Here is my shameless attempt at pimping “My 5â€:
Moose Watson: plenty of references exist stating that Moose Watson was considered the very best amateur player in Canada, making him the best player not in the “top leagues†of the time. Of course, that is somewhat cryptic because it could mean that he was the 71st-best player in the world after the 70 who were in the top leagues, or perhaps he was better than all of them. That is a pretty wide range. In a best case scenario he would be far and away the best player in the draft; in a worst-case scenario, worse than at least 30 undrafted players from that era alone.
However, this can be somewhat clarified by the fact that he was offered $10,000 to play in the NHL in 1924, which was a ton of money at the time, showing that the hockey establishment saw him as a player with the potential to be far above average in the NHL.
So here are some points of reference to help you extrapolate his value:
-
In the 1924 Olympics, Watson was the undisputed star of the Toronto Granites team that romped to Gold. He outscored his linemates, Bert McCaffrey (who went on to a decent multipositional NHL career in his 30s) and most importantly Hooley Smith, who went on to a HHOF career in the NHL. Now 5 games don’t prove Watson had Smith’s upside, but it is at least an indication.
- In Watson’s bio, I pasted in an old study I did in which I compare his regular season and playoff scoring rates to those of the other OHA players who went on to NHL careers to determine what his offensive upside was compared to their proven rates of scoring at the higher level. This was a 7-point comparison that ultimately (and of course roughly) concluded that Watson could have had as many as five seasons in the top-5 in scoring, based on the weighted certainty of his offensive upside in comparison to these other seven players.
- Iain Fyffe has done a lot of work on league equivalencies and how to gauge dominance in one early league versus that of another. His conclusion was that Watson amassed as much career value as a player like Normie Himes, but in half as many games.
Watson was a very dominant scorer with enough info to reasonably assess his offensive worth. I am not asking you to see him as a guy with multiple top-5 seasons in the NHL. But, that is a conservative “best guess†scenario and I only ask that you are buy into it to some lesser degree, enough that he is an elite MLD 1st liner. I don’t even need you to believe he was as good as a Corb Denneny. But anecdotally, statistically, and based on the HHOF, the case could be made that he was.
Bryan McCabe: McCabe takes way more flak for his supposed defensive issues but a deeper look at the numerican and anecdotal evidence makes it clear he is among the elite players in this MLD.
-
In a draft where many players didn’t even play 11 seasons, McCabe was a #1 or 2 defenseman 11 times
- In a draft where almost no one was a postseason all-star, McCabe has a 2nd team selection from 2004.
- In a draft prior to which most defensemen who routinely played against the opposition’s best players are long gone, McCabe did just that for almost his entire career
- In a draft where almost no one was an NHL captain, McCabe was a captain of two NHL franchises and wore the “A†on a veteran-heavy Leaf team.
Numerically, there is nothing separating McCabe’s from those of a number of ATD defensemen valued more for their offense than their defense..
- He earned heavy and quality minutes for teams that were, especially in his 2000-2008 prime, well above average.
- His goals against numbers, based on two different methods of calculation/adjustment don’t appear in any way to be out of line with these players; in fact, they are better than most of them.
- He had a very positive effect on his team’s GF:GA ratio, something many of them can’t claim
- How much more can we ask of a player at this level, than to have a proven and sustained history of being a very important player to a very good team?
For the numerical support, see here:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=47027609&postcount=583
The following three posts include an explanation of the terms used and commentary on how it shook out. In addition, for something not entirely captured in the numbers, McCabe was a tougher player than the vast majority of players in that list.
Basically, the point is, if you don’t like Bryan McCabe here, then you must really hate Zhitnik, Ramrlik, Ramage, Bodger, Babych, Chiasson, Russell, Korab, Carlyle, Aucoin, Schneider, Stackhouse, Jovanovski, and especially Lumme, Iafrate, Redmond, Wilson, Markov, Timonen, and Kubina where they went. Whatever criticism can be levied towards McCabe can also be applied to these players in relatively equal proportions, (and not all of them played top lines that often) And don’t get me started on Visnovsky and Persson.
My bio of McCabe features everything about his on-ice play that I was able to dig up, and my sources are unbiased scouting reports that span his entire career. They aren’t based on angry fans or Leaf haters; they are based on watching him play. There are references to his defensive game lacking some polish and reference to occasional brainfarts, but he is nowhere near the liability that some would have you believe. Overall, he was quite a solid player.
Murph Chamberlain: There is really nothing not to like about Chamberlain. He was an important role player for some very good teams, getting to the finals 7 times in total, winning twice. He played on lines referred to as “the best checking line in the league†and went up against the opposition’s star players. Even as a rookie, they raved about his defense. He was tough, resilient and physical. He also has a very strong playoff resume. This guy is a warrior. As a bonus, despite playing on checking lines, Chamberlain provided his share of offense. Though never top-20 in any category, his percentage scores look good: 59, 57, 51, 50, 47, 46 – and that is after discounting the WW2 years. Chamberlain is one of the most offensively accomplished 3rd liners in this draft, and has everything else you want: he’s exceptionally tough, great defensively (although I hesitate to compare with modern players with scattered selke votes backing them up; it is little more than guesswork), great in the locker room and clutch. I invite you to read his bio for the full story:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=53635757&postcount=186
Paul Shmyr: Shmyr was clearly the 2nd-best defenseman of the WHA. His multiple all-star teams are proof of this. The only one better, JC Tremblay, had an illustrious, all-star team-laced NHL career. Pat Stapleton was excellent in the WHA and obviously had a better overall career, but Shmyr owned the WHA defensively.
Of note:
- With three first team all-stars he is tied with Tremblay. Only one other player even had two.
- With four total all-star teams he is tied with Tremblay. No one else even had three. (six had two)
- A 1974 poll of WHA correspondents rated Shmyr the WHA’s hardest hitter by a wide margin, best defensive defenseman by a much wider margin, and 2nd-best fighter. Picture Jason Smith but much, much better at everything.
- Shmyr is an real rarity: a 3-time captain. Twice in the WHA for six combined seasons, and in the NHL for two more.
- Scouting reports throughout his entire career describe him as everything a top defenseman should be: defensively solid, tough, physical, resilient, and a leader with great endurance.
Although decent offensively (his converted WHA percentages combined with his one good offensive NHL season are 59, 53, 50, 47, 41, 42, and he was never higher than 5th among WHA d-men) his value is in all he brings without the puck. His puck-rushing ability was really noted in the WHA; and when used in a more offensive role in 1972 with California he demonstrated point-collecting capabilities but this is all a bonus when we’re talking about a true “defenseman’s defensemanâ€.
By the time I selected Shmyr, there were 30 defensemen selected who would be identified as “1970s NHL defensemen†plus one WHA defenseman who was clearly not as good – Rick Ley. Where does the 2nd-best WHA defenseman belong in the 1970s pecking order? Including Tremblay and Rick Ley ahead of him, his draft position indicates 33rd. That can’t be right. Was the WHA so poor that its 2nd-best defenseman was only about as good as the NHL’s 30th-best in the decade? That’s certainly not how people typically talk about the WHA when discussing how much it watered down the 1970s NHL. I won’t speculate on how much higher Paul Shmyr deserves to be selected, but he should be taken much higher and is an elite MLD defenseman.
Barry Gibbs: Oh no, not again! Gibbs became the poster child for TOI being used as evidence for a player’s greatness. I really had no problem with that because NHL coaches knew more than we did, and no fewer than 8 coaches over a ten-year period made Gibbs their #1 defenseman nine times.
Thanks to pointed criticism over the past two years from TDMM, Gibbs’ name has become quite stigmatized around here. When you think of him, you probably think
“#1 defenseman on a bunch of horrible teams… so what does that even prove?†However, when you objectively look at the facts it is impossible to deny he is an excellent MLD defenseman:
- 9 times a #1 D-man, regardless of teams, is a feat worthy of note (speak up if you have a guy who did it even four times)
- Twice he received enough votes to get 11th and 13th in all-star voting (most MLD defensemen can’t say this)
- Anecdotal evidence via scouting reports and hockey cards leave no mystery as to how he played: He was tough, physical, strong defensively, but surprisingly also a good puck rusher who was calm with the puck.
- More importantly, these reports indicate he was often regarded as one of the best defensemen in the league or at least the best on his team, even well after his two seasons in the all-star voting (1975, 1976, 1979)
- Gibbs wasn’t always on strong teams, but who in this draft was? A deeper look at the numbers shows that although his teams were below average, that was mostly due to their offensive ineptitude. In total, Gibbs’ clubs were just 2% worse than average defensively.
- Gibbs was the defensive lynchpin of a very strong defensive team three times (either 1st in defensive ice time or within one minute of 1st) and another time for half a season. How many other MLD defensemen can make this claim? Willie Mitchell did it 8 times, Kim Johnsson 5 times, Mike O’Connell did it 4 times (always 2nd to Bourque), and Eric Weinrich did it three times. That’s all. This alone puts Gibbs in some very rare company at the MLD level and should dispel any doubts about his ability to play shutdown defense.
- in the 1972 season, Gibbs had proven himself as the top defenseman on a team that was 2nd best in GAA, before the WHA took any players away from the NHL. This significantly weakens the argument that the watered down NHL contributed to his "dominance" as a minute munching defenseman.
Gibbs is actually an above average MLD point producer too, scoring points percentages of 64, 64, 53, 47, 41, 40 (by my system) in the 1970s.
There are many other modern “hard rock†or “steady†defensive types in this MLD, many of whom I am a fan of – Jeff Beukeboom, Dave Maloney, Willie Mitchell, Rick Green, Dave Manson, Mike Milbury, Jason Smith, Brad Marsh, Scott Hannan, Bob Rouse, Joe Reekie, Brendan Witt, Garth Butcher, Hal Gill, Bob Plager, Dave Lewis, Arnie Brown, Doug Jarrett. None of them have Gibbs’ offensive and defensive record. Some have neither. And most never received recognition for their abilities via voting.
Let me demonstrate:
name| points percentages | #1 D-man | #1/1a def. D-man on elite def. team | voting/ASG (no double dipping)
Gibbs |
64, 64, 53, 47, 41, 40
|
9
|
3.5
|
11th, 13th
Beukeboom | 30, 22, 21, 20, 18, 17 | 0 | 0 | N/A
Maloney |
68, 64, 62, 52, 43, 48
| 0 | 0 | N/A
Mitchell | 36, 26, 22, 21, 20, 18 | 0 |
8
| N/A
Green | 56, 41, 36, 35, 34, 26 |
3
| 0 |
8th
Manson |
73, 60, 58, 53, 42, 40
|
4
| 0 |
ASG, ASG
Milbury | 48, 48, 32, 32, 30, 29 | 0 |
2
| N/A
Smith | 35, 34, 31, 28, 26, 24 | 0 | 1 | N/A
Marsh | 32, 27, 26, 22, 22, 18 | 0 | 0 | ASG*
Hannan | 39, 36, 34, 33, 32, 29 |
4
|
2.5
| N/A
Rouse | 30, 27, 26, 24, 23, 21 | 0 | 1 | N/A
Reekie | 22, 20, 19, 19, 18, 18 | 0 | 0 | N/A
Witt | 22, 21, 20, 17, 16, 14 | 0 | 0 | N/A
Butcher | 28, 27, 26, 25, 24, 24 | 0 |
2
| ASG
Gill | 37, 37, 30, 25, 19, 19 | 0 | 0 | N/A
Plager | 62, 39, 32, 22, 22, 20 | 1 | 1 | N/A
Lewis | 35, 32, 32, 29, 27, 25 | 0 | 0 | N/A
Brown |
82, 60, 50, 49, 45, 34
| 1 |
2
| 11th
Jarrett |
63, 57, 55, 53, 49, 46
| 0 | 0 |
7th, 11th, 14th
- In terms of offense, Gibbs has only four peers in this group: Brown, Jarrett, Maloney and Manson.
- Only three other players have been #1 NHL defensemen even three times in this group: Hannan 4 times (for very good teams), Manson 4 times (twice for good teams, twice for bad teams) and Rick Green 3 times (for horrible teams)
- Aside from Gibbs, only Milbury, Hannan, Butcher, Brown and (especially) Mitchell demonstrated a repeatable ability to anchor a very strong team defense.
- Only Green, Manson and Jarrett earned all-star or Norris recognition that stands out from this pack.
Gibbs is the only one on this list who “puts it all togetherâ€. He is not really a 3rd pairing defenseman in this draft, that is just where I am putting him on my team. But he’s worthy of vote consideration.
thank you 
