The Race for the Calder Trophy

WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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ur citing anomalies ; not the norm
The argument is that Faber isn't good enough to be a #1D on a cup winner. History would tell us that's false. He's at least as good as the top dmen on teams that won the 2004, 2006, 2017, 2018, and 2019 cups IMO.

That's:
Kubina
Hedican
Dumoulin
Carlson
Pietrangelo

You could probably argue Gonchar in 2009 too. Faber doesn't have the same offensive ability as some of these guys but he's way better defensively than those guys.

Doughty, Makar, Hedman, Pronger, Lidstrom, and Keith are the only #1D on cup winners in the last 20 years who I'd say are clearly ahead of Faber.
 

GrumpyKoala

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I'd take Faber for a playoff run anyday
Am less sure about current Bedard

Does Bedard play for a bad team... yeah
Do others team come overly prepared when facing the Hawks... nay
 
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wetcoast

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Bumping this due to the Article below today, lots of really good quotes from league insiders on both Bedard and Faber in here (sorry fans of the other strong rookies.)

Paywall.

Probably an interesting article but Bedard is winning the Calder hands down this year and rightly so.

Faber is having a great rookie season but it's been Bedards to lose and he ahs simply stepped up without very much help.
 

EddieTheEagle

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What do you mean by this? From what I've seen of Hawks games this year, the opposing team is absolutely focusing on Bedard heavily....but perhaps you meant something else.
I agree completely. I've frequently seen entire penalty kill structures set up against the Hawks specifically to hem in Bedard at a cost that exposes other parts of the ice. The Hawks are just typically so bad, they can't capitalize on it.
 
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Hawkaholic

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What do you mean by this? From what I've seen of Hawks games this year, the opposing team is absolutely focusing on Bedard heavily....but perhaps you meant something else.
Yeah, all they have to do is have 1 player shadow Bedard the whole entire game and they don't have to worry about anyone else on the team. Of course they don't overly prepare, thats literally all they have to do lol
 

Obvious Fabertism

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reading this thread just makes me wonder why the Wild aren't in a Playoff spot when they have the best Defenseman in the league playing 70 minutes/night
See the injuries list. People using the poor teammates excuse for Bedard are overlooking the relatively large sample when Spurgeon, Brodin, Kaprizov, Boldy, Zuccarello, Foligno we’re all injured at the same time. That $38MM roster is just as bad as the Bedard-less Hawks. Kaprizov wasn’t healthy until after the all star break, all of the big names have played through significant injuries at points this season, the Wild have a $14MM cap penalty that leaves them no room for depth players, so anyone with a big contract is going out there broken bones or not.
 

bwanajamba

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Very funny that people are still talking about this. Bedard playing with the likes of Kaprizov and Boldy is pushing for 100 points, Old Man Faber on Chicago is a souped-up Alex Vlasic. Good on him for getting a team that was in the playoffs last year within spitting distance of the second wild card though
 

OilWagon

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The argument is that Faber isn't good enough to be a #1D on a cup winner. History would tell us that's false. He's at least as good as the top dmen on teams that won the 2004, 2006, 2017, 2018, and 2019 cups IMO.

That's:
Kubina
Hedican
Dumoulin
Carlson
Pietrangelo

You could probably argue Gonchar in 2009 too. Faber doesn't have the same offensive ability as some of these guys but he's way better defensively than those guys.

Doughty, Makar, Hedman, Pronger, Lidstrom, and Keith are the only #1D on cup winners in the last 20 years who I'd say are clearly ahead of Faber.
We're really going to compare him to 2018 Carlsson and 2019 Pietrangelo?
 

Digitalbooya

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Very funny that people are still talking about this. Bedard playing with the likes of Kaprizov and Boldy is pushing for 100 points, Old Man Faber on Chicago is a souped-up Alex Vlasic. Good on him for getting a team that was in the playoffs last year within spitting distance of the second wild card though
What’s really funny is watching all the Bedard simps get their panties in a wad if Faber is even mentioned.
 
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WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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We're really going to compare him to 2018 Carlsson and 2019 Pietrangelo?
Yes, I would take Faber over Carlson for sure. Carlson's a great offensive weapon, especially on the PP, but leaves a lot to be desired elsewhere. He's one of the most overrated dmen in the league IMO. Faber's ES production really isn't too far from prime Carlson's, and he's doing it while being significantly better defensively.

2019 Pietrangelo and Faber are roughly on par IMO. Pietrangelo is better offensively but if I needed a guy to shut down the other team's top line, I'd take Faber.

But they're different types of defenseman. I put a priority on defenseman who can shut down the opponents top scorers, and Faber does that better than both of those guys while still being a valuable offensive player. That's why I rate Slavin as a top 5 defenseman in the league despite his lackluster point totals.

I accept that others may value offensive dmen more. But to me, I'd rather have my #1 be more of a shut down guy, and let a true OFD QB the PP. It's much harder to find good shut down dmen these days, whereas pure offensive dmen / PP QBs seem like a dime a dozen and can often be acquired through waivers or with late picks. Guys like DeAngelo, Gustafsson, Gostisbehere, Barrie, Yandle etc.

Carolina has done this well, where they have Slavin as their #1 dman at 5v5 and on the PK, but have used OFD like Burns, DeAngelo, Gostisbehere, Hamilton, Faulk etc as their PP1 guy. Slavin has shown he can fill in as a QB as needed, but there's no reason to force him to log those extra minutes when there are plenty of less valuable dmen who can QB a PP. There aren't a ton of defenseman who are both meaningfully better QBs than those QB specialists while also being really well rounded in other aspects. Fox is probably the top guy that comes to mind, as well as guys like Makar, Hughes, Dahlin, and Josi. But for most other elite 2 way dmen, I'd just as soon save them for 5v5 and let a lesser dman run PP1.
 
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Guadana

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Faber. When we are talking about only one playoff chance and the shape of both players, its Faber. Of course there are tonns of evidences Bedard will be great player and even his season is very good overall for him.
But if both players are playing different role, why we can't use "which player you would pick NOW for only one playoff appearance now, this season" argument.
Of course Bedard will win because of hype.Even if Faber would be much closer in points.
 

Toby91ca

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I take Bedard and don't think it's close enough, but if it were close enough where I needed a tiebreaker in my mind, rightly or wrongly, I'd absolutely go with Bedard as he's 3 years younger.
 

x Tame Impala

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Faber over Cup-winning 1D Carlsson and Pietrangelo

iu
 

ricky0034

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Yes, I would take Faber over Carlson for sure. Carlson's a great offensive weapon, especially on the PP, but leaves a lot to be desired elsewhere. He's one of the most overrated dmen in the league IMO. Faber's ES production really isn't too far from prime Carlson's, and he's doing it while being significantly better defensively.

2019 Pietrangelo and Faber are roughly on par IMO. Pietrangelo is better offensively but if I needed a guy to shut down the other team's top line, I'd take Faber.

But they're different types of defenseman. I put a priority on defenseman who can shut down the opponents top scorers, and Faber does that better than both of those guys while still being a valuable offensive player. That's why I rate Slavin as a top 5 defenseman in the league despite his lackluster point totals.

I accept that others may value offensive dmen more. But to me, I'd rather have my #1 be more of a shut down guy, and let a true OFD QB the PP. It's much harder to find good shut down dmen these days, whereas pure offensive dmen / PP QBs seem like a dime a dozen and can often be acquired through waivers or with late picks. Guys like DeAngelo, Gustafsson, Gostisbehere, Barrie, Yandle etc.

Carolina has done this well, where they have Slavin as their #1 dman at 5v5 and on the PK, but have used OFD like Burns, DeAngelo, Gostisbehere, Hamilton, Faulk etc as their PP1 guy. Slavin has shown he can fill in as a QB as needed, but there's no reason to force him to log those extra minutes when there are plenty of less valuable dmen who can QB a PP. There aren't a ton of defenseman who are both meaningfully better QBs than those QB specialists while also being really well rounded in other aspects. Fox is probably the top guy that comes to mind, as well as guys like Makar, Hughes, Dahlin, and Josi. But for most other elite 2 way dmen, I'd just as soon save them for 5v5 and let a lesser dman run PP1.

barely started reading this post and already something that's just plain laughably factually incorrect

Brock Faber is currently 21st in the league in even strength points among Defensemen

Carlson lead the league once and also has other seasons where he finished 2nd,3rd,4th,6th,6th,8th,10th
 
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WhiskeyYerTheDevils

yer leadin me astray
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barely started reading this post and already something that's just plain laughably factually incorrect

Brock Faber is currently 21st in the league in even strength points among Defensemen

Carlson lead the league once and also has other seasons where he finished 2nd,3rd,4th,6th,6th,8th,10th
Carlson has averaged 26 5v5 points per 82 games in his career. Faber is on pace for 28 5v5 points.

During his cup winning season, Carlson scored 31 5v5 points. Scoring was slightly lower then, but Carlson was also playing on a much better team.

1711475530370.png

Like I said, Faber's not that far behind.
 

ricky0034

Registered User
Jun 8, 2010
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Carlson has averaged 26 5v5 points per 82 games in his career. Faber is on pace for 28 5v5 points.

During his cup winning season, Carlson scored 31 5v5 points. Scoring was slightly lower then, but Carlson was also playing on a much better team.

View attachment 841684
Like I said, Faber's not that far behind.
"Scoring was slightly lower" is a pretty big understatement

if you look specifically at 5 on 5 points by Defensemen in 2017-18 and now then Brock Faber is currently 25th in the league among Defensemen and Carlson finished 5th that year which I and I would wager most people would consider a fairly major gap
 

WhiskeyYerTheDevils

yer leadin me astray
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"Scoring was slightly lower" is a pretty big understatement

if you look specifically at 5 on 5 points by Defensemen in 2017-18 and now then Brock Faber is currently 25th in the league among Defensemen and Carlson finished 5th that year which I and I would wager most people would consider a fairly major gap
Faber is 20th in 5v5 points with 24 points. That would have also put him 20th in 2017-18.

That's a difference of 7 points over a full season, not really a huge difference, especially considering all the extra secondary points Carlson earned by playing on a literal cup winning team.

Funnily enough - Faber is 22nd in primary 5v5 points, and Carlson was 23rd in primary 5v5 points that season.
 

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