Speculation: The Reto Tank Method

[Chyep]

No one will ever say this team didn't bring its best most if not every night this season. Less talent is less talent. Hard work is a great equalizer but not a substitute.

That said I felt that Karri Ramo played well enough to earn a few starts earlier in the year, but the team kept throwing Berra in game after game for an extended stretch. Have we given any pause as to where this team might have wound up had Berra had a much shorter leash, and was that part of the plan? Hard to argue today with getting a second for Reto even if he does pan out as a decent NHL'er in a few years.

| Games played in | Games Started | W | L | OTL | SOL | PTS| PTS / START
Karri Ramo | 37 | 34 | 16 | 13 | 4 | 2 | 38 | 1.118
MacDonald | 10 | 9 | 5 | 4 | 1 | 0 | 11 | 1.222
Joni Ortio | 9 | 9 | 4 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 8 | 0.889
| | | | | | | |
Reto Berra | 30 | 26 | 9 | 17 | 3 | 0 | 21 | 0.889

Flames WITH RETO | 86 | 78 | 34 | 38 | 8 | 2 | 78 | 1.000
Flames WITHOUT | 56 | 52 | 25 | 21 | 5 | 2 | 57 | 1.096

Click to read more...

 

[InfinityIggy]

Was it a conspiracy to make us lose by playing Berra? No I don't think so.

Was it odd Hartley game Berra such a long leash? Yes I think it was.

 

[Pirate King Luffy]

Illuminati.

 

[Anglesmith]

I'm confused. If both with and without Berra we had greater than or equal to 1 pt/game, doesn't that mean we're above .500?

 

[Chyep]

Was it a conspiracy to make us lose by playing Berra? No I don't think so.

Was it odd Hartley game Berra such a long leash? Yes I think it was.

I wouldn't go so far to say conspiracy either, but drafting high this year was in the cards I think, and Berra gave us the best chance to get there right up until the trade dead line when his play improved.

 

[Chyep]

I'm confused. If both with and without Berra we had greater than or equal to 1 pt/game, doesn't that mean we're above .500?

Not with the NHL's math where overtime games are worth 50% more than games that end in regulation.

 

[Pirate King Luffy]

I'm confused. If both with and without Berra we had greater than or equal to 1 pt/game, doesn't that mean we're above .500?

 

[MuffinMerc]

..................Games Played... Games...W...L...OTL...SOL...PTS......PTS / START
..................In...................Started
Karri Ramo..37................... 34.........16..13....4.....2.....38...........1.118
MacDonald...10................... 9............5...4.....1 .....0.....11...........1.222
Joni Ortio......9................... 9............4...4.....0.....0.......8........... 0.889

Reto Berra....30..................26..........9...17....3.....0......21..........0.889

WITH RETO...86.................78..........34..38....8.....2.....78...........1.000
WITHOUT.....56..................52.........25...21...5.....2......57...........1.096

 

[Anglesmith]

Not with the NHL's math where overtime games are worth 50% more than games that end in regulation.

Nope. Also, why does it say that Reto was in 86 games? The numbers need some serious fixing here.

Regardless, the topic is still debatable. I think that the Flames legitimately saw the same things that Colorado apparently saw. A big guy with tons of athletic ability. I think our management got trapped into thinking that the next game, he'd be able to fix those bugs in his game... okay, maybe the next game.... okay, maybe the next game.... etc.

I know I fell into that this season, too. And that day could still be coming at some point.

 

[Chyep]

Nope. Also, why does it say that Reto was in 86 games? The numbers need some serious fixing here.

Regardless, the topic is still debatable. I think that the Flames legitimately saw the same things that Colorado apparently saw. A big guy with tons of athletic ability. I think our management got trapped into thinking that the next game, he'd be able to fix those bugs in his game... okay, maybe the next game.... okay, maybe the next game.... etc.

I know I fell into that this season, too. And that day could still be coming at some point.

Games played in are not starts, and "WITH RETO" is the team with Reto not Reto by himself which is also shown.

More likely they gave up something to get him so gave him more leash.

 

[Pirate King Luffy]

Games played in are not starts, and "WITH RETO" is the team with Reto not Reto by himself which is also shown.

More likely they gave up something to get him so gave him more leash.

Well there are 82 games in the season. Where did you get 86 games?

 

[Chyep]

There is something wrong with the points because we don't have 78.
Just a second. I'll find it. Might be a point reto got in Colorado in there.

 

[Chyep]

Well there are 82 games in the season. Where did you get 86 games?

There is games started there as well.
If a player starts a game but doesn't finish a game 2 players will get a game played in for the same game.

 

[MonahanTheMan]

what the **** am i reading

 

[MarkGio]

Chyep, can you please put the data in table format? Quote me to see what its like:

cell-1 | cell-2

cell-1 | cell-2
Cell-3 | Cell-4

 

[MarkGio]

I wouldn't go so far to say conspiracy either, but drafting high this year was in the cards I think, and Berra gave us the best chance to get there right up until the trade dead line when his play improved.

Perhaps Hartley always knew Ramo was the better goalie but sheltered him from a losing season in order to develop him properly. Usually goalies start off as backups right? By throwing Berra under the bus, t allows Ramo to suffer less of a blow by being a starter for a bad hockey team.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

So basically the TLR summary of OP is if Ramo starts a Kipper-esque level of games (say around 70) the Flames are a playoff team, but playing Reto Berra so much was to ensure they lost a lot more.

Clearly Joey MacDonald should have started the majority of games, as his points/start ratio is much higher.

 

[MarkGio]

To add to the OP, there were a lot of people on these forums who thought Ramo deserved more starts, and it was weird that Berra was favored by Hartley. I look back at having to defend myself earlier this season by those who stand by Hartley and Feaster blindly and persecuted anyone who questioned their decisions, but its seems some of us was right in thinking Ramo was the better goalie going forward.

 

[MarkGio]

So basically the TLR summary of OP is if Ramo starts a Kipper-esque level of games (say around 70) the Flames are a playoff team, but playing Reto Berra so much was to ensure they lost a lot more.

Clearly Joey MacDonald should have started the majority of games, as his points/start ratio is much higher.

I don't see the point in being patronizing with the image, it's an interesting theory. If I recall, Joey Mac was given an unusual number of starts early on, when it really did appear like Ramo was the odd man out in Hartley's books. This notion of it being a tank conspiracy is certainly novel, but questioning Hartley's choice in starters is not. We went through huge debates around here to start the season. Why do people automatically get defensive when a unique concept presents itself?

 

[Pirate King Luffy]

I doubt it. It is bullcrap and will never know anyways. Just starting a false theory/conspiracy.

 

[MonahanTheMan]

I doubt it. It is bullcrap and will never know anyways. Just starting a false theory/conspiracy.

I agree, the last thing we need is other teams claiming that we intentionally tanked to get a high pick, it really hurts the legitimacy of the organization.

 

[Chyep]

I doubt it. It is bullcrap and will never know anyways. Just starting a false theory/conspiracy.

I thought it was interesting that the team has a decent record without 1 guy. I don't have a tin foil hat nor do I believe its a conspiracy, just an interesting look at some decent goaltending stats from a team near the basement.

 

[Chyep]

I agree, the last thing we need is other teams claiming that we intentionally tanked to get a high pick, it really hurts the legitimacy of the organization.

Really?
You think someone is going to confuse this board with the brain trust of the Flames.

Don't worry about it. It wont happen.

 

[MarkGio]

I doubt it. It is bullcrap and will never know anyways. Just starting a false theory/conspiracy.

Every theory needs evidence to support it. We're seeing some evidence right now, even if the theory is not well supported. I think most of us agree that the Flames organization could have done more to tank if that was the ultimate goal, given how we've exceeded expectations this season if anything and retained our best players when other teams didn't.

While I think the conclusions of this data is a stretch, I'm not too close minded to entertain them. Mind you, I use an open mind to make the right decisions

 

[InfinityIggy]

I don't see the point in being patronizing with the image, it's an interesting theory. If I recall, Joey Mac was given an unusual number of starts early on, when it really did appear like Ramo was the odd man out in Hartley's books. This notion of it being a tank conspiracy is certainly novel, but questioning Hartley's choice in starters is not. We went through huge debates around here to start the season. Why do people automatically get defensive when a unique concept presents itself?

Well when MacDonald is the best goalie in practice what are we supposed to believe?!