Speculation: The narrative in TOR has changed so quickly

[ottomaddox]

Just last July TOR fans and media were still talking about the virtues of speed, skill, and possession numbers. That the NHL has changed, and that there's no need for toughness. That our "elite" forwards were going to topple the Blue Jackets. On top of that so many fans were happy to use the 1st round pick to get rid of Marleau. Yes his contract was too long, but he showed no signs of aging in his first season. He's still to this day playing in the NHL.

Fast forward to last week where you had Mirtle and Siegal on their podcast praising the signing of Simmonds "because you need a presence and more balance in your line-up".

To add to that we now have Joe Thornton in our line up. Granted a lot of teams would sign him at league min, but he does nothing in terms of adding speed and youth.

What happened? I thought we didn't need older players and toughness.

How did Dubas' new technological hockey die (practically overnight)?

Click to read more...

 

[ACC1224]

It was a bad idea until it happened and then it became all part of the plan(long overdue, IMO).
Such is life at the altar of Dubas.

 

[Morbo]

I think you're overreacting over a few guys signed to the minimum towards the bottom of the lineup.

also Dubas never said he needed zero toughness or veteran players. that part comes from the fans and media you're talking about.

 

[DarkKnight]

There’s no question the philosophy is evolving as results have shown deficiencies.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Dubas at least is willing to change. That's about some of the only credit I'm willing to give him. At least we're not stuck with a guy like Burke again who's hardheadedness added years to our struggles.

That said, I hope this analytics nonsense starts fading into the background. Using as a means to build your team strictly like Dubas seemingly did is completely stupid and removes every unquantifiable "human" variable from the mix. He should have never gotten this job in the first place but eh

 

[Joey Hoser]

WTF is "technological hockey"?

 

[Peasy]

Imagine trying to make an issue over someone trying to improve from their faults?

The group we had last year clearly isn't what it is going to take to win.

And the Marleau trade had to happen so we could sign Marner. Why is that even mentioned?

Dubas' mentality has always been that first of all, the player actually has to be effective at hockey and not just punching faces. Hes never been fully against physical players despite what is said in the media and by fans. This guy traded for Jake Muzzin, and then Clifford last year.

 

[The Iceman]

Babcock: Players will want to come to Toronto - Sportsnet.ca

just past the 15 minute mark. BABCOCK interview.

Mark my words, the Toronto area players will want to play for the Leafs. They don't right now.

My buddy bumped into Jumbo 10 years ago. Spoke for 10 seconds to Jumbo. Asked if he ever wanted to play in Toronto. NO WAY he said.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Dubas has said all along that toughness is great,, but they have to be able to play
They weren't happy with the team's lack of push-back, especially after the playoffs and made changes. That's what teams do.

 

[The Iceman]

Dubas always says those close to him know he is always open to change. I think Dubas did a great job taking advantage of the economic conditions that exist.

Past years if you add a Simmonds type would cost you $3 million which was not a priority for the past Leaf teams. Every bit of cap dollar needed to go to skill.

 

[ShaneFalco]

They've been interested in Simmonds, Brodie and Thornton for a while. hey made it happen this year

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Dubas has been very clear that his goal is to load up on speed and skill and address holes such as grit/toughness or defense as necessary. He's not abandoning his plan or team building approach, as evidenced by his draft. Fans just don't really know what they're talking about

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

The guy has literally been on the job just over two years including with a season stopped mid way through and all signing and drafting dates altered. Exactly how quickly do you expect everything addressed? Lou had 4 years to address D and essentially nothing. While they might not all hit, at least we have seen shots with Muzzin, Barrie and Brodie in that short time. Nothing has changed. Did you miss this past draft? Are you aware of his work with the Marlies where he in fact employed several people that weren't skill guys? All he has done is add bottom fillers while maintaining the strategy of using draft capital on skill and IQ while addressing the easier to address issues the cheapest way possible.

 

[Damisoph]

I don't think he's ever said we don't need toughness. In typical Dubas-speak, he spoke about it developing organically from within. That obviously hasn't happened so they are addressing it another way.

I don't get these threads. Like it's a bad thing that our GM is evolving and understanding that he needs to do different things with the roster. I mean, we could still have Lou who doesn't change at all, to the detriment of his team.

 

[DarkKnight]

I don't think he's ever said we don't need toughness. In typical Dubas-speak, he spoke about it developing organically from within. That obviously hasn't happened so they are addressing it another way.

I don't get these threads. Like it's a bad thing that our GM is evolving and understanding that he needs to do different things with the roster. I mean, we could still have Lou who doesn't change at all, to the detriment of his team.

It’s a great thing to be pragmatic and constantly re-evaluate.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Literally nobody has ever said we don't need any toughness or leadership. Dubas hasn't said that, and he's never operated that way. That's just a narrative the fans and the media pushed with no evidence. What has been said is that skill is still, by far, the most important attribute, and "grit" is still massively overrated and overpaid for, which is true. The issue that existed here is that some people wanted to abandon the whole hockey part, and blow everything up and trade away our future just to have face-punchers on ice. The rest of us, and Dubas, recognized that we could add those "grit" and "leadership" attributes in surrounding pieces (that can also contribute in other ways) for relatively cheap, without abandoning our strengths, core, or skill-based style of play.

Just because you don't want to a broken down, useless Marleau at 6.25m blocking the signings of your way more important players and playing top-6 minutes, that doesn't mean you don't see the value in veteran leadership (that can still play better than Marleau) for 700k or so in depth roles. Just because you don't want to throw away one of the best players in the league in Marner for "tougher" names at an overpriced cost, that doesn't mean you can't recognize the value in signing depth pieces with grittier attributes at undervalued prices to surround players like Marner.

These players that we're signing bring on-ice value in things other than "grit".

 

[justashadowof]

<sigh> We've been through this before. He's exploiting market inefficiencies, duh. In this case, it's a face puncher er... a power forward and an over-the-hill er... experienced former Hart winner. Now get back in line, pleb.

 

[Jmo89]

Oh cool, another thread where the same three anti-Dubas posters can argue with the same three pro-Dubas posters and lump everyone else as one or the other.

As for the OP, I don't remember the media ever really agreeing with Toronto's team construction last year. There were, and are, plenty of fans who were against the lack of physicality, and there were also plenty of people who took issue with Barrie being the upgrade on D.

Overall, my view of Dubas has been negative, but I find it strange how a half dozen posters are here to trade barbs with each other rather than discuss the team.

 

[ottomaddox]

Oh cool, another thread where the same three anti-Dubas posters can argue with the same three pro-Dubas posters and lump everyone else as one or the other.

As for the OP, I don't remember the media ever really agreeing with Toronto's team construction last year. There were, and are, plenty of fans who were against the lack of physicality, and there were also plenty of people who took issue with Barrie being the upgrade on D.

Overall, my view of Dubas has been negative, but I find it strange how a half dozen posters are here to trade barbs with each other rather than discuss the team.

I say things like "fans" or "Siegal and Mirtle". I am not listing off usernames on a hockey forum.

My view is still negative too. I can't believe how far Dubas has gone just to get to the same place. We are witnessing a departure from skill and speed (Johnsson, Kap, Petan, Malgin, etc.) back to what was there before (Hainsey, Martin, Polak, Marleau, Leo, etc.).

I am just so surprised how quickly things have changed. Even those media people (who are in bunker mode right now) are starting to see the virtues of a more "traditional" team building.

 

[Terrible GM]

Quick story.. loosely related.
Not living in Ontario and proudly wearing my Leaf hat makes me a target for little jabs from Hab/Bruin fans. Last week in a grocery store and some really loud guy gives me the.. "oh god, a Leaf fan" There too small, etc. etc. Montreal will be better. Then his wife walks by and says as she is getting her distance from him.. "ignore him, he's a Leaf fan too" I smiled and walked away. Twenty minutes later I'm at a different store, and just inside we lock eyes.. here we go again.

So I engage this time instead of smiling and walking away. The guy hates Dubas, blames Lou's moves on him, and bashes Mathews, saying he is too soft. "Sundin played harder than Mathews" I looked at him and said.. Sundin was pretty soft when we came in. He didn't engage hard along the boards, that took a few years. Then the guy says, yeah but he didn't play with anyone in Quebec. I laughed, spewed off a few names including Sakic, I told him he has his blinders on. These players (Mathews, Marner, Nylander) need to learn how to play harder much like Sundin did. Not all players come into the league and want to hit or understand how to adjust their game come playoffs. We agreed to disagree, but I said give it time, they will learn.

You gotta think Dubas or any other GM hopes their skilled/star players tweak their game in the playoffs, if they don't then you bring players in to help. The Leafs showed once again in the play in round they aren't there yet. Bringing in Thornton REALLY helps in the locker room, and Simmons, Bogosian will make an impact. Nothing is guaranteed, but I don't want a GM in place that makes rash moves without investing in the players first. No one said we didn't need toughness or leadership, but you have to think it develops with your players before making these moves.

 

[X66]

Dubas has been very clear that his goal is to load up on speed and skill and address holes such as grit/toughness or defense as necessary. He's not abandoning his plan or team building approach, as evidenced by his draft. Fans just don't really know what they're talking about

This is the type of post that needs to be a sticky on every single thread regarding Dubas.

 

[saltming]

Just last July TOR fans and media were still talking about the virtues of speed, skill, and possession numbers. That the NHL has changed, and that there's no need for toughness. That our "elite" forwards were going to topple the Blue Jackets. On top of that so many fans were happy to use the 1st round pick to get rid of Marleau. Yes his contract was too long, but he showed no signs of aging in his first season. He's still to this day playing in the NHL.

Fast forward to last week where you had Mirtle and Siegal on their podcast praising the signing of Simmonds "because you need a presence and more balance in your line-up".

To add to that we now have Joe Thornton in our line up. Granted a lot of teams would sign him at league min, but he does nothing in terms of adding speed and youth.

What happened? I thought we didn't need older players and toughness.

How did Dubas' new technological hockey die (practically overnight)?

Could you post a link with Dubas or shanny saying they don't need toughness?
The closest I can recall is him saying you acquire skill at the draft because you can always trade for toughness.

 

[Smif]

Just last July TOR fans and media were still talking about the virtues of speed, skill, and possession numbers. That the NHL has changed, and that there's no need for toughness. That our "elite" forwards were going to topple the Blue Jackets. On top of that so many fans were happy to use the 1st round pick to get rid of Marleau. Yes his contract was too long, but he showed no signs of aging in his first season. He's still to this day playing in the NHL.

Fast forward to last week where you had Mirtle and Siegal on their podcast praising the signing of Simmonds "because you need a presence and more balance in your line-up".

To add to that we now have Joe Thornton in our line up. Granted a lot of teams would sign him at league min, but he does nothing in terms of adding speed and youth.

What happened? I thought we didn't need older players and toughness.

How did Dubas' new technological hockey die (practically overnight)?

We've been following Tampa's build. Tampa pivoted last year when they realized they needed more balance. This is what Dubas has done this offseason.

Balance baby.

 

[Leafsfan74]

The difference between this load up and past load ups, is that when Leafs signed Lindros and Allison, for example, those Leafs teams top talent weren't as young as ours. They were expected to come in and be major contributors.

Leaf fans don't expect the vets we bring in now to be the main contributors, we expect them to help along the younger core, play with a little more attitude and drive. As long as the core remains, they will be the main determinant of success or failure. They will now have more demands from an experienced leadership group.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

Imagine trying to make an issue over someone trying to improve from their faults?

The group we had last year clearly isn't what it is going to take to win.

And the Marleau trade had to happen so we could sign Marner. Why is that even mentioned?

Dubas' mentality has always been that first of all, the player actually has to be effective at hockey and not just punching faces. Hes never been fully against physical players despite what is said in the media and by fans. This guy traded for Jake Muzzin, and then Clifford last year.

It's always the same anti-Dubas posters wanting to engage in bad faith time wasting arguments. They badly need better hobbies/happier lives.