lines, it's much more about fit, especially with regards to Crosby and Kessel. And I imagine we'll end up with 3 of those 4 players there anyways, with the other adding skill to the 3rd line.

And that being said, I'm not convinced that Bonino isn't every bit as skilled, or moreso, than BB.

 

[mpp9]

I honestly don't know. I thought he played center and right wing.

I thought he did with Washington.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

So we should just ignore the recent past and focus on what he did yesteryear when making lineup decisions?

I mean if he legitimately earns the job over everyone else, then give it to him. I just don't think MJ intends on giving all the other candidates a legit shot.

It's what the Pens would do.

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

I thought he did with Washington.

He has definitely played left wing in Washington. I dont know how much/often but he has played there.

 

[billybudd]

I'm curious, why? Because of the way the team has viewed/played Bennett and his inability to stay healthy thus far? Or because you think Bennett is incapable of playing on that line?

It's a combination of style and acknowledgment of qualitative and quantitative reality.

But let me point out that the idea that Bennett never got a chance with Crosby is very wrong. He played with 87 more than any other center in 2013-14 and did a worse job than any wing 87's ever had who isn't out of the NHL, including guys like Asham, Rupp, and Godard, all of which were on lines that greatly outscored 87-19-whatever with an hour less ice time. The on-ice play looked worse than the (terrible) numbers indicate, though since so many people think they've never been tried together, I suppose it shouldn't surprise me that they've also forgotten how bad Bennett played when Dan kept inexplicably starting him on 87's wing at the start of every first period for an interminable number of games before deciding we might need to win and switching to Stempniak, Dupuis, Malkin or even Gibbons mid-way through the second.

If you were to go back and look at game tape--which was rife with offsides, terrible passes to people who weren't there, Bennett trying to trail the trailer and nobody in scoring position ever--you'd never want to see them on a line together again. Though I think they may have once connected indirectly on an empty netter (which was mostly Maatta's work), so I guess there's that.

I couldn't care less about Bennett's injuries, either as excuses or indictments, unless someone's going to trot out Dupuis or Fehr's injuries as a reason that the more-injured Bennett should be playing somewhere he should not be playing regardless of his health or the health of 12-15 other guys who merit a look before he merits another.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah, under the assumption that Fehr can play LW, then he's by far the most ideal candidate to play on Sid's LW. He's obviously great defensively and very physical, but he's also not bad offensively. Last year, he had a 21 goal and 36 point pace and has gotten as high of a 25 goals and 46 points pace. Those numbers aren't bad at all, especially for what we'd want from a 3rd wheel on that line. Playing him on the wing takes away from his faceoff abilities, but otherwise, I think he could be an excellent complement for those 2.

 

[JTG]

This thread has become quite hostile.

The season just needs to start.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

This seems tame compared to the actual season. Especially when an important player is slumping... like Malkin. But YMMV.

 

[billybudd]

That doesn't necessarily mean those four players should be on the top two lines, it's much more about fit, especially with regards to Crosby and Kessel. And I imagine we'll end up with 3 of those 4 players there anyways, with the other adding skill to the 3rd line.

And that being said, I'm not convinced that Bonino isn't every bit as skilled, or moreso, than BB.

Fehr's got baby soft hands for a big guy, too.

For some reason people have it in their head that "skill" = dangling, headfakes and behind the back passes. Most of that stuff is irrelevant in the modern game.

Skating's a skill. Quick decision-making is a skill. Quick reactions are a skill. Finishing is a skill. A fast release is a skill. Deflections are a skill.

And all six of those things map better to production than Erik Christensen style, highlight reel Swiss league fanciness, but too many people think the opposite, stupidly.

 

[Richard]

As a center I wouldn't want to play with two soft skilled guys who float. Who the hell would advocate for Perron and Kessel on Crosby's wing??? I could always deal with one lazy skilled winger, two is asking for trouble. I want a guy who hits, skates and helps me with D. And that's what Crosby wants too. Kunitz/dupuis are those guys. Sorry the game isn't played on PLAYSTATION. Perron maybe plays with geno or the third line. Though Malkin seems to like to big bruising guys as well. Especially if they have hands in close (hornvqist).

 

[Jag68Sid87]

It's too bad Fehr isn't left handed, because I think he could be a good fit with Crosby-Kessel.

The nice thing about signing Fehr is getting a versatile player who can move up and down the lineup, side to side and move in the middle. He HAS played a lot of left wing in the NHL and junior hockey, and can line up at all three forward positions.

I would have no issue trying him on LW on the Crosby line. Or the Malkin line. Place Fehr anywhere, really. He can plug any number of holes, really.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

As a center I wouldn't want to play with two soft skilled guys who float. Who the hell would advocate for Perron and Kessel on Crosby's wing??? I could always deal with one lazy skilled winger, two is asking for trouble. I want a guy who hits, skates and helps me with D. And that's what Crosby wants too. Kunitz/dupuis are those guys. Sorry the game isn't played on PLAYSTATION. Perron maybe plays with geno or the third line. Though Malkin seems to like to big bruising guys as well. Especially if they have hands in close (hornvqist).

You say this, and of course Crosby CURRENTLY IS playing with two 'soft skilled guys who float'.

People seem to be in denial re: who Chris Kunitz has become.

 

[Shady Machine]

Fehr's got baby soft hands for a big guy, too.

For some reason people have it in their head that "skill" = dangling, headfakes and behind the back passes. Most of that stuff is irrelevant in the modern game.

Skating's a skill. Quick decision-making is a skill. Quick reactions are a skill. Finishing is a skill. A fast release is a skill. Deflections are a skill.

And all six of those things map better to production than Erik Christensen style, highlight reel Swiss league fanciness, but too many people think the opposite, stupidly.

I'm on the Fehr with Sid-Kessel train if he can play LW.

Fehr-Sid-Kessel
Perron-Malkin-Hornqvist
Plots-Bonino-Bennett
Kunitz-Cullen-Dupuis

Shoot Kunitz to the moon for a rental dman or something at the deadline and call up Sundqvist.

 

[Richard]

You say this, and of course Crosby CURRENTLY IS playing with two 'soft skilled guys who float'.

People seem to be in denial re: who Chris Kunitz has become.

What are you talking about, he went into the corners and he made like 4 or 5 soft little dump passes to set sid and kessel off and running. That is doing the dirty work, especially for a winger being below the circle. So I don't know what you are talking about. In the offensive zone he was body to body with a dman on every shift.

What is your definition of soft then?

 

[Shady Machine]

The nice thing about signing Fehr is getting a versatile player who can move up and down the lineup, side to side and move in the middle. He HAS played a lot of left wing in the NHL and junior hockey, and can line up at all three forward positions.

I would have no issue trying him on LW on the Crosby line. Or the Malkin line. Place Fehr anywhere, really. He can plug any number of holes, really.

Cool beans. Yeah this team is honestly stacked with guys that can play top 6 and not look out of place. The Fehr signing may end up being huge for this team.

 

[Shady Machine]

What are you talking about, he went into the corners and he made like 4 or 5 soft little dump passes to set sid and kessel off and running. That is doing the dirty work, especially for a winger being below the circle. So I don't know what you are talking about. In the offensive zone he was body to body with a dman on every shift.

What is your definition of soft then?

I think people are referring to his play last season, which was as a soft floater that thought he could shoot like James Neal.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

What are you talking about, he went into the corners and he made like 4 or 5 soft little dump passes to set sid and kessel off and running. That is doing the dirty work, especially for a winger being below the circle. So I don't know what you are talking about. In the offensive zone he was body to body with a dman on every shift.

What is your definition of soft then?

So we can take what a veteran like Kunitz does in preseason Game 1 as gospel, but dismiss what a rookie like Sprong does because, well, it was a bad Hurricanes lineup.

Gotcha.